MAGA Round 2?

[Clydefrosch]

Yeah, I can't wait until 80+% of my income is stolen from me through taxes to pay for this. I get a warm feeling in my stomach imagining all the anchor babies, abortions, and sex change operations I will be responsible to pay for. Oh, I forgot about also having to eat my cats and dogs just to remember what food tasted like after we become a socialist country. Maybe I'll be able to sneak into Mexico, so I can work for less pesos than the legal citizens there.

Umm, no, Trump will win and everything will be great.

yeah, like there's any income to take from your unemployed 13 year old ass.

@Xzi
Hey guys, I just decided to join your side. Would you please DM me the scripts and list of talking points we are supposed to use against the right wing Nazi scum? I lost the email from the DNC. I swear I'm not lying. Looking forward to working with you and punching those Nazi bastards.

This one is especially hilarious considering you've literally been copy and pasting the literal presidents own propaganda list of non-accomplishments and talking points since page one.

 

[Xzi]

I never said America didn't have socialist policies. You claimed that "Universal Healthcare is not socialism".

I don't believe it is. There are several proposals for reaching universal healthcare coverage, some of them still involve paying insurance premiums and deductibles just as we do now. Medicare for all would just change the way we pay for healthcare insurance, in the form of taxes. Either way, it's not a redistribution of wealth, and it's not a seizing of the means of production, so it wouldn't fall under the definition of socialism.

 

[tabzer]

As long as "universal" is in the name it's going to be socialist in nature. It prioritizes the "whole" over the individual. And that "whole", which is in charge of redistribution, tends to be a smaller centralized group of people who tend to corrupt themselves with having too much power. As long as your model is opt-in, I can't be against it.

 

[supersonicwaffle]

Keeping jobs in the US is a notable thing. It's a long term goal, though. The import taxes help on short term, but on the long term, those US citizens find themselves out of a job because they can't export to other countries who've followed the import taxes example (yeah...that's what these "treaty" things aren't to be taken lightly).

Would be interested to hear how you arrive at this conclusion. Extremely high import taxes have been employed by the EU for ages, commonly referred to as "Anti Dumping Duty". One industry where things are pretty extreme is the bicycle industry where the duty for imports from china is 48.5% and as you should know as a belgian the EU bicycle industry is doing well, EU bike exports make up around the same percentage as chinese exports, as a passionate cyclist however I would bet money that in the mid to high end market chinese bikes are pretty irrelevant, especially in the EU becacuse of import taxes, the only thing I can recall where chinese components have become relevant here are deep section carbon wheels, there's more relevancy with regards to open mould frames in the US though.

Like it or not, but outlawing abortion pretty much IS killing the US. I'm not kidding on this in the slightest. Just compare the crime rates from a state with the time they legalized abortion. It's not as fun to hear, but unwanted children have a much higher chance of becoming a criminal.

I take it you're referring to the Donahue-Levitt hypothesis which is quite controversial.
The study was originally published in 2001 and recently in 2019 there was an updated paper published that claimed their hypothesis held up.
The original study was for example criticized for the following:

• crime rates dropped most significantly in older population which is completely counter to the hypothesis
• Donahue and Levitt used arrest data to arrive at their conclusions while arrests for murder often happen a significant time period after the actual murder. One of their critics claimed that adjusting for this reversed their findings (meaning that legalized abortion lead to higher murder rates among the affected generation)
• Donahue and Levitt used arrest totals and not per capita arrests, a critic claimed that using per capita numbers the effect disappeared entirely
• WHO concludes laws against abortion do not reduce incidence of abortion meaning the hypothesis that unwanted children are responsible for crime can't be true

I assume you read an article about the updated paper recently?

 

[Xzi]

As long as "universal" is in the name it's going to be socialist in nature. It prioritizes the "whole" over the individual. And that "whole", which is in charge of redistribution, tends to be a smaller centralized group of people who tend to corrupt themselves with having too much power. As long as your model is opt-in, I can't be against it.

As I was saying before, I think it depends on how broad a brush you want to paint with. If you consider taxation itself to be socialism, then yeah, medicare for all would be socialist in that same manner. I don't think taxation is a socialist concept by nature, though, and I think universal healthcare is just the bare minimum of what a nation should be providing its citizens in terms of living assistance. Medicare would be the most fiscally efficient means of providing that for the US.

 

[tabzer]

Collecting and enforcing income tax, fore example, was definitely a socialist decision made by the US in the 1900's. It is a trend, that America is becoming more socialist over time. It is a phase of its decomposition.

"Universal healthcare for all" is a broad stroke. I'd like everyone to be happy and healthy, but that is a non-enforceable fantasy. People must be willing to pursue the outcome of their own good health, and legislation should not be imposed to block them; but it is, and it causes the lack of access which makes healthcare "unaffordable".

A mandate forcing people to pay into a universal healthcare is a only a temporary band-aid for deeper issues.

 

[Xzi]

Collecting and enforcing income tax, fore example, was definitely a socialist decision made by the US in the 1900's. It is a trend, that America is becoming more socialist over time. It is a phase of its decomposition.

Taxation has been a part of every capitalist nation in history though. And the issue revolutionaries took with Britain wasn't even the taxation itself, but rather taxation without representation.

"Universal healthcare for all" is a broad stroke. I'd like everyone to be happy and healthy, but that is a non-enforceable fantasy.

How is it a fantasy? Every other first-world nation already manages it just fine, and as it stands now, many Americans are forced to take advantage of other countries' healthcare systems in order to receive affordable care.

 

[tabzer]

Taxation has been a part of every capitalist nation in history though.

That doesn't change anything about what I said.

And the issue revolutionaries took with Britain wasn't even the taxation itself, but rather taxation without representation.

I didn't address anything about America's conflict with Britain, as that happened over 100 years prior to the institution of income-tax.

How is it a fantasy?

You can't force people to be happy, just as you can't force people to be charitable.

Every other first-world nation already manages it just fine

Something something crack-pipe.

 

[Xzi]

That doesn't change anything about what I said.

I didn't address anything about America's conflict with Britain, as that happened over 100 years prior to the institution of income-tax.

Taxation is taxation, no need to split hairs. It's hard to deny that taxation is just as ingrained in the capitalist system as it is in any socialist system, if not more so. More relevant is where the taxes go after they're collected.

You can't force people to be happy, just as you can't force people to be charitable.

Something something crack-pipe.

I wasn't referring to the happiness portion of your comment, that should've been obvious. Healthcare is more about staying alive than staying happy, though tangentially, people are obviously going to be happier when they don't have to consent to crippling debt for a single hospital stay or necessary surgery.

 

[tabzer]

Idk of a "pure capitalist system" that hasn't had socialist qualities.

 

[Fugelmir]

Taxation has been a part of every capitalist nation in history though. And the issue revolutionaries took with Britain wasn't even the taxation itself, but rather taxation without representation.


How is it a fantasy? Every other first-world nation already manages it just fine, and as it stands now, many Americans are forced to take advantage of other countries' healthcare systems in order to receive affordable care.

I dunno what you're talking about. You're definitely wrong if you're talking about Canada. Our health care system is in shambles and the opposite is the case. Family doctors can't take new patients, emergency rooms are a disaster. Need an actual transplant? I hope not because most big cities don't have the facilities and you'll need to be air lifted to a major city at your expense.

Open border policies combined with an aging workforce tapped our resources dry.

 

[Xzi]

Idk of a "pure capitalist system" that hasn't had socialist qualities.

That's because a 'pure capitalist' system is a Ponzi scheme. It quickly collapses in on itself or becomes a dictatorship. If we're defining any sense of camaraderie or community as socialism, then literally all of civilization has been socialist.

I dunno what you're talking about. You're definitely wrong if you're talking about Canada. Our health care system is in shambles and the opposite is the case. Family doctors can't take new patients, emergency rooms are a disaster. Need an actual transplant? I hope not because most big cities don't have the facilities and you'll need to be air lifted to a major city at your expense.

Open border policies combined with an aging workforce tapped our resources dry.

You say that, yet a lot of people living in the Northern US travel to Canada to purchase live-saving medications at a fraction of what they cost here. Diabetics in other parts of the US are dropping like flies from rationing insulin, and our national debt is $22 trillion. Canada's national debt is a mere $700 billion. Canada's GDP is also a fraction of what ours is, but that just means there are even fewer excuses not to take care of our own citizens. The money is already being spent, just in the wrong places.

 

[morvoran]

Zogby: ‘Poor performances’ of Democrats boost Trump’s approval to 51%, up with blacks and Hispanics

Looks like Trump is doing pretty good with ever growing base of supporters.

Spoiler

OH, Trump is going to win in 2020!!!!

 

[sarkwalvein]

I wonder why in the temps most politics discussions are carried out between fanatics and idiots on both/all sides.
And with this I don't want to offend the topic creator, he is just trying to start a conversation in a civilized way.

One would expect to get some interesting discussion afterwards, with some real opinions portrayed as opinions and not something else, some data/statistics based on facts portrayed as that and not something else, some civil conversation.

But all you get is arrogance and fanaticism, people that show their ignorance (as lack of humbleness) putting themselves in a weird make believe position of superiority, and screaming their "truth" like children in kindergarten fighting each other about what is the best ice cream flavor.

I don't mean to say there are no people discussing topics in a civil way either, but the most vocal people are the fanatics and they make browsing through the thread 90% a waste of time unless you are into childish tantrums.

 

[morvoran]

@sarkwalvein That would be a good topic for another thread, let's keep this thread about Trump and how great he is. Thanks.

 

[tabzer]

If we're defining any sense of camaraderie or community as socialism

Lol. Taxation is friendship. Nice motto.

If I HAVE to choose between the Antifa guy and the Maga guy, I'd choose the Maga guy.

 

[Xzi]

Lol. Taxation is friendship. Nice motto.

If I HAVE to choose between the Antifa guy and the Maga guy, I'd choose the Maga guy.

I wasn't referring to taxation there or I would've stated as much. And I think we all could've guessed you prefer fascism to anti-fascism without you spelling it out for us. Not that anyone should be forced into a binary choice between the two, but history does tend to repeat itself.

 

[morvoran]

I wasn't referring to taxation there or I would've stated as much. And I think we all could've guessed you prefer fascism to anti-fascism without you spelling it out for us. Not that anyone should be forced into a binary choice between the two, but history does tend to repeat itself.

You know that antifa is using the name sarcastically, right? The MAGA guy is all about freedom of speech for all and unity of all people regardless of political affiliation, race, or ethnicity (as long as you're not an enemy of those things).

By the way, how was the rally in Portland today? How many nazis did you beat with a bike lock?

 

[Xzi]

The MAGA guy is all about freedom of speech for all and unity of all people regardless of political affiliation, race, or ethnicity (as long as you're not an enemy of those things).

Just like fascism, MAGA is all about criminalizing dissent. You're not fooling anybody.

 

[morvoran]

Just like fascism, MAGA is all about criminalizing dissent. You're not fooling anybody.

Any examples of that being true or was that a talking point on your leftist list of propaganda? I believe it is the leftist's in Google and facebook censoring conservative accounts. CNN and MSNBC refusing to show news reflecting how the left is terrorizing the right. It is antifa that beats anybody who does not go along with their rhetoric 100%.

If you bring up some guy running people over in Charlottesville, please at least acknowledge that he was being attacked first trying to get away from the rabid mob hitting his car.

Trump is all about uniting people. He has never brought up race in any of his tweets or policies. He is for the better good of ALL AMERICANS, not just the POC's. The demonrats are all about separating the country by color codes.