1. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Discourse. Whatever. Politicos chat nonsense. That is what they do. The thing where they are lying or disingenuous when their lips are moving works just as well even they are to be the next one caught in a hotel with 5 pool boys whilst harping about about the evils of dem gays in public.
    What actions were taken, things allowed to happen, crimes against, progress slowed or things that were blocked from happening in the last 4 years that could reasonably be tied to el presidente and things he has control over? Or indeed go more local if you want and the supreme court did not wade in to say "maybe not doing that".

    You can be concerned about the plights of others, however if said plights are generally the same as everybody else and you see no great ills befalling them or injustices done against them, and deem it unlikely any kind of backsliding will happen (most rights more recently afforded tend to be done at the highest levels and on the basis of fundamental aspects of law so undoing is probably hard) then it seems like an irrelevant factor.
     
  2. Plasmaster09

    Plasmaster09 Social Justice Potato
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    Overturned the military ban AND banned workplace discrimination for sexuality or gender identity! (I'm still pleasantly surprised that Biden decided to blast out executive actions on major issues as fast as he did!)
    Yeah... fuck the whole bathroom thing. Like seriously- anyone acting like it matters if the person in X bathroom has a schlong or not and claiming they're just trying to protect against creeps and perverts... are some of the biggest hypocrites this side of our recent ex-president.

    dude the entire point is that there ARE numerous injustices done against them
    have you listened to a word we've said
     
    Last edited by Plasmaster09, Jan 21, 2021
  3. Big Man Tyrone2

    Big Man Tyrone2 GBAtemp Fan
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    Why the fuck is Buttigieg Secretary of Transport? There doesn't really seem like much of a reason to choose him, other than the fact that he adds diversity to the Cabinet (which still isn't very good reasoning).

    Oh well, at least it wasn't Rahm Emanuel.
     
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  4. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    Missed that comment, so I'll respond to it now. The minimum wage shouldn't be increased, it should be abolished. The government setting an acceptable minimum wage disenfranchised workers at the bottom of the hierarchy by removing their bargaining power. The American left wing likes to pull out the Scandinavian model when they're discussing governmental safety nets, but when they do that they neglect to mention that Sweden, Denmark and Norway do not in fact have a mandated minimum wage - wages are negotiated via collective bargaining between employers and unions. The same model is applied in Switzerland, Finland and Iceland also. That bit they don't like, even though it's fundamental to how those economies operate. You'll notice that in 6 of those 6 cases the workers are better off. Of course this is a silly criticism since the U.S. still somehow accepts tipping as a replacement for a living wage (with support from workers in the service industry, mind - tipping is very lucrative), so I'm not expecting groundbreaking reform here. In any case, the average hourly wage of a teacher in the United States ranges between about $17 in Elementary School and $21 in High School, so there's a conundrum here - either teachers are criminally underpaid (they're not) or flipping burgers is not a marketable skill worth $20 an hour. Any implementation of a minimum wage system puts the relation between skill level and remuneration completely out of whack. Not that it really matters since many of the jobs discussed here will be increasingly replaced by automation, not to mention that only about 2% of American workers earn minimum wage or below. It's such a small fraction of the population that it makes the whole debate silly. The fight for a higher minimum wage is mentally stuck in the past, that's the kind of activism you'd see 40-50 years ago. There are better economic mechanisms available when it comes to wages, but what can you do when the Berner youths are following socialist santa who's stuck in the past himself.
     
  5. Darth Meteos

    OP Darth Meteos Entertainer
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    i love the tortured logic libertarians exposit with such smugness that leads them to the conclusion that corporations can be trusted to pay people enough money to live

    you are not a clown
    you are the whole circus
     
  6. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    You're welcome to disagree. It works in all of the countries the American left wing is desperately advocating we should all emulate. One of two statements is true - either this model is correct or the American left wing is wrong.
     
  7. Plasmaster09

    Plasmaster09 Social Justice Potato
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    dude, before we can even RISK abolishing minimum wage we need to fix most if not all of the other flavors of economic horsecrap that our nation is full of
    even if it would work, it wouldn't work yet
    also just because we want to emulate how those countries handle some things doesn't mean we want to do that
    also also, in what way, shape or form are all these ideas any better than just doing various things to outright take money from the rich and provide it to the poor? like even if all of this nonsense works as well as you claim, and IF it'd work as well for the US as you claim it would (which is extraordinarily unlikely since we're fucked up in many other ways), it'd probably be better to just do the basic "governmental Robin Hood" method because you don't have to rely on people or corporations doing things that are far too altruistic to ever expect them to actually do
     
  8. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    It's always funny to me when the mask slips and left-wingers admit that their economic models are based on Robin Hood. You guys are really keen on spending other people's money. My point wasn't that we should abolish minimum wage tomorrow (as great as that would be to a libertarian looney like myself), I was pointing out the cognitive dissonance that currently exists in left-wing thinking. Everybody's keen on following the Scandinavian model except for all of the elements conservatives have been advocating for since the dawn of time. Again, the minimum wage sets a minimum acceptable bar of remuneration which hits those at the bottom the hardest. There's no bargaining to be had here because the employer can just point a finger at the piece of paper and say "look, government said, therefore this is good enough". The small variation between one company and another can be attributed to them competing for labour, but overall they will cluster close to that mean because there is a mean to cluster around in the first place. That's neither here nor there though, the system's "not quite there" yet for such sweeping reform, as you say. It'd be equivalent to detonating a stick of dynamite directly under Sanders' third holiday home - a big mess.

    EDIT: The Robin Hood joke is actually funny on multiple levels. Robin Hood, a thief, wasn't stealing from the local jeweler and giving to the local baker, he was rebelling against excessive taxation by the government. He was taking money away from the state and giving it back to who it belonged to - the people. Barrel of laughs, every single time.
     
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  9. Plasmaster09

    Plasmaster09 Social Justice Potato
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    what mask tho
    take from rich
    give to poor
    that's it
    there's no cognitive dissonance, just basic solutions
    we're not "spending other people's money", we're literally just trying to redistribute things so that hopefully everyone has enough to fucking live on
    once we fix all the other economic problems inherent with capitalism, then MAYBE your ideas would work
    but until then, abolishing minimum wage is basically just going to make corporate grossness even worse since companies will basically all stick at the minimum they can get away with as opposed to anything sensible for the workers
     
  10. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    I mean, you're taking one person's money and spending it however you please (in this case burning it in clerical inefficiency so a small fraction gets to the needy). We have a term for that - theft. When you're in a room with three other people, you hold a vote and they democratically decide they're going to take your money, by force if necessary (try not paying taxes sometime, I hear it's a hoot!), that's called a mugging. Y'know, like Robin Hood, except you're not the Sherrif of Nottingham, aka "the state", you're just a guy. I'm sorry, the jokes just write themselves, you'll have to forgive me. In any case, that's all I had to say on the matter - minimum wage, not so great. There are better ways of controlling wages, negotiation being the chief one, with collective bargaining providing leverage. If I have to stand the existence of unions, they should at least do something productive. As a side note, you are always paid the minimum your employer can get away with, no matter what system you're in. Why introduce inefficiencies into the system, that's not how you run a company. The question is how to set that minimum in a way that benefits the worker without overburdening the employer. Since the contract is between the employer and the employee, they can figure it out, with some advice from their respective solicitors if necessary.
     
    Last edited by Foxi4, Jan 21, 2021
  11. monkeyman4412

    monkeyman4412 Gbatemp's ™ master
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    Are you mad?!
    Removing the minimum wage would literately make American lives complete ass. Companies have time and time again proven that we cannot trust them. Remember when children worked in factories and there wasn't a minimum wage and non humane work hours?
    Yeah people's lives were completely miserable.
    Allowing companies to decide to pay someone anything/no floor. Would mean we could return to a situation like that. And instead of one job running through loops. People have to go sustain off of multiple. It's in humane. People aren't supposed to work that way.
    People aren't even supposed to work 8 hours a day. It's an arbitrary number that was chosen. Many studies have shown our productivity drops off by the 4th hour of work in a day.
     
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  12. Plasmaster09

    Plasmaster09 Social Justice Potato
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    "Burning it in clerical inefficiency so a small fraction gets to the needy"? The idea would be to fix that by making sure that far more is given to said needy!
    If I was in a room with three people, I had millions while they had none, and they needed some of my money to survive, I'd gladly give them more than enough! And thing is, it's not three- it's millions, and I look at the many trying to take desperately needed surplus from the few as anything but theft.

    yeah the one major fault in Foxi's plan here is that the changes needed first that I've mentioned amount to fundamentally altering our entire country and basically sucking as much toxic capitalistic greed out as possible
    giving more riches and/or power to the rich and/or powerful, whether people or corporations, DOES NOT END WELL
     
    Last edited by Plasmaster09, Jan 21, 2021
  13. monkeyman4412

    monkeyman4412 Gbatemp's ™ master
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    I have a term for what you stated here
    it's called bullshit.
    If anything, it's the rich, yes, the rich stealing from the poor.
    How?
    Well for starters minimum wage has not been updated federally for ages. (should be closer to 25 dollars per hour to follow the rate of productivity, the 90% does that labor. not the 10% not the 1%)
    Second many of these individuals are making ungodly amounts of money while there are people starving or homeless, along with people who live pay check to pay check. Or even more fun, paying people less than a dollar over seas in countries they can take advantage of.
     
  14. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    1. You accidentally discovered charity. Congratulations.
    2. There is no "surplus". That's a made-up term to trick you into thinking that other people's money doesn't actually belong to them, so you don't feel bad about taking it. There's no "surplus", only profit - the reason why anyone engages in any business activity ever. That's not a "surplus", that's money earned.

    You can't steal from the poor - the poor have nothing that can be stolen. You can argue that the poor are underpaid, but that's a different discussion, and one that doesn't have an obvious answer like you expect it to. I don't have a problem with other people making more money than me - by ungodly margins or otherwise. That's not my money, or my problem.
     
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  15. Plasmaster09

    Plasmaster09 Social Justice Potato
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    >calls the idea of taxing the shit out of the rich in order to end or at least dramatically decrease poverty "theft"
    >advocates for abolishing minimum wage
    >actually trusts giant greedy corporations to use basically complete economic control for the good of the consumer
    gotta love libertarianism (which has gone from "what anarchism actually is basically" to "far-right plutocracy enthusiasm"), advocating for the economic, social and personal rights... of the uber-rich elite that already have all those rights due to having too much fucking money

    first off, by "surplus" I mean "money that the person doesn't need, could still be pretty damn well off without and that is needed far, far more by others".
    second off, 'earned' is wishful thinking. there's a reason the just-world fallacy is a fallacy- if you seriously think that all, or even most, of the world's richest truly earned every drop of the money they practically shower in, you have another think coming.
    third off, the poor ARE underpaid, to a degree that might as well be stealing- and that's not even getting into the various flavors of unethical bullshit practices done by major corporations for the sole purpose of fucking over their workers.
     
    Last edited by Plasmaster09, Jan 21, 2021
  16. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Listened to many things. Most of it is vague and wishy washy.

    From where I sit the gay alphabet soup crowd is sitting pretty.

    While I would say marriage is a stupid idea and I would rather the government leave it with as much legal status as a child's pinky promise then some flavour of it has been recognised for years (though I would agree civil union was sub par in a few ways, and the older ones of power of attorney and wills and whatnot were not ideal), and the final thing of it being called government marriage has been done for some years now and under no threat that I can see.

    If I as a business wonk was to fire you, refuse to hire you, refuse to sell you/rent you my house, abuse you or similar then I would get a slap. Quite OK with that one, and does not look to be under any threat.

    Ditto education types.

    If crimes happen to people in such crowds then they get investigated rather than swept under the rug a la the 40s through 60s.

    Such crowds seem to be able to run for political office, and make it.

    Such crowds seem to be able to get the same government assistance programs and jobs in the government.

    What passes for healthcare in the US seems fairly agreeable here if https://www.healthcare.gov/transgender-health-care/ is to be believed. Not as nice as some places but hardly a horror show.

    Gendered toilets seems to be a thing brought up, however actual arrests, never mind prosecutions that go anywhere/convictions, seem few on the ground. To that end sure get rid of the stupid legacy and unenforced law, as far as it being a great injustice then... harder sell there.

    The university stuff seemed like a needed shake up of the law with the "I don't exist" set largely being hyperbolic at very best from what I saw.

    So yeah I am back to give me nice examples of things done, not done, slowed, deliberately poorly implemented or similar that had net results (or maybe would have had they not been smacked down by a court looking at the whole equal under the law thing) that can be reasonably attributed to the colour of the tie worn by the current el presidente or indeed state government if it is one of those places where things oscillate between the various parties (granted California, very much not a right wing state, seemed to need to get a racist law change smacked down so I guess there is that). Something that would have it make real sense to keep a finger on the pulse of the politics of the country or the area for the sake of your well being, as opposed to doing a bit of a side hustle, putting some more time in your main hustle, learning something, spending time with friends/family, exercising, doing a hobby or similar. The sort of thing that might see someone not pick an area to live/stay if they grew up there, or up sticks and move, on that basis if the other mob gets in rather than them being piss poor at economics or something.
    Such things can happen -- the situation with abortion being made a legally difficult as possible in those places that variously lean religious right wing for no great reason other than being something of an end run around firm legal interpretation/standard handed down from the supreme court. As far as something like it befalling any flavour of minority, much less the gay alphabet soup lot, I am still at a loss.
    I saw a list of executive orders discussed earlier. Something like that but for examples in this would do in the absence of some nice research for a starting point. If I go looking at outcomes I don't really see a notable variation, if I go looking at access to services/positions I don't see it... at this point it almost feels like trying to prove a negative, however absence of proof is not proof of absence so I once more ask.

    From where I sit if the US has an equality problem it is not a minorities issue (be it race, sex, whether you don't care about going for a roll in the hay, whether you like to fumble matching genitals or wish you had the opposite flavour of them) but a financial one -- rarely is your life hard because you are a minority as much as because you are poor and upward mobility is harder than it might be elsewhere. I would much rather funds, resources and efforts be put into fighting poverty than fighting perceived slights against minorities, most of which I would say are imaginary or miscategorising the situation at very best and thus most efforts towards it are burning money spinning wheels and chasing ghosts of people long dead. Politicos changing has little effect here either, whether they would get you hooked on handouts or rip the rug out from under them (the abilities for either to come to the fore also being minimal), which is also where I was at the start -- whinge down the pub or online about politicos if you want but one changing makes little difference to you, you doing something that improves your lot in life for you (see earlier list) likely to be a far more useful use of time and thus back to the earlier thing politics can safely be ignored or treated as mere entertainment unless it is your job or something.
     
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  17. monkeyman4412

    monkeyman4412 Gbatemp's ™ master
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    Charity does not, and will not fix the issues stated.
    you are relying wayyy too damn much on thinking that companies are going to go change their mode of thinking.
    Any wealth they send while you can argue significant, really isn't when you find out how much they make and how much of a fraction it is.
    Ah so in other words.
    The poor is owned by the top.
    Mhmm, yup, that explains late stage capitalism in a nutshell.
    Thanks for making my argument that in a capitalist society, it is slave labor with extra steps
    Since slaves can't own anything. Says the man who owned the slaves, and are taking the fruits of their labor.
     
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  18. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    Well, unlike left-wing thinkers I'm aware that this isn't a zero sum game, so I don't accept the notion of "making too much money". That's not a thing. I do know what envy looks like though, and I think I can identify it fairly well.

    I don't remember a time when Poland participated in any slave trade. To my knowledge that was never a thing. Workers are not slaves, but they do engage in consensual contracts that they are expected to fulfill in exchange for an agreed upon wage. That's the opposite of slavery, by definition.
     
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  19. KingVamp

    KingVamp Haaah-hahahaha!
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    I see no reason why unions can't bargain for above the minimum wage.
     
  20. Plasmaster09

    Plasmaster09 Social Justice Potato
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    ..."unlike whoever I disagree with, I know how this works"
    yeah right
    wanting the average person to be able to live a decent life and make a decent living isn't envy, it's sanity
    basically all you've said boils down to "rich people earned it (with an unspoken corollary that poor people deserve it), the government shouldn't be trusted to balance people economically but major corporations defined and succeeding from pure greed SHOULD"
     
    Last edited by Plasmaster09, Jan 21, 2021
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