GCW Zero Meets Its Goal, supported games announced

[fermio100]

No, no, no - Apple would just make it "a bit longer" than the previous version - be fair.

I'll tell you when mine arrive. I bought it because I love older arcade games (Black Tiger, Darius, Extermination, Galaga 88), Genesis and some SNES. I own a Dingoo and play it until today.

 

[KazoWAR]

Here is SOM resized to 256x224. It does not look as bad as you make it out to be, sure it it not perfect, but its not bad either.

 

[Foxi4]

There's always the miniHDMI output - I'm sure the console displays things normally through that and only downscales graphics for the main screen.

Personally, I think that "low resolution" is only a factor when the screen is physically big - what really matters is whether it's densly populated or not, and considering the dimensions of this thing, it probably is. Resolution alone won't show how the thing "looks like" in real life, it doesn't make or break a system - you have to take the physical size of the screen into consideration.

 

[Rydian]

Here is SOM resized to 256x224. It does not look as bad as you make it out to be, sure it it not perfect, but its not bad either.

The W, N, and M all look the same, and that's just a start.

I'd rather not play RPGs like I have to read Valwin's posts.







It's been ages since anybody made a valwin typing reference, so...

 

[Foxi4]

I'd rather not play RPGs like I have to read Valwin's posts. It's been ages since anybody made a valwin typing reference, so...

This thing has more horsepower than the DS, maybe it could pull off an Un-Valwinator...?

Un-ValwinatorZero... I like the sound of that...

 

[Another World]

rydian, you really would pass on this system because it has issues with 5-10 games? what about the thousands of other gaming experiences it will provide for you?

-another world

 

[Hop2089]

I like the fact that Cave's 1st generation board is supported on the GCW, Esp Ra.De ftw I wonder if it could do the 1st gen PGM stuff since the architecture is about the same, I'd love to play Espgaluda on GCW not to mention the ultimate torture of early Cave shmups Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou.

 

[Rydian]

rydian, you really would pass on this system because it has issues with 5-10 games? what about the thousands of other gaming experiences it will provide for you?

-another world

If those 5-10 games are games I plan to play and the other games are games I will not, then yes. As I would just use this for emulation and not the ports, it seems to be the case here.

I mean that's like asking if I'd break up with a girl just because she won't cuddle me, when there's tons of board games we can play together. I care about the first thing a lot, but barely care about the second.

Going over various lists of games that use higher resolutions, a lot of them (not just SD3/SOM) are ones I played when I was younger and want to play again. Lufia II, Kirby's Dream Land 3, DBZ Super Botoudenwtf 2/3, and possibly more*. These aren't just any random no-name games, the Lufia series got continued on the DS and then 1/2 (forgot which) actually got a full-on remake, the DBZ fighting games are interesting for fans of the series, Kirby's Dream Land is a kirby game, Jurassic Park comes up because it's actually a (relatively) decent movie tie-in a lot of people had as kids... and not to mention the popularity of SoM/SD3.

*Not Jurassic Park, I never really liked it for some reason.

Hell, the authors of BSNES/Higan and ZSNES talked about filtering games back down to 256 width looking bad and needing to keep the final display at a higher resolution in this thread.
http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5493

And hey, remember that recommend I wrote about the BoFII retranslation, where the author came and commented too?
http://gbatemp.net/threads/gbatemp-recommends-revival-008.315188/
The retranslation adds in hi-res mode for the special effects.
http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3217
And even he's commenting that outputting the final display at 256 pixels wide looks worse.

So it looks like I can add the Breath Of Fire II retranslation to the list of stuff I want to play that won't display properly...

This device is supposed to fix the mistakes of the previous chinese devices, but by cheaping out on the display, they're making the same type of mistake. "It'll play less games properly, but it's cheaper". Hey, does that sound familiar?

"Not including an SA-1 chip will make this SNES cart cheaper and only a few games won't run properly."
"Going with slower flash stroage will make this tablet cheaper and only a few games won't run properly."
"Not including RTS will make this GBA cart cheaper and only a few games won't run properly."
etc.

 

[DominoBright]

I wonder if they tried those games on the SNES emulator.

Me personally, Star Fox and Shantae running really well has sold me on this device. I plan on selling my PSP Go once I can buy this.

 

[Another World]

for everything the gcw gets right, i'm not about to argue its uselessness based on a handful of rpgs and their font on a lower resolution. its a tad upsetting that you would so easily write off everything positive about the system based on these games. i am genuinely confused how easy that was for you. how can you expect it to get everything right? higher res screens have already been used on the chinachip devices and they always had the same negative end result. the gcw picked a happy medium (res, aspect, size, manufacture, brightness, color, quality, etc) that addresses a large majority of the complaints, regardless of its ability to produce a 1:1 experience 100% of the time. i would ask for you to visit #gcw on freenode and talk with the developers. I have my suspicions that their choice of lcd is not directly related to cost.

-another world

 

[Costello]

thanks for the updates AW, I am starting to get a little enthusiastic about this in spite of the low res screen
it's still higher-res than the NDS screen (or one thereof)
and because after all if this was openly designed for emulation purposes, we can expect good things from emulators
software wise I will wait to see if emulators live up to expectations, if that is the case I might consider acquiring one...

 

[KingVamp]

While this sounds good, I going to wait a few years for the gap to cross over to the next gen ( as in dreamcast/ps2/gamecube/xbox) before I invest in a homebrew portable device.
Preferably clam design.

 

[RupeeClock]

While this sounds good, I going to wait a few years for the gap to cross over to the next gen ( as in dreamcast/ps2/gamecube/xbox) before I invest in a homebrew portable device.
Preferably clam design.

The difference in processing power between the Dreamcast against the PS2 or Gamecube is pretty substantial actually.
Dreamcast was 200Mhz, Gamecube was 486Mhz, PS2 was 299Mhz.
Also to compare, the N64 was 93Mhz, the PSX was 33Mhz.

Where the GCW Zero with its 1Ghz MIPS processor and dedicated GPU, is more than capable of emulating PSX games and potentially N64 as well (due to the shared MIPS architecture of these two systems), the Dreamcast will be considerably tougher to emulate on such a device.
Somehow though, I wonder if Dreamcast emulation would be possible on the GCW Zero, even if not full speed.

 

[Rydian]

for everything the gcw gets right, i'm not about to argue its uselessness based on a handful of rpgs and their font on a lower resolution.

If it was a portable N64 that wouldn't play OoT or Super Mario 64 would things be different?

its a tad upsetting that you would so easily write off everything positive about the system based on these games.

I've said this is an interesting device, and was even vocally impressed by how it runs games like Star Fox.

However, now I've changed my mind and I've said I won't buy it because one of the flaws it has is a really big one where I'm concerned. I will not buy this device, because they cheaped out on the resolution and that makes it unable to play a couple of my favorite games properly. Games that I planned on playing on it.

i am genuinely confused how easy that was for you.

It's about as easy as not buying a vacuum cleaner that only cleans carpets when your house has hardwood floors.

I want a product that will run specific games at playable quality. This product will not do that. Therefore I, myself, Rydian, George Gates, member #244492, do not plan to buy this product.

Just like I don't have a 3DS, and don't have any current plans to get one. None of the existing games are games I want. This may change in the future, but for now, no plans.

how can you expect it to get everything right?

I can't, but just because issues are small in number doesn't mean they're small in effect.

Just like the SNES emulator for the DSTwo. It's the best there is on the DS, and in many places it plays Super Metroid properly... but in some areas it plays at single-digit framerates.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUWjVxAD9Q8
I still try to contribute to it's development via bug reports and testing, but due to it's flaws, I choose not to use it myself.

In the case of the GCW Zero it's not just downloading and running some homebrew, it's a ~$140 purchase, and I'm not going to spend that just for curiosity.

Like, let's say I didn't know anything about the PS3, and wanted to buy one to play PS2 games on, only to find out that the models available now don't play PS2 titles. Is it unreasonable for me to decide against purchasing it after learning that?

higher res screens have already been used on the chinachip devices and they always had the same negative end result.

If a device can render internally at hi-res, then it should have no problem displaying hi-res. Nearest-neighbor/2:1 scaling has been considered a free action even on mobile GPUs for years. The PSP can even do it with it's GPU, and that's a 2004 GPU. Modern chips like the GCW Zero is using are much more powerful.

The only time a higher resolution causes slowdown is when the higher resolution is what's being rendered internally/natively. This would not affect sprite/scanline-based emulators that scale up. This WOULD affect native homebrew that do resolution-dependant rendering (Descent, etc.), but going 320x240 over 640x480 is forced quality loss, while letting the games render at 320x240 scaled would let them run as fast as on a native 320x240 display, without hurting other software.

the gcw picked a happy medium (res, aspect, size, manufacture, brightness, color, quality, etc) that addresses a large majority of the complaints, regardless of its ability to produce a 1:1 experience 100% of the time.

Hey now, don't mistake me for wanting cycle-accurate emulation or something. I'm one of the people that wants to play games, and unfortunately this problem gets in the way of actually playing the games.

i would ask for you to visit #gcw on freenode and talk with the developers. I have my suspicions that their choice of lcd is not directly related to cost.

-another world

They mention cost each time, even in the FAQ on the kickstarter page itself.

HOWEVER, it is possible they're simply not aware of these issues, since like I said they only happen when the actual output resolution is the same as the normal native even when the SNES is trying hi-res mode and most people run their emulators at a higher resolution output which allows all the pixels to fit... so sure, I'll hop on and ask them if they're aware of the issue and if they'd consider an LCD change to accommodate for it.

 

[Another World]

you still haven't explained how you can write off an entire device based on a handful of games. that idea, in and of itself, is just ridiculous. take the blinders off for a second and look at what the device is, look at its community, look at the large amount of emulation, games, and applications ready to run on it, look at what is already available for it, and look at what is being developed for it. you are honestly telling me that you would not find a single shred of entertainment value in this device because it can't properly run a handful of rpgs?

i'm trying really hard to understand your point of view but everything you are saying about gaming is so utterly confusing to me. your entire stance about gaming in this debate is based on your convoluted grasp of how gaming should be enjoyed. in these regards we are polar opposites. i'll always find the value in my games, regardless of how poorly they were designed, coded, ported, or supported. if i enjoy the experience then its worth playing. the zero is going to provide thousands of those experiences and i plan on enjoying every one.

-another world

 

[Rydian]

you still haven't explained how you can write off an entire device based on a handful of games.

Yes I have.

I was originally interested in the device when it showed the best handheld emulation I've seen based on the two or three titles that were shown.

However now that I know that a handful of titles I want to run will not work properly on the device due to hardware limits, I don't have any interest in buying the device. These are hardware limits, so it's not something that will be fixed over time with software updates. It'd take a hardware revision/change to allow it, meaning the currently-shown model won't do it.

that idea, in and of itself, is just ridiculous.

Let's say there's a guy who sees the Final Fantasy 7 tech demo for the PS3, and plans to buy a PS3 with the hopes of being able to play an FF7 HD remake. Then he finds out later that he won't be able to (since it was a tech demo and not an actual game), so he decides not to buy the PS3.

Is that ridiculous?

take the blinders off for a second and look at what the device is, look at its community

What do you think this is, some kind of charity? They're selling a device, a product, with a purpose. I originally thought the product fit my needs, but now I found out it doesn't, so I don't want to buy it.

I don't know about you all, but I don't have enough disposable income to buy ~$140 products simply to support the devs and the idea behind them. If I buy something, it's because I either need it, or plan to make use of it (likely for entertainment).

look at the large amount of emulation, games, and applications ready to run on it, look at what is already available for it, and look at what is being developed for it. you are honestly telling me that you would not find a single shred of entertainment value in this device because it can't properly run a handful of rpgs?

What about this?
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/features/
A decently-designed laptop with a Core i7, optional SSD, GT650M option, and more, a very powerful machine. Imagine the mobile gaming you could do on that GT650M, imagine how working with huge files and transfers and loading would be a breeze on the SSD, imagine how 8GB of 1600MHz DDR3 RAM would make high-resolution video editing not a chopfest... and there's actually some decent exclusive games and apps for OSX in addition to Steam having a port, OSX is also well-known for coming with some programming compilers/interpreters and IDEs available from-disc (or installed, I'm not up-to-date past 10.5)...

So you should buy it, and I don't understand if you don't want to. </sarcasm>

i'm trying really hard to understand your point of view but everything you are saying about gaming is so utterly confusing to me. your entire stance about gaming in this debate is based on your convoluted grasp of how gaming should be enjoyed.

What? I'm trying to be as clear as possible.

1 - I saw this product, and thought it would play the games I wanted to play. At this point, I wanted the product.

2 - I learned that the product will not play many of the games I want to play. Because of this, I lost interest in the product.

in these regards we are polar opposites. i'll always find the value in my games, regardless of how poorly they were designed, coded, ported, or supported.

Let me present two situations.

1 - Cave Story for the PSP. There's two graphical bugs with this port. The first is that when some sprites walk "offscreen", they'll vanish before actually making it off the screen. This only affects two or three cutscenes out of the entire game, and you're not even in control during that time. The second bug is that with a few of the items, the last word or two will be cut off of the description. Only a few items are affected and it's just flavor text.

Since the bugs do not impact gameplay, they're considered minor and easily forgotten. This type of bug is fine to deal with.


2 - SNES emulation without hi-res or pseudo-hi-res display ability.

(Above images from Byuu's demonstration.)

(Below images from me, here.)

If the games display damaged text or have graphical bugs that obscured the viewable area, I would consider it unplayable, I would not want to deal with this.

if i enjoy the experience then its worth playing.

And the opposite is true, right? If I would not enjoy it, it's not worth playing, right?

the zero is going to provide thousands of those experiences and i plan on enjoying every one.

-another world

Your love for homebrew exceeds my own. I have some definite likes and favorites in the DS scene (Mind Maze, Red Temple, etc.), but if I get this device it'll be for portable emulation of the games that I want to play.





Hey, let's try something.

See this?

This is a vibrator. You should buy it.

• "But I don't have any use for it."
  But you like electronics, so you should buy it.
  
  
• "I don't want to buy it because I won't use a vibrator."
  But you could, think of all the things you could do!
  
  
• "No, I won't buy it because I have no interest in using it."
  But what about the community of people backing it? It's not just for raw sexual pleasure, it'll also help you let off steam and the concept is backed by several health and wellness committees.
  
  
• "I'm not going to purposely spend money on something I won't use."
  Take your blinders off, this is a good product!

The GCW Zero is one of the most powerful devices we've seen yet, it seems to have great software support (always been a fear with other devices), and is taking into account all sorts of people that want to use it, not just emulation enthusiasts.

But I will not buy it because I do not want it because it will not play the games I want to play properly.

 

[Kouen Hasuki]

Sounds like something Apple would do... hehehehhehe

I was more pulling a Pun at Nintendo

 

[Rydian]

(4:27:01 AM) senquack: yes
(4:32:34 AM) Rydian: Is there anybody I could ask about the choice of a 320x240 display in the GCW Zero? It'll greatly hamper SNES games that would want to display higher resolutions. Was that not known at the time of the decision (as the majority of games don't use it), or was that known but considered an acceptable loss?
(4:37:39 AM) senquack: argh
(4:37:47 AM) senquack: there aren't hardly two or three games like that
(4:37:59 AM) senquack: 320x240 is the perfect screen for emulation
(4:38:17 AM) senquack: 640x480 screens are hard to come by these days and they wanted to maintain a 4:3 aspect ratio
(4:38:42 AM) senquack: also they wanted to keep prices down and there's 4x the number of pixels to push in a 640x480 screen
(4:38:48 AM) senquack: that's it
(4:39:03 AM) senquack: it will not greatly hamper anything
[...]

Then I started naming the other games that use it in their problems, and they made it clear they didn't care (since all the other games run fine), so I dropped the subject since it seemed they've already been annoyed with the question a hundred times before.

Also, price being the reason? Confirmed.
"Hard to come by" = More expensive.
"maintain 4:3 aspect ratio" = 640x480 is also 4:3, so he was commenting on why they went 320x240 opposed to widescreen like in phones and the PSP.
"keep prices down" = Obvious, price.
"4x the number of pixels to push" = I already talked about this, it's a potential concern for other things (they don't give you a render size choice), but not emulation.

Conscious design choice it is anyways, so I doubt there will be a later model that supports them... :\ That sucks.



EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I understand that they need to keep costs down (especially for new projects like this), but it's ironic that this device is supposed to fix the mistakes of the China-based ones, but does this anyways.

 

[Kouen Hasuki]

rydian, you really would pass on this system because it has issues with 5-10 games? what about the thousands of other gaming experiences it will provide for you?

-another world

TBH my view is similar to Rydain in knowing that this handheld will be forgotten soon enough when the next "Holy Grail" of emulation arrives with even better specs and better screen resolution or they make the next model up with beefier hardware.

I'm not sure why you couldnt see why some people would not want the device

 

[Pleng]

you still haven't explained how you can write off an entire device based on a handful of games. that idea, in and of itself, is just ridiculous.

He's not writing the system off, he's just saying he has no use for it.

Try and look at it in reverse. I bought a 3DS because of MarioKart 7, and Sonic Generations - and the promise of a new Animal Crossing. They were the only two games I cared about playing on it. If the games hadn't existed I wouldn't have bothered. Why should I buy a console for games that other people like, but I'd most likely end up playing with for 5 minutes before getting bored of?

I bough a Dreamcast, well past it's prime, specifically to Play Daytona and Saga Rally. It came with Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, Virtua Fighter and a couple of other games. Yes, I played Sonic Adventure 1 because it was there, but I wouldn't have bought the system for that game alone.

A system is only as good for any individual person as the games he/she wants to play on them. I gave up on buying these systems, having had a GP2X, Dingoo and a Pandora, as once I'd completed my goal of finally completing Super Mario World and Link to The Past, all I ever did was end up booting up Sonic, or F-Zero and playing for 10 minutes until I got bored. Apart from the Pandora - but I had to get rid of that because I couldn't financially justify having it around when I needed a lot of other stuff. So this device would be no good for me. That's not to say it's not a good machine. That's not to say that the software available for it isn't top quality. It just means it has nothing that *I* want to play on it.