Rape and pregnancy: the ignorance of the GOP

[omgpwn666]

"One in millions and millions and millions" sounds like a bullshit statistic. And it probably is, coming from a politician.

Politicians are the most sincere, honest, smartest, and greatest people on the planet.

 

[thisismyname]

Not sure anyone would notice me looking like an idiot; you've kind of stolen the show.
Take a day and come back with some real arguments (or insults--- I guess is what we're doing now?)

I don't have a problem with where you stand on killing living human beings; so if you don't have a problem with your own stance, then there's really no problem.
I'm always going to be able to say, "I'm against annihilating tiny human beings who can't defend themselves." I'm glad I can say that.
You'll always be able to say, "I'm for doing that en mass, if it makes life easier."

 

[leic7]

That's why I said "government-aided" abortions.

So abortions for the rich only. Gotcha. Presumably you're also against funding for contraception?

So if you're a 30-year-old CEO who doesn't want a baby to get in the way of her career, abort away! If you're a 16 year old who's condom broke and you don't want to say to your dad "Uh, can you lend me $3k for an abortion please" tough luck, potentially life-threatening pregnancy or coathanger abortion for you. The system works.

Guess I can go farther than this.

A better method than abortion for this 16 yo is to NOT GET KNOCKED UP in the first place. Seriously, anyone who is stupid enough to think "it won't happen to me", and then does, should have to deal with the consequences, because that is what life is. Learning from your mistakes. Sex makes babies? Who da thunk! What are those sex educational videos teaching kids if not that sex can create babies? Oh, I get it. The teens ignore the consequences because they only want the positive side of sex. Why would this 16 yo want to get knocked up in the first place if not for the selfish side of getting pleasure from it?

Consequences is not something that can be simply ignored, so why should anyone with a horny mind be able to get away with stupidity? Why should the government be involved in personal affairs such as this? I thought people wanted less government involvement? I guess it is only when the government is on their side, such that they only want what is beneficial from the government and reject all that does the opposite when both must exist. Life-threatening pregnancy? I do think life should be preserved, but I also know that people should learn from their mistakes. No, I'm not saying they should die to teach people a lesson, but government doesn't need to be involved for this abortion, and a lesson does need to be taught or people will continue to be stupid. People have to pay out of their own pocket for stupid stuff they do every day, which includes things that are life threatening. It must not be a problem for this 16 yo that is involved in a possible life-threatening pregnancy if they feel it isn't necessary to involve their parents like you mentioned in your example.

I still keep my stance on [censored] victims being able to have government-aided abortions because, unlike the horny teenagers and adults who feel they can ignore the consequences, these victims had no choice and were forced into it.

So you _are_ against public funding for contraception? I'm guessing you're also opposed to funding for health care for smokers? And emergency treatment for people who drink and drive? These conclusions are entirely inline with your reasoning.

What lesson exactly should the 16-year-old learn, that she hasn't been able to learn already with an unwanted pregnancy? That sex would lead to babies? She's learned that obviously with the pregnancy. That sex would have consequences? She's facing them now with the pregnancy.

Is your intent truly to educate? Or do you simply just want to punish her, and to see her suffer?

Re: the role of the government, is it not to care for its citizens, and to protect the vulnerable and the marginalized? It's usually the poor and the under-educated who need help with getting an abortion the most. This is a social issue. Of course the government needs to get involved.

Abortion is not an easy choice for most women, as those who've undergone it could attest. If someone believes she couldn't provide happiness for her children, making the decision to intervene and abort her pregnancy is taking responsibilities for her past actions. She's "dealing with the consequences" and "learning from her mistakes" by taking action when she needs to act to prevent future tragedies. To sit idly by and carry it to term would be the irresponsible thing to do.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

I live in the real world, where I know lots of people who have had, or who WERE unwanted pregnancies. It works fine.....for those who aren't the absolute center of their own universe.

So the woman/girl who is pregnant under your logic must never ever get an abortion when all your killing is what some cells?
Seriously you kill cells when you wash your hands and take a shower are you going to never wash again and let those cells and germs live?

This is the 21st century not the bloody middle ages, people have a choice to have sex and not want to have any children from it and if it was a accident they have every right to have an abortion because they didn't want it in the first place what gives anyone the right to take that away from people and expect them to live a sexless life and be happy just because a minority group think killing a few cells is "wrong".

 

[DiscostewSM]

Are you for real? Your genuine response to this issue is to suggest that poor people only have sexless relationships unless they want a child? And you live in a reality where you think that can and should happen?

And if they are forced to carry the baby to term and can't afford to feed the child, that comes out of the pockets of everyone, at a cost far greater than that of an abortion or morning after pill (if you're the kind of nut that considers that abortion)? Or we just let it starve to death?

Maybe when someone crashes their car or falls off their bike and needs a trip to the A&E they should be denied medical treatment for that as well, to 'teach them a lesson'.

What kind of world do we live in where a person doesn't take responsibility for their actions?

Last I checked, people don't prep before they get into an accident. Can the same be said with sex before climax? I think not. If you're going to have sex, then take responsibility for what comes about because of it. Tax payers are the ones that have been funding these "government-aided" abortions (where else does the money come from?), but at least it is a good cause for [censored] victims. Why should my tax dollars go towards abortions for consenting couples that made the choice to engage in intercourse? Bad enough my tax dollars end up in the hands of politicians.

My bro-in-law gave me this link, and I found it to be a good watch, which involves abortion in comparison to the Holocaust. http://180movie.com/

Lat but not least, if you expect the government to provide for you (such as free abortion for anyone), then expect government to make the choices for you (much like a parent to their dependent children). Is that what you want?

 

[thisismyname]

@[member='Just Another Gamer']

people literally.....LITERALLY(!) HAVE INFINITE CHOICES.......at any given moment.
You failed to show how that means.....anything.

"Seriously"....yes, more serious than you I guess...unless you think baby humans come from germs on your hands.
WHOOBOY I am not ready to help you with that one....there are books though.

 

[emigre]

America really does astound me with the obsession on abortion the amercian political circle have on the issue. Having an occasional vote on abortion is one thing but the 'discussion' of abortion in America is really something else.

I'm Pro-choice. The woman should be the one who makes the decision. It's her body and her rights are the ones that should remain supreme. A fetus isn't a human being. Imposing illegality or limitation on abortion based on your own individual moral system is horribly wrong.

@[member='DiscostewSM'], what about couples who find themselves pregnant despite using contraception? I mentioned this already, no contraception in 100%. I believe people should be prepared but unfortunately things don't always go to plan. Should they be allowed state povision of abortion because they did the right thing but the contraception failed.

Lat but not least, if you expect the government to provide for you (such as free abortion for anyone), then expect government to make the choices for you (much like a parent to their dependent children). Is that what you want?

State provision of services doesn't equal to a state making decisions for you. This may shock you, but a number of Western European nations (and a number across the globe) provide free abortion and funnily enough there isn't much to suggest the state makes the decision to abort for you. I KNOW, SO SURPRISING!

 

[Just Another Gamer]

@[member='Just Another Gamer']

people literally.....LITERALLY(!) HAVE INFINITE CHOICES.......at any given moment.
You failed to show how that means.....anything.

"Seriously"....yes, more serious than you I guess...unless you think baby humans come from germs on your hands.
WHOOBOY I am not ready to help you with that one....there are books though.

Yes people have choices and just because someone CHOOSES to have an abortion its suddenly wrong because you disagree with it? if anything they probably made a better choice so they can actually live their life and then have children when they WANT to. See I used the word WANT not FORCED.

No one thinks babies from from germs on the hands but you kill germs and cells everyday and how is that any different from getting an abortion? Your just killing cells in the end so whats the actual difference? Seriously women CHOSE to have an abortion they weren't forced at gunpoint otherwise thats wrong, this attitude that abortion is wrong is just ridiculous and just plain childish.

 

[DiscostewSM]

Now, this is leading me into the territory of no abortion whatsoever, though I already made my stance on raped victims.

So it is the mother's choice about the abortion? What about Gianna Jessen, an abortion survivor from the attempt of her mother, and the many others who survived abortion? Where was their choice to live? Why should they suffer with the ailments and disabilities that came about because of the attempted abortion?

 

[BlueStar]

What kind of world do we live in where a person doesn't take responsibility for their actions?

Last I checked, people don't prep before they get into an accident. Can the same be said with sex before climax? I think not. If you're going to have sex, then take responsibility for what comes about because of it.

Yes, people do prep before accidents. People put on a helmet, they wear a seatbelt. Sometimes they still get injured. Sometimes people go for a drive not out of necessity, but for simple evil, wicked self gratification, often with another sick sinner doing it for the same reason. People take precautions during sex, but sometimes contraceptives fail. Sometimes people get into a crash and they weren't wearing a seatbelt, but we don't try and work this out before treating them to decide if they need to be taught a lesson for it.

My bro-in-law gave me this link, and I found it to be a good watch, which involves abortion in comparison to the Holocaust. http://180movie.com/

Cool, presumably if you manage to outlaw abortion in the US you're going to be all for invading all these other countries where this 'holocaust' is still going on? After all, the morning after pill is just like gassing an actual person in an oven, and I don't think anyone would disagree that military action was justified in WW2. So if it's equivalent, you'd better sign up for the war and get ready to save those 'babies'

 

[Just Another Gamer]

Same could be said about the women who didn't want to be pregnant regardless of situation. Did they want to be pregnant in the first place? Why should they have to go through with the birth and have a child when they aren't ready for it? So its suddenly okay for those women to give birth and then struggle to live because they have to raise a child as well as support themselves?

 

[DiscostewSM]

A contraceptive is a prevention method "before" fertilization, not "after". That is why I have no problems with those.

And the "lesson to be taught" doesn't have to be by denying service. It is easily put into the form of medical and insurance bills.

 

[BlueStar]

Not sure anyone would notice me looking like an idiot; you've kind of stolen the show.
Take a day and come back with some real arguments (or insults--- I guess is what we're doing now?)

I don't have a problem with where you stand on killing living human beings; so if you don't have a problem with your own stance, then there's really no problem.
I'm always going to be able to say, "I'm against annihilating tiny human beings who can't defend themselves." I'm glad I can say that.
You'll always be able to say, "I'm for doing that en mass, if it makes life easier."

A microscopic collection of cells is not a human being, unless you consider clipping your toenails to also be murder.

If abortion is murder, is murder, why do anti-choicers only ever show photos of the tiny percentage of abortions which occur late term? Why not show the majority which are microscopic and say "LOOK AT THIS DEAD BABY"?

Because, again, no-one really thinks abortion is 'murder' equivalent to shooting a 5 year old. Start asking people who repeat the 'baby killing' soundbite what sentence a mother should get if she has an abortion (I'm presuming miscarriages will have to be investigated as well, to ensure nothing was done to encourage it) and they suddenly have great difficulty answering.

 

[emigre]

So it is the mother's choice about the abortion? What about Gianna Jessen, an abortion survivor from the attempt of her mother, and the many others who survived abortion? Where was their choice to live? Why should they suffer with the ailments and disabilities that came about because of the attempted abortion?

That's why you implement a criteria on when the abortion can occur. I'm not proclaiming an extreme view, a foetus isn't a living being but it can develop into one. And when it does, a limit is placed upon when abortion can occur. Jesson's abortion occurred at 30 weeks from what I understand. Actual limits on abortion usually occurs earlier than that. In the UK, it's presently 24 weeks (meeting certain criteria). I'm not proclaiming an abortion-for-all at any time. But freely available abortions for women within a medically accepted time period.

Also wonderful attempt at emotional hyperbole.

EDIT: Would you answer the question of what women should do if the contraception fails?

 

[BlueStar]

A contraceptive is a prevention method "before" fertilization, not "after". That is why I have no problems with those.

And the "lesson to be taught" doesn't have to be by denying service. It is easily put into the form of medical and insurance bills.

If you don't have money, it's denying service. You may not have the money now, but then pay money into the tax system for 40 years from a later date. Then what do you say "Oh, you can have an abortion now, now you don't need one."?

How can you have 'no problem' with contraception when you want people who use them to be 'taught a lesson' when they fail?

 

[DiscostewSM]

Same could be said about the women who didn't want to be pregnant regardless of situation. Did they want to be pregnant in the first place? Why should they have to go through with the birth and have a child when they aren't ready for it? So its suddenly okay for those women to give birth and then struggle to live because they have to raise a child as well as support themselves?

"I want to have sex, but I don't want to be pregnant" Is this the kind of thinking people have nowadays when they know that sex can lead to pregnancy?

 

[BlueStar]

"I'm going to get into a car, even though it know that even if I'm careful it can lead to being in a car crash."

I'm still waiting for exactly when you start the invasion of all these countries committing 'holocausts' like Norway, Scotland, Israel (where being 16 means abortions are always approved). Not places like Iran though. Those dudes are super moral when it comes to women's health.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

Same could be said about the women who didn't want to be pregnant regardless of situation. Did they want to be pregnant in the first place? Why should they have to go through with the birth and have a child when they aren't ready for it? So its suddenly okay for those women to give birth and then struggle to live because they have to raise a child as well as support themselves?

"I want to have sex, but I don't want to be pregnant" Is this the kind of thinking people have nowadays when they know that sex can lead to pregnancy?

People use contraception and protection but even that isn't 100% effective like others have said and yet people expect that a fetus that came about as an accident has more rights than the woman who is currently the one that is pregnant and has a choice to either grow the fetus and have the baby or just get rid of that bunch of cells so they can move on with their life. Wow, just wow.

 

[DiscostewSM]

EDIT: Would you answer the question of what women should do if the contraception fails?

Doesn't using a contraceptive come with the knowledge that it isn't 100% reliable? Everyone takes risks, but it seems many feel that their "risk" shouldn't be taken out on themselves when they get unlucky. That seems to be the consensus nowadays.

 

[thisismyname]

Now, this is leading me into the territory of no abortion whatsoever, though I already made my stance on raped victims.

So it is the mother's choice about the abortion? What about Gianna Jessen, an abortion survivor from the attempt of her mother, and the many others who survived abortion? Where was their choice to live? Why should they suffer with the ailments and disabilities that came about because of the attempted abortion?

History has shown that the sad result is that any group that has ever been considered notoriously victimized (in this case, "women," as a social group) just gets some arbitrarily large number of free passes to victimize some dehumanized "others," until that group amasses enough sympathy that the cycle starts over with them. We've enabled that. Not sure how that will work out with unborns though; they're not good at victimizing others.
@[member='BlueStar']
.....and also, to all those out there who think babies can come from toenails......that's not right either......
Many people, like me, believe abortion is pretty much exactly like shooting a person. I would give people who did such things the exact same sentence; neither a capital one, btw.

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