Homebrew RetroArch - A new multi-system emulator

[LibretroRetroArc]

Glad eke eke was able to clear things up for you. Hopefully it will help for future RetroArch releases.

No - this was part of the e-mail that we already knew about a few days ago.

It does NOT help anything so far other than knowing that this whole 'Original Resolution' thing is one big figment of one's imagination and it was just misadvertised - essentially it's just upscaling and a bit of filtering magic thrown in there that might 'look' close to a 'native resolution' (whatever that is - again, SNES rendered at 256 x 224 for 99% of all games and for 99% of the time - that's not even close to '240p'). Essentially it just boils down to 'I like how this looks on my TV' - because 'native' this sure as hell is not under the hood or you'd have to define how it is 'native' and for which system.

So really - if you dislike shaders and upscaling on PS3/360, you might as well dislike this - other than the fact that you're running at a x240 resolution, it is really the same.

 

[Charco]

Cool.

 

[Hielkenator]

Nevertheless, most new TVs have problems displaying weird resolutions like that. For instance the Mega Man X Collection will not work on most TVs unless you either have a composite cable, or a way to convert the signal with a device. It's fine just the way it is on my TV, only the true purists will complain.

You've said this in previous posts before, but I have never seen anyone else post about the problem of displaying 240p on their lcd.

 

[Toad King]

You've said this in previous posts before, but I have never seen anyone else post about the problem of displaying 240p on their lcd.

The Wii can't display a 240p signal. It only outputs 480i (576i for PAL) or 480p.

 

[Hielkenator]

No - this was part of the e-mail that we already knew about a few days ago.

It does NOT help anything so far other than knowing that this whole 'Original Resolution' thing is one big figment of one's imagination and it was just misadvertised - essentially it's just upscaling and a bit of filtering magic thrown in there that might 'look' close to a 'native resolution' (whatever that is - again, SNES rendered at 256 x 224 for 99% of all games and for 99% of the time - that's not even close to '240p'). Essentially it just boils down to 'I like how this looks on my TV' - because 'native' this sure as hell is not under the hood or you'd have to define how it is 'native' and for which system.

So really - if you dislike shaders and upscaling on PS3/360, you might as well dislike this - other than the fact that you're running at a x240 resolution, it is really the same.

sigh....to get scanlines on a crt tv that is capable of a max resolution of 640 x 480, you'll need to loose half of the lines.
Hence the name double strike/ 240p, the scanlines are actually the missing lines, that are basicly artifacts that only happen on a crt tech tv.
WHY THE FUZZ.

Just for the record, why don't you guys add a double strike function?
You guys know the resolution of the original system, why not implement it?
Standard 480p, if you want scanlines on a CRT, enable Double strike ( native out put resolution.

I think your guys should ditch the scaling function instead. I sucks and srews up pixels, 1/2 of the time 0.0 is'nt what you'de it is.

 

[Hielkenator]

The Wii can't display a 240p signal. It only outputs 480i (576i for PAL) or 480p.

Try megaman X collection, and various other emus.
I think you know better....

 

[the_randomizer]

You've said this in previous posts before, but I have never seen anyone else post about the problem of displaying 240p on their lcd.

That's what I get for getting a lower-end college budget TV. My parent's Sony Bravia LCD can play it just fine, but my TV does not, the signal is all stretched and distorted. It's more common than people realize, as several brands cannot display 240p on their LCDs.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=434900

and

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25938

I'm not the only one to have this issue. I don't care about 240, I don't want the emulators to have to force people to use it. Those who want to use it, fine, but for those who don't, let them use whatever the hell they want. 640 x 480 is good for me. It's not my cables that are at fault I have tried more than one. The only workaround is using composite cables, but let's be honest, who uses composite cables on an non-CRT HDTV? Either that or a device that converts the signal before it reaches the TV, but paying $50-$70 for a device just to get one game to work? No thanks. It's my TV at fault and not my cables. I'm not buying a new TV. Nope, not doing it.

Try megaman X. collection, and various other emus.

Yep, it's capable, but only if your TV supports it.

 

[Hielkenator]

Happy to have my SAMMY

 

[Toad King]

Try megaman X. collection, and various other emus.

Still isn't 240p. Most older consoles (and I think the Wii) fakes it by sending interlaced signals, but with both fields overlapping instead of alternating. It's non-standard to NTSC which is why some LCDs probably fail on them, but they're not 240p.

 

[the_randomizer]

Happy to have my SAMMY

Way to rub it in. To quote a post from Racketboy forums "Only solution is to buy an upscaler to properly recognize it as 240p or use S-video." So unless I get rich, it ain't happening. Most manufacturers don't list 240 as a supported resolution or feature. Good luck finding a list.

Still isn't 240p. Most older consoles (and I think the Wii) fakes it by sending interlaced signals, but with both fields overlapping instead of alternating. It's non-standard to NTSC which is why some LCDs probably fail on them, but they're not 240p.

It isn't my cable at fault as it works on my parent's Sony Bravia just fine. I need an upscaling device to have it work, therefore, it's not worth spending money to get one game to work. I have the games on emulators anyway. How do I know whether or not a TV I get supports it? I derailed the topic, so I'm going to stop it. No one's TV is perfect, not everyone's TV supports unorthodox resolutions or scaling, so damned if we do, damned if we don't. Let people use what they want, RetroArch should allow selectable resolutions and no one resolution be forced.

 

[LibretroRetroArc]

sigh....to get scanlines on a crt tv that is capable of a max resolution of 640 x 480, you'll need to loose half of the lines.
Hence the name double strike/ 240p, the scanlines are actually the missing lines, that are basicly artifacts that only happen on a crt tech tv.
WHY THE FUZZ.

You don't seem to get it really.

Output resolution of the Wii: 720 x 240.

Original game resolution in framebuffer: (take Mega Man X) - 256 x224 (on SNES)
Way to get that to look 'decent' in double strike: upscale to 512 x 224 - rely on 'GX hardware filtering'.

How is this 'native' or 'original resolution' by any stretch of the imagination? It is just plain simply a bit of upscaling and filtering magic - a big fat hack. You're not getting an 'original picture' doing this.

In essence - you're just telling me you like how this looks on your CRT TV - that's it really. There's no 'Original' or 'Native' about it.

 

[Toad King]

You don't seem to get it really.

Output resolution of the Wii: 720 x 240.

Original game resolution in framebuffer: (take Mega Man X) - 256 x224 (on SNES)
Way to get that to look 'decent' in double strike: upscale to 512 x 224 - rely on 'GX hardware filtering'.

How is this 'native' or 'original resolution' by any stretch of the imagination? It is just plain simply a bit of upscaling and filtering magic - a big fat hack. You're not getting an 'original picture' doing this.

You forgot a step:

* Upscale 512x224 image to 640x224 so it has correct aspect ratio on screen

So yeah it'll never look the same as the actual console.

 

[Hielkenator]

You don't seem to get it really.

Output resolution of the Wii: 720 x 240.

Original game resolution in framebuffer: (take Mega Man X) - 256 x224 (on SNES)
Way to get that to look 'decent' in double strike: upscale to 512 x 224 - rely on 'GX hardware filtering'.

How is this 'native' or 'original resolution' by any stretch of the imagination? It is just plain simply a bit of upscaling and filtering magic - a big fat hack. You're not getting an 'original picture' doing this.

In essence - you're just telling me you like how this looks on your CRT TV - that's it really. There's no 'Original' or 'Native' about it.

You do understand how crt's work, do you?
It's not how the console does it, it how the crt handles the signal.

 

[Hielkenator]

You forgot a step:

* Upscale 512x224 image to 640x224 so it has correct aspect ratio on screen

So yeah it'll never look the same as the actual console.

This is Gamecube game.

 

[LibretroRetroArc]

This is Gamecube game.

You do understand how crt's work, do you?

Do you have any programming knowledge of any kind? Or how a 256 x 224 image upscaled to 512 x 224 and then to 640 x 224 is not 'original' or 'native resolution' especially when using an output resolution of 720 x 240?

Seriously, you're just telling me 'I like how this looks on my CRT TV' - there's nothing wrong with that - I like how shaders makes my games look on a 1080p LCD TV as well.

 

[Hielkenator]

Do you have any programming knowledge of any kind? Or how a 256 x 224 image upscaled to 512 x 224 and then to 640 x 224 is not 'original' or 'native resolution' especially when using an output resolution of 720 x 240?

Seriously, you're just telling me 'I like how this looks on my TV' - there's nothing wrong with that - I like how shaders makes my games look on a 1080p LCD TV as well.

No, no, not using shaders, comparing emus and reading the signal my tv tells its getting fed.
A progressive 240 p signal on a standard crt will give you scanlines, or any resolution that is handled the same way. ( lines doubled )
It worked fine on your emulator to be honest, as long as you set the resolution to match.
I really don't see a problem here, I'm happy.

 

[LibretroRetroArc]

No, no, not using shaders, comparing emus and reading the signal my tv tells its getting fed.
A progressive 240 p signal on a standard crt will give you scanlines, or any resolution that is handled the same way. ( lines doubled )
It worked fine on your emulator to be honest, as long as you set the resolution to match.
I really don't see a problem here, I'm happy.

We can either keep it and say 'Use at your own discretion!' or we can remove it altogether to prevent issues where all of a sudden after switching resolutions it cripples performance and it stays that way even in the Wii System mode until you reset the console (as one other person has reported here).

Really, you can understand my concern about keeping this code in, right?

It might be that it's a PAL-only issue. Fortunately, I am able to do some tests there being from PAL land.

Try setting your resolution at 576p in the Wii Settings and tell me if you experience any of the same problems as that other guy.

 

[Jacobeian]

Well, to be fair, the 256 pixels output by a SNES are also streched, at least they appear that way on TV screen to fill the 4:3 aspect ratio, except it's done through the analog TV signal, not digitally...and it can be very fuzzy as well. Personally, i still have mine hooked to a CRT and i barely see any difference when using Wii Snes emulators in double strike or original mode on the same TV. So yes it's an awesome feature that is very close, only those who never tried it or do not have a CRT anymore could say the opposite. It does not matter if pixels are upscaled, as long as filtering is disabled, when doubling, it will be two similar pixels forming a single larger pixel, just like how it is in the real snes analog signal.

@toadking: you are wrong, the Wii is perfectly able to output a true non-interlaced 240 p signal, it makes no sense to say it's an interlaced signal with adjusted timings because that IS the definition of 240p. This kind of signal has never really been specified in the first place (interlaced was) so even old consoles were adjusting video signal timings to get a flicker-free "progressive" video, the Wii is no different

 

[Hielkenator]

We can either keep it and say 'Use at your own discretion!' or we can remove it altogether to prevent issues where it cripples the performance of their entire Wii (as one other person has reported here).

Really, you can understand my concern about keeping this code in, right?

It might be that it's a PAL-only issue. Fortunately, I am able to do some tests there being from PAL land.

Try setting your resolution at 576p in the Wii Settings and tell me if you experience any of the same problems as that other guy.

This isn't possibe I expect you mean 576i?
What was the problem?

If this guy had problems in the process of swithing between the Wii video modes in conjunction with component leads, it a common problem and not retroarch related.

 

[Hielkenator]

Well, to be fair, the 256 pixels output by a SNES are also streched, at least they appear that way on TV screen to fill the 4:3 aspect ratio, except it's done through the analog TV signal, not digitally...and it can be very fuzzy as well. Personally, i still have mine hooked to a CRT and i barely see any difference when using Wii Snes emulators in double strike or original mode on the same TV. So yes it's an awesome feature that is very close, only those who never tried it or do not have a CRT anymore could say the opposite. It does not matter if pixels are upscaled, as long as filtering is disabled, when doubling, it will be two similar pixel forming a single larger pixel, just like with a real snes.

@toadking: you are wrong, the Wii is perfectly able to output a true non-interlaced 240 p signal, it makes no sense to say it's an interlaced signal with adjusted timings because that IS the definition of 240p. This kind of signal has never really been specified in the first place (interlaced was) so even old consoles were adjusting video signal timings to get a flicker-free "progressive" video, the Wii is no different

This is exactly how it is.
And it's the natural way why scanlines exsist, or do not exsist ( it's how you look at it..)