GCW Zero Meets Its Goal, supported games announced

[Rydian]

To be fair:
2): you carry the phone around anyhow. So you're either carrying a phone and a controller, or a phone and a console.
2a-c): see 2)

I'm a neanderthal and still haven't gotten a personal cell.

CAVEMEN ARE PPL 2

I don't know, it seems that a few people here are making a big deal because of the 320x240 resolution.
I'm really fine with that, coming from lackluster handled emulation experiences ( the DS at 256x192 has to scale down most emulated systems and it's just not powerful enough, while on the other end the PSP has a weird resolution at 480 × 272 which is too big, but not quite big enough to render most systems at 2x, so you end up with a tiny square with huge black borders if you prefer 1:1 pixel mapping, or a blurry image upscaled to the nearest neighbor still with black bars on the sides.....), to me it looks just perfect.

I'd rather have 98% of the games (I'm guessing here ) without any scaling, and the occasional Hi res game downscaled then the other way around....

Really, this handled looks incredible, I'm all for it.

Well the PSP's emulation is worse than this, compatibility-wise.

 

[Johnny on Flame]

at this price I dont see the point when there are plenty of android phones/tablets which are way more powerful, bigger screens along with higher resolution, already developed emulators (up to N64 and PS1 and experimental PSP right now), and can be coupled with a controller of your choosing

The GCW Zero can easily be pocketed, unlike a PS3 controller or a tablet, with the bonus of your phone not running out of battery. Also we have a library of games that are either unavailable under android or badly ported.

/more text/

Desktops =/= Embedded Platforms, that's a bad comparison.
Unfortunally, I can't go into details about the IPU with you, non-disclosure agreement and all that. If you want to peek around there should be quite a few loose references on either our public source trees or on ingenic's. You assume loads of stuff you're pretty much wrong about. If you're going to call bullshit on me then how about you cite sources for all your assumptions.


TBH: It's simple, we made a choice based on what we think its better, it trims unecessary resource usage while maintaining the costs under budget and it also allows the vast majority of emulators and retro games to keep their native resolutions. Unfortunally, these three or four jrpgs will be affected. they're still playable, the only one that I can see to be actually affected to any considerable extent is Seiken Densetsu 3, but even in the case in question, these graphical issues will only take place in a few screens, the fun part of the thing (dialogs, etc, correct me if you will, long time I don't play these snes JRPGs) can still be read without ANY trouble. The pros outbalance the cons by an undeniable huge margin.

 

[fermio100]

If it was a portable N64 that wouldn't play OoT or Super Mario 64 would things be different?

I've said this is an interesting device, and was even vocally impressed by how it runs games like Star Fox.

However, now I've changed my mind and I've said I won't buy it because one of the flaws it has is a really big one where I'm concerned. I will not buy this device, because they cheaped out on the resolution and that makes it unable to play a couple of my favorite games properly. Games that I planned on playing on it.

It's about as easy as not buying a vacuum cleaner that only cleans carpets when your house has hardwood floors.

I want a product that will run specific games at playable quality. This product will not do that. Therefore I, myself, Rydian, George Gates, member #244492, do not plan to buy this product.

Just like I don't have a 3DS, and don't have any current plans to get one. None of the existing games are games I want. This may change in the future, but for now, no plans.

I can't, but just because issues are small in number doesn't mean they're small in effect.

Just like the SNES emulator for the DSTwo. It's the best there is on the DS, and in many places it plays Super Metroid properly... but in some areas it plays at single-digit framerates.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUWjVxAD9Q8
I still try to contribute to it's development via bug reports and testing, but due to it's flaws, I choose not to use it myself.

In the case of the GCW Zero it's not just downloading and running some homebrew, it's a ~$140 purchase, and I'm not going to spend that just for curiosity.

Like, let's say I didn't know anything about the PS3, and wanted to buy one to play PS2 games on, only to find out that the models available now don't play PS2 titles. Is it unreasonable for me to decide against purchasing it after learning that?

If a device can render internally at hi-res, then it should have no problem displaying hi-res. Nearest-neighbor/2:1 scaling has been considered a free action even on mobile GPUs for years. The PSP can even do it with it's GPU, and that's a 2004 GPU. Modern chips like the GCW Zero is using are much more powerful.

The only time a higher resolution causes slowdown is when the higher resolution is what's being rendered internally/natively. This would not affect sprite/scanline-based emulators that scale up. This WOULD affect native homebrew that do resolution-dependant rendering (Descent, etc.), but going 320x240 over 640x480 is forced quality loss, while letting the games render at 320x240 scaled would let them run as fast as on a native 320x240 display, without hurting other software.

Hey now, don't mistake me for wanting cycle-accurate emulation or something. I'm one of the people that wants to play games, and unfortunately this problem gets in the way of actually playing the games.

They mention cost each time, even in the FAQ on the kickstarter page itself.

HOWEVER, it is possible they're simply not aware of these issues, since like I said they only happen when the actual output resolution is the same as the normal native even when the SNES is trying hi-res mode and most people run their emulators at a higher resolution output which allows all the pixels to fit... so sure, I'll hop on and ask them if they're aware of the issue and if they'd consider an LCD change to accommodate for it.

Great answere there! I bought myself one, but the games I want it plays, but I can see your point, perfectly.

 

[Veho]

Meanwhile, my questions go unanswered. I don't know much about Dingux (I'm gonna go on a limb and assume all Dingux apps will work on the GCW Zero), so I have no idea what to expect. Also, to my knowledge, this is the first Dingux machine that has internet access (apart from being the most powerful yet). So what can it do with all that power?

 

[Surkow]

@Veho, watch a few videos and check out the media page at wwwgcw-zero.com.

HDMI is still in development. Right now we focus on open source, homebrew and indie games while third party developers work on emulation.

 

[Johnny on Flame]

Meanwhile, my questions go unanswered. I don't know much about Dingux (I'm gonna go on a limb and assume all Dingux apps will work on the GCW Zero), so I have no idea what to expect. Also, to my knowledge, this is the first Dingux machine that has internet access (apart from being the most powerful yet). So what can it do with all that power?

Sorry, I overlooked your post- let's go back a bit.... aaaaand...

If I may hijack the thread for a bit; what are the system's capabilities outside of games and emulation? Media playback, web browser, support/clients for internet services (mail clients, IM, VoIP, Youtube, Flash support, etc. etc.), alternative OS? Are there any such apps ready or in development? What's the output resolution on the HDMI-out, is it full HD? Will apps be able to use the full HD (if available)? Does it support USB hubs? Has any of this been answered already and I overlooked it?

Thank you.

- Media Playback: You can play videos and music on it. Nobody really experimented much, but there's more than enough hardware to decode most just fine. (take this with a grain of salt.)
- Web Browsing: Right now there's no application developed with this end, but I'd expect an experience of something like using the Nokia 5310 if there's a browser. (which means "usable" )
- There's no flash support and I doubt there'll be any sort of official flash developed for the device.
- USB Hubs will work in case they're powered. Unless they'll be no use.
- Most of these have been already answered either on FAQs, Kickstarter comments or on some other forum (I don't know if I'm allowed to do cross reference here.), but answering again is not much of a big deal

 

[Rydian]

The GCW Zero can easily be pocketed

That's a good way of putting it, sorta' what I meant.

Desktops =/= Embedded Platforms, that's a bad comparison.

This device is using a subset of OpenGL (a more modern version of the standard than the PS3 had, even), is using a dedicated chip for acceleration of it's graphics (the CPU is 65nm, the GPU is 40nm, so separate packages, but I can't tell which is the GPU from the screenshots of the PCB I've found as the markings on the smaller ones are too small to read), and thus can do the same scaling/rendering basics as PCs.

The screenshots were to show that scaling via the GPU is not nearly as costly as you say. Even though there's a recorded difference between 1:1 and double the size, it's less than 0.75% utilization of my desktop GPU... and CPU utilization was not affected, meaning emulation would not take a performance hit. Other things that would take a hit can opt to render at the lower resolution and look the same as they would on the 320x240 screen (since the DPI would be unchanged assuming the screen's physical size is unchanged).

Unfortunally, I can't go into details about the IPU with you, non-disclosure agreement and all that.

Oh please, there's PCB images, and they have the names of the chips used on the official site, that's just a cop-out. Your post is the only mention I can find of an "IPU" even existing (the concept/term doesn't even show up elsewhere).

If you heard it from people who worked with the development, then it was being used as a term for either a library (software component), or a name for a job the CPU/GPU was handling.

If you want to peek around there should be quite a few loose references on either our public source trees or on ingenic's.

A quick trawl through the driver and firmware folders of the linux folder found no mention of a "IPU", if that's the right place to look?

You assume loads of stuff you're pretty much wrong about. If you're going to call bullshit on me then how about you cite sources for all your assumptions.

You do know that underlined text with a different color indicates a link, right?

And as for the performance things I took screenshots to try to make it clear, since the only references you'll find online of people asking "Is it computationally-expensive to scale output in OpenGL" are when they're entirely beginners, and so it's posted on stackoverflow and development forums, not the most official resources (and with responses generally geared towards the user's small project).

Here's some more sources for things I've said.

CPUs often come with locked multipliers...
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/multiplier_lock.html
And raising the FSB speed is the alternative...
http://www.overclockersclub.com/pages/overclock_faq/
Changing the FSB changes RAM clock too...
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640601
And in order for the RAM clock to change, a restart is needed.
http://lifehacker.com/5580998/a-beginners-guide-to-overclocking-your-intel-processor ("The Process", end of para. 1)

Also embedded systems need a restart for an overclock too, so inb4 another "that's PCs it doesn't count".
http://htpcbuild.com/htpc-software/raspberry-pi-openelec/openelec-overclocking/

Also, the spec sheet for the GPU doesn't seem to mention the ability to modify it's own clock rate, unless "battery-saving innovations" includes that, but automatic underclocking and sleep states certainly aren't Vivante innovation (and would affect battery life so if so they'd probably list it specifically for a plus).

So as far as I see there's doubt that power draw increases with GPU load at all.

Also just in case, inb4 "some of your sources mention android", Android uses the Linux kernel and it uses OpenGL ES.

The pros outbalance the cons by an undeniable huge margin.

Any pro other than cost for emulation has not been verified, and is quite unlikely to exist. I've called it into question using comparisons with existing devices (like the PSP) and with benchmarks on the PC multiple times (even linking you to the software I used).

Meanwhile, my questions go unanswered. I don't know much about Dingux (I'm gonna go on a limb and assume all Dingux apps will work on the GCW Zero), so I have no idea what to expect. Also, to my knowledge, this is the first Dingux machine that has internet access (apart from being the most powerful yet). So what can it do with all that power?

The GPU they list says it's capable of 1080p on the spec/ad sheet, at least. Vato and AW know more about the software capabilities.

or on some other forum (I don't know if I'm allowed to do cross reference here.)

Oh don't worry about that, as long as the links don't contain ROMs or other illegal materials it's fine to reference/link other forums for info (and part of the expectation for the User-Submitted News section as an example).

 

[Joe88]

The GCW Zero can easily be pocketed, unlike a PS3 controller or a tablet, with the bonus of your phone not running out of battery. Also we have a library of games that are either unavailable under android or badly ported.

Moga & gametel controllers fit in your pocket thats why I said a controller of your choosing not just a ps3 controller (though personally I use a ps2 controller with a usb adapter on my tablet)
battery life is more or less the same on this device with most phones, just bring the charger if you find it going down to quickly (I hope somebody isnt gaming 7 hours+ in one day though on these devices)
and library of games? except for descent, the rest are terrible looking indie games and the others are available already on android

 

[Johnny on Flame]

/text/

These macros and definitions are directly taken from Ingenics sources, read through em'.
I know what these "underlined text with a different color indicates", lets talk about these:
- Superfetch has NOTHING to do with the case in point. It's just a way of pre-caching certain assets into RAM.
- CRT post processing shaders have NOTHING to do with this case in point, the other one is not talking about text either, rather how the game's graphics were designed to look like when played on the CRT screens.

If there's doubt whether your GPU is using more power during load, try lauching furmark and taking a peek on the temperatures. Heat happens on circuits where there's energy being lost.

Moga & gametel controllers fit in your pocket thats why I said a controller of your choosing not just a ps3 controller (though personally I use a ps2 controller with a usb adapter on my tablet)
battery life is more or less the same on this device with most phones, just bring the charger if you find it going down to quickly (I hope somebody isnt gaming 7 hours+ in one day though on these devices)
and library of games? except for descent, the rest are terrible looking indie games and the others are available already on android

My phone barely survives through a normal day here, 3G + Web Browsing + Music, occasional GPS when it's necessary. If I add bluetooth and gaming here my phone won't last.

And about games, Quake I and II with proper controlls, Hexen II, Cavestory, FRONTIER Elite II, Chocolate Doom (full doom series as vanilla as it goes), Eduke32, Shadow Warrior, Rise of the Triad, just to name a few.

 

[Rydian]

These macros and definitions are directly taken from Ingenics sources, read through em'.

Quick CTRL+F...

2873: #define LCD_IPUR (LCD_BASE + 0x11C) /* LCD IPU Restart Register */
[...]
3109: /* IPU Restart Register */
3110: #define LCD_IPUR_IPUREN (1 << 31) /* IPU restart function enable*/
3111: #define LCD_IPUR_IPURMASK (0xFFFFFF) /* IPU restart value mask*/

So that's LCD hardware control? I googled for some of the registers and comments, and found that this header file for the CPU (jz4770.h, the one you linked) shares some things with other projects... but unlike the GCW Zero, the other projects actually look like thet use the IPU/OSD for things, while the repository you linked just sets up initialization for it because it's just a bootloader.

And it's just a bootloader for boards in general using a certain chipset, it's not even part of the GCW project.

Do you have any actual info on the "IPU" as it pertains to the hardware of the GCW Zero and what it's used for and junk? It looks like it's used to move image data around (I'm seeing comparisons to using it versus DMA in embedded camera systems), but the GCW Zero has a dedicated GPU for manipulation.

I know what these "underlined text with a different color indicates", lets talk about these:
- Superfetch has NOTHING to do with the case in point. It's just a way of pre-caching certain assets into RAM.

I never said that the device uses it, I was using the existence of Superfetch as an easy way to disprove your idea that more RAM usage equals worse battery life. All RAM is powered all the time, and writing to "full" and "empty" RAM is the same physical process.

- CRT post processing shaders have NOTHING to do with this case in point, the other one is not talking about text either, rather how the game's graphics were designed to look like when played on the CRT screens.

I mentioned the CRT post-processing shaders to show that...
1 - Games will rely on detail outside of the normal 256x224 grid, (SD3 was squeezing the extra resolution to the 8:3 aspect ratio to give "half-pixels" of extra data which is why those modes only render properly at higher resolutions), but also color blending and such.
2 - I'm not the only person who cares about the less-than-a-normal-pixel minute details. Insert "THEY CALLED ME MAD!" gif here if you want.

If there's doubt whether your GPU is using more power during load, try lauching furmark and taking a peek on the temperatures. Heat happens on circuits where there's energy being lost.

My previous GPU got up to ~110C with furmark when I was confirming the cooling system wasn't working properly, I'm well-aware that running at a higher clock rate sucks more juice.

But we're talking <0.75% utilization with my original test.

By the way, I decided to use GPU-Z to see if that was my GPU clocked to full. Turns out it wasn't.

It's a Radeon HD 5770, core clock of 850MHz. So the 0.55% increase was of the ~157MHz.

So that's 0.1% utilization of my GPU to scale an SNES game 2:1 nearest-neighbor.
The GCW Zero is not nearly that weak.

Also, the clock rate didn't increase, so neither did heat or power drain.

My phone barely survives through a normal day here, 3G + Web Browsing + Music, occasional GPS when it's necessary. If I add bluetooth and gaming here my phone won't last.

Agreed. Cells have high-powered antennae and multiple additional chips to deal with, in addition to required background services.

 

[Joe88]

I dont know about most people but I keep my data com down and turn it on only when I need it, the actual cell phone com stays on 24/7 unless its in a spotty area then I have it set to enter airplane mode, same for wi-fi always off unless I need to use it, gps is always off unless some app is forcing it, bluetooth off unless I am using it
all of these things save a ton of battery

quakes 1 & 2 would be nice with gamepad support, right now we only have quake 3 with gamepad support
we have hexen 2 pocket edition, cavestrory (unofficial port), doom GLES (along with heretic GLES), there is a duke nukem 3d which is "ok" not the greatest but its there, as far the the last 2 something I have been forgetting is we have dosbox turbo to play a ton old dos game out there so even if there is no official android port of it out there
and of course the whole entire android library of games and apps

imo this device would have been better priced at about $75, it seems is just gonna be another one of those all-in-1 emulating devices where its gets released, people buy them then support disappears soon after, then another company pops up touting they have an even better device

 

[Surkow]

[...]

imo this device would have been better priced at about $75, it seems is just gonna be another one of those all-in-1 emulating devices where its gets released, people buy them then support disappears soon after, then another company pops up touting they have an even better device

I think you are misunderstanding something. This device has been made to remedy the lack of support. It has been developed by the community, unlike most Chinese hardware. Educate yourself before spouting nonsense.

 

[Johnny on Flame]

IPU/Bootloader

Uh, what? That's our official bootloader. "pcercuei" a.k.a Paul Cercueil is part of the development team.
Like I said, I do have internal documents but NDA limits what I can talk about, what I can tell you that the IPU is used for some generic image processing, like image scaling and colour-depth conversions.

SUPERFETCH

Neither did I say anything about using it on the device, what I said however is that it has nothing to do with this case. I do know that RAM is kept on, but that has nothing to do with RAM bandwidth.

Scaling

- Nereast neighbor is bad.
- Once more, this device is not a SNES Emulator, it's aimed at homebrew/indie titles, emulation just happens to be a subset of homebrew.

Temperatures

Well, I already presented you the sources for my claims, different uses and loads produces different energy drains. You might wanna go ahead and test it if you have the means for doing so. A good example is how furmark is known for trashing defective mosfets due to the ridiculous ammount power draw it does during benchmarking due to the nature of the algorithms they use to stress the GPU.

I dont know about most people but I keep my data com down and turn it on only when I need it, the actual cell phone com stays on 24/7 unless its in a spotty area then I have it set to enter airplane mode, same for wi-fi always off unless I need to use it, gps is always off unless some app is forcing it, bluetooth off unless I am using it
all of these things save a ton of battery

quakes 1 & 2 would be nice with gamepad support, right now we only have quake 3 with gamepad support
we have hexen 2 pocket edition, cavestrory (unofficial port), doom GLES (along with heretic GLES), there is a duke nukem 3d which is "ok" not the greatest but its there, as far the the last 2 something I have been forgetting is we have dosbox turbo to play a ton old dos game out there so even if there is no official android port of it out there
and of course the whole entire android library of games and apps

imo this device would have been better priced at about $75, it seems is just gonna be another one of those all-in-1 emulating devices where its gets released, people buy them then support disappears soon after, then another company pops up touting they have an even better device

I can't keep data down, I bought this phone exactly because I need data on polling emails and such all the time.

Hexen II was deleted from the store (and from what I heard had a not really good control scheme), that "official" DN3D port is attrocious and Doom GLES is not vanilla. (I'm part of the small audience that loves the original doom, + you don't have STRIFE on Android).

And your remark is a little ofensive, you shouldn't be talking about people when you have no idea who they are and what they are doing/planning.

 

[Rydian]

Uh, what? That's our official bootloader. "pcercuei" a.k.a Paul Cercueil is part of the development team.

Good to know, but the bootloader only shows initialization of it in relation to the LCD, not what it'd be used for in this case.

Like I said, I do have internal documents but NDA limits what I can talk about, what I can tell you that the IPU is used for some generic image processing, like image scaling and colour-depth conversions.

From what I see it's logic related to the LCD and it's display, hardware deinterlacing was mentioned in passing... but I only saw it used for such things in cases where there was no dedicated GPU to take care of it, and the GCW Zero has one.

Neither did I say anything about using it on the device, what I said however is that it has nothing to do with this case. I do know that RAM is kept on, but that has nothing to do with RAM bandwidth.

You said that more RAM usage equals more battery usage. RAM's bandwidth is a function of it's operational frequency, which, as far as I know, will not change while the system is running, and all RAM is powered.

- Nereast neighbor is bad.

Nearest-neighbor double-size resolution on the same-size screen will have the same DPI in the same dimensions and thus look exactly the same.

http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html
320x240 3.5" is 114.29 DPI.
640x480 3.5" is 228.57 DPI, but double-size nearest-neighbor scaling means only half the DPI is visible as what would be an individual pixel on the original screen is displayed in clumps of four, and 228.57 / 2 = 114.285.

So things that would render at ~320x240 (or similar like SNES/NES/Genesis) will display the same on 320x240 as they would scaled up on 640x480.

And, of course, the proportions will remain the same. The visible image (in relation to the whole screen) will not grow or shrink.

Scale either the first image up nearest-neighbor or the second image down nearest-neighbor and, minus the text (I re-rendered it for readability since it was vector-based unlike the raster background), it'll look the same. Even those crappy hand-drawn arrows will scale up and down with no loss (since those are raster).

- Once more, this device is not a SNES Emulator, it's aimed at homebrew/indie titles, emulation just happens to be a subset of homebrew.

Emulation is my main goal, and the reason I considered this device in the first place. I have a PSP and the emulation is worse, and I have a tablet but it lacks hardware controls... this kind of device looks like it would solve both of those issues and it does for speed and controls, but unfortunately the low resolution is a downside I don't want to deal with.

Well, I already presented you the sources for my claims, different uses and loads produces different energy drains. You might wanna go ahead and test it if you have the means for doing so. A good example is how furmark is known for trashing defective mosfets due to the ridiculous ammount power draw it does during benchmarking due to the nature of the algorithms they use to stress the GPU.

Are you back to just skimming again?

I did test it, and the clock rate did NOT increase, which means there was not an increase to the power draw. Not only did the clock rate not increase, but the usage was just 0.1% of the GPU's total power (and 0.55% of the downclocked power), which means it was quite a bit from needing to raise the clock.

I can't keep data down, I bought this phone exactly because I need data on polling emails and such all the time.

Yeah, a lot of people use their phones for work and so need constant notifications of e-mail. I worked in the tech department of my college for a little bit and status e-mails about issues and device outages were critical, and we needed to be able to get them within minutes of them being sent. A connection issue between the two sites could mean that a compressed-video class would be cut off, and that can't wait.

 

[alexei_gp]

Hi i backed the gcw zero and im glad to have a powerful handheld.The reason for buying the gcw zero is to play some old fps,gba and supernes.For me it doesn matter if doesnt have a good resolution the gcw zero i will play gba and supernes in perfect conditions.

 

[Rydian]

For me it doesn matter if doesnt have a good resolution the gcw zero i will play gba and supernes in perfect conditions.

Most games yes, some games no (and because of the resolution).
I posted comparison images a few pages back.

I mean it's likely games you don't give a shit about, just commenting that it's not perfect condition.

 

[conner]

If I had doom on this would it be able to run mods

Or play custom maps

 

[alexei_gp]

Most games yes, some games no (and because of the resolution).
I posted comparison images a few pages back.

I mean it's likely games you don't give a shit about, just commenting that it's not perfect condition.

Maybe not perfect but you can still play it very well and im agreed with you i dont give a shit about the screen of the gcw zero, its not important to me only matters to play gba,snes and fps.Its good to play snes on a tiny screen im saying this normally because on the jxd s7300 playing snes have big pixels on the screen and i dont want to play it with those big pixels they are ugly for me.

 

[Rydian]

If I had doom on this would it be able to run mods

Or play custom maps

Well it's got a rework of the engine running and custom maps and such are generally just resource pack replacement, so I assume so?

 

[Johnny on Flame]

pagestretch

Flowing bits via circuits has its own costs- It is true frequencies have a take on power draw, since generating oscilation ("clock generation") has its costs, but that's not the only player in the field, different instructions executed needs more power to be flown through the circuitry in order to power the many different capacitators present in logic gates.

If I had doom on this would it be able to run mods

Or play custom maps

There are manymany doom engines out there, one of them is PrBOOM, which plays most of the popular wads. Right now we're using the good ol' Chocolate Doom engine, which is as vanilla as it goes and plays a range of first-party packs and games.
Porting PrBoom should be a matter of ten minutes or something. Maybe I'll give it a shot once I have time in hands.