How Japanese manga can land international travelers in jail

[Mantis41]

Doesn't mean we should ban it, it just means I don't like it.

Banning it is not the issue. Sure ban it if it doesn't fit your culture. The problem here is they arrested someone on CP grounds for having pictures that did not exploit anyone in real life. If the culture finds it offensive then just confiscate (delete) the pictures and inform the holder that they are not appropriate in this country or state.

 

[Kwartel]

I could rant about this, but I'll keep it short.

Some people are pedophiles. There is nothing wrong with that, because it's just their sexual orientation. They didn't choose to be one. If they molest a kid, then it's bad. When someone rapes a girl of his age it's bad, but that doesn't mean that being straight is wrong. The [censored] is wrong. If pedophiles have the urge to masturbate to certain pictures or videos containing children and they choose for a drawn or animated variant, so there won't be any harm done to any child, they have done the right thing. Saying things like "It will encourage them to molest a real child." is really bullshit, because (voluntary adult) porn or hentai doesn't encourage me to molest someone. It actually keeps many people sane I think. People who feel the need for sexual interaction, but can't get any voluntary sex.

Now for myself: I like loli on a certain level. When they look around 14+, I like it. (I'm 17 here, so that's not pedophile. xP) To put it in images:

This girl in a sexual setting:

Spoiler

NO!!
This girl in a sexual setting:

Spoiler

yes

 

[ForteGospel]

*snip

If you break the law, you committed a crime. Not all laws broken require a victim. Thus, a crime can not be defined by having a victim.

The rest is basically just unrelated drivel minus the CP bit, which obviously one can not argue. The idea is also that people shouldn't be fapping to imagery of nude children. Animated or not, that is not considered okay. I find it really hard to believe that people are defending nude and/or erotic depictions of animated children.

Think about it. Wikipedia's lolicon page has a picture depicting a very vague form of lolicon. The law doesn't clearly state to what extent of lolicon is allowed and not allowed. True, lolicon can mean nudity and all of that, but it can also applies to that image on the wikipedia page. If I save that image to my hard drive and the police finds out that I have it in my HD, I can get arrested. Does that make any sense to you? It doesn't to me.

The argument here is not "there's a law stating that it's illegal, thus it's illegal." The argument here is that this isn't supposed to be categorized illegal because there's no harm going on due to it; if the law says it's illegal, there has to be a victim for this law to be valid. It is certainly true that there isn't a need for a victim for every law, but in this case, it does apply and it is important. All of this law thing and your "people shouldn't be fapping on imagery of nude children", whatsoever are all about morals that have nothing to do with legality or ownership of such material. If somebody likes stuff like this, leave him be, he likes it. It doesn't have anything to do with you. You just think it's a wrong thing. For them, it's not. You just have to deal with it.

there is a good chance that your explorer downloaded that picture into its cache already, so that picture already exist in your hard drive. and even if you clear your cache the picture can be restored

 

[Elrinth]

I've been rooting for anti-lolicon legistaltion and legal action for a long time now. People like to argue it's not CP because "it's just pictures/cartoons", always purposely ignoring how big of a following hentai has, and it's use as a mastabatory aid. Loli is a grey area CP, and I'm glad nations are finally taking action towards this pedophilic, "art."

So you are saying if I draw a picture of a guy molesting a little girl. Then I give this picture to a friend, then my friend should go to jail?

or if someone makes a movie and has a scene in it of a guy molesting a child (not real), then everyone who watches this movie have to go to jail

 

[sputnix]

I've been rooting for anti-lolicon legistaltion and legal action for a long time now. People like to argue it's not CP because "it's just pictures/cartoons", always purposely ignoring how big of a following hentai has, and it's use as a mastabatory aid. Loli is a grey area CP, and I'm glad nations are finally taking action towards this pedophilic, "art."

So you are saying if I draw a picture of a guy molesting a little girl. Then I give this picture to a friend, then my friend should go to jail?

or if someone makes a movie and has a scene in it of a guy molesting a child (not real), then everyone who watches this movie have to go to jail

what the law stipulates is if the images have any artistic value then their ok, do the images add to the story [if their is any] what is the story, does the story try to prove something. This is really what we should be debating here is if graphic loli in general is graphic for the sake of being graphic or being graphic to prove a point. An example of something graphic that adds something to the overall story is the opening [censored] scene of a 10 year old girl in "A time to kill" because of this scene the audience becomes more attached to the father, so when the father kills the two men with no remorse the audience is more inclined to agree with him than they would without the scene.

So what I want to know is, is general graphic loli or graphic sexual manga with underaged children graphic for the sake of being graphic.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

So you are saying if I draw a picture of a guy molesting a little girl. Then I give this picture to a friend, then my friend should go to jail?

or if someone makes a movie and has a scene in it of a guy molesting a child (not real), then everyone who watches this movie have to go to jail

Difference is if your friend paid for the product knowing damn well there was that type of material in there. It's not "loli" manga is drawn and then shoved in someone's pocket before they can go "What the fuck is this shit" and throw it out. People buy it knowing damn well what is being depicted.

As for the film, that's just a shit example since it would never get through the censors. Plus there's a different context. A film would most likely depict the act as disgusting and crude. Not something to be enjoyed, but more like something you'd have to sit through and you'd be rooting for the guy involved to get shot in the head. And hell, it wouldn't surprise me if he was by the end of the movie.

 

[Ace]

So you are saying if I draw a picture of a guy molesting a little girl. Then I give this picture to a friend, then my friend should go to jail?

or if someone makes a movie and has a scene in it of a guy molesting a child (not real), then everyone who watches this movie have to go to jail

Difference is if your friend paid for the product knowing damn well there was that type of material in there. It's not "loli" manga is drawn and then shoved in someone's pocket before they can go "What the fuck is this shit" and throw it out. People buy it knowing damn well what is being depicted.

As for the film, that's just a shit example since it would never get through the censors. Plus there's a different context. A film would most likely depict the act as disgusting and crude. Not something to be enjoyed, but more like something you'd have to sit through and you'd be rooting for the guy involved to get shot in the head. And hell, it wouldn't surprise me if he was by the end of the movie.

With todays film standards, I would definitely not be surprised if something like this passed in Europe (Human Centipede? A Serbian Film? any of those ring a bell?)

@Elrinth: Umeå FTW!

 

[notmeanymore]

This is why I do not download loli.

If I ever do, it'll be TrueCrypted like a boss.

 

[Shuji1987]

Difference is if your friend paid for the product knowing damn well there was that type of material in there. It's not "loli" manga is drawn and then shoved in someone's pocket before they can go "What the fuck is this shit" and throw it out. People buy it knowing damn well what is being depicted.

As for the film, that's just a shit example since it would never get through the censors. Plus there's a different context. A film would most likely depict the act as disgusting and crude. Not something to be enjoyed, but more like something you'd have to sit through and you'd be rooting for the guy involved to get shot in the head. And hell, it wouldn't surprise me if he was by the end of the movie.

Oke, so placing it in a different context makes it suddenly oke to watch? It's still child abuse regardless.

Just because the context changes to make you find it less disgusting and crude shouldn't make it oke. Either you are fine with it or you aren't.

In any case, I don't get how a drawing relates to being a pedophile or warrants a punishment. It's just stupid if you ask me as the line that you draw is subjective.

 

[Skelletonike]

Hum... The way Canada is doing things is wrong. D=
I mean... I have no problems with mangas or hentais that have loli's on it, actually, just recently have loli's been allowed in hentai games (dunno about the h-mangas), I recall that most games had loli looking characters, but all the chars were stated as being over 18+ in the story, so that just made everything ok at the time. xP
Anyway... Fiction and reality, it's quite a big difference... I can understand how some people might see loli mangas as obscene but even so, people should always know whats real and fiction and differentiate whats right from whats wrong...
A good example for this case would be the GTA games, people play it, on that game you murder people, steal things, smuggle drugs (not sure about this part) and run away from the cops, yet, this game is acceptable (well, by the majority kinda) while it's also moraly incorrect... Hell... Mostly everyone in their right mind knows that a fiction isnt reality... I hate pedos and all those creeps, there was a huge scandall about it a couple years ago in my country (and is still ongoing), however it can't be compared to lolis, specially since in most cases (besides those involving rapes and the like), hentai mangas have a nice and decent story.

(Sorry if my post is somewhat confusing, I'm tired and making a post like this is hard right now xP)

 

[Foxi4]

Wow... Like Australias ban on loli anime/manga. Western civilizations just don't get it. Loli is not child porn.

Sure, because when you draw something, it immediatelly becomes 99% less offensive.

No. You should not be sexually arroused by pictures of children, drawn or not. Not saying that it's a criminal offense at all, no - the man should not be arrested. Just giving you my opinion on what you just said.

 

[Shuji1987]

Wow... Like Australias ban on loli anime/manga. Western civilizations just don't get it. Loli is not child porn.

Sure, because when you draw something, it immediatelly becomes 99% less offensive.

No. You should not be sexually arroused by pictures of children, drawn or not. Not saying that it's a criminal offense at all, no - the man should not be arrested. Just giving you my opinion on what you just said.

Because everyone who looks at it becomes instantly aroused ammiright?

There are a lot more motives for said person to look at it, besides even remotely getting aroused.

 

[Foxi4]

Wow... Like Australias ban on loli anime/manga. Western civilizations just don't get it. Loli is not child porn.

Sure, because when you draw something, it immediatelly becomes 99% less offensive.

No. You should not be sexually arroused by pictures of children, drawn or not. Not saying that it's a criminal offense at all, no - the man should not be arrested. Just giving you my opinion on what you just said.

Because everyone who looks at it becomes instantly aroused ammiright?

There are a lot more motives for said person to look at it, besides even remotely getting aroused.

I'm not going to argue with that logic when 95% of loli art includes at least one up-skirt shot.

Truth to be told, it's obviously not "child pornography" in the "disgusting" sense, but it does depict child-like characters in often sexual poses. It should not be banned, but trying to say that this type of art is totally unrelated to sexuality is IMO perposterous and simply doesn't fly.

 

[Shuji1987]

Wow... Like Australias ban on loli anime/manga. Western civilizations just don't get it. Loli is not child porn.

Sure, because when you draw something, it immediatelly becomes 99% less offensive.

No. You should not be sexually arroused by pictures of children, drawn or not. Not saying that it's a criminal offense at all, no - the man should not be arrested. Just giving you my opinion on what you just said.

Because everyone who looks at it becomes instantly aroused ammiright?

There are a lot more motives for said person to look at it, besides even remotely getting aroused.

I'm not going to argue with that logic when 95% of loli art includes at least one up-skirt shot.

Truth to be told, it's obviously not child pornography and should not be banned, but trying to say that this type of art is totally unrelated to sexuality is IMO perposterous and simply doesn't fly.

Just because it can include a drawing from a certain viewpoint doesn't mean a thing. To name a few reasons. one could be in possesion of said manga to support their favorite artist, or that they like the drawing style or simply to study it to help them draw. I'm not saying there aren't people who get aroused by it, but saying that is the purpose of it is a bit farfetched.

Putting labels on people might be an easy solution, but it's really not the way.

 

[Foxi4]

I'm far from putting labels on anyone, I'm just stating an obvious fact. The sun rises in the east, sets in the west, loli readers read loli mangas for the loli's.

Everybody has a prefference of some sort - some people like normal everyday porn, some people like standard hentai, some like furries, some like loli's. I'm only arguing about whether this is a depiction of underage people - it is.

The only bannable instance regarding sexuality should be "whenever someone gets unwillingly hurt in the process", which is not the case with drawn porn. Hence, the popularity of Guro in some circles. Doesn't make it any less gruesome, but some people dig it.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Just because it can include a drawing from a certain viewpoint doesn't mean a thing. To name a few reasons. one could be in possesion of said manga to support their favorite artist, or that they like the drawing style or simply to study it to help them draw. I'm not saying there aren't people who get aroused by it, but saying that is the purpose of it is a bit farfetched.

Putting labels on people might be an easy solution, but it's really not the way.

People don't accidentally draw upskirt shots.

And if your favorite artist spends his time making loli manga, then does that not say something about you (not you personally, but "you" as in "anyone")?

And please tell me what purpose including loli material and drawings in your manga could have other than fanservice? Does it further the plot? Does it reveal a key aspect about the character? Does it help expand the atmosphere? I really doubt it.

 

[Shuji1987]

It's not a fact because you call it one. You are believing that your opinion is the right one, when I simply give mine and say there is more to it. How can you not acknowledge that?

 

[Foxi4]

It's not a fact because you call it one. You are believing that your opinion is the right one, when I simply give mine and say there is more to it. How can you not acknowledge that?

What you're basically saying is that something's not a fact just because I believe in it, the fact that I am sure it's true is completely irrelevant.

Now let's say that the earth is actually flat because hey, 99,999% of humanity's never seen it from space, just on photographs which could just as well be forged.

 

[Skelletonike]

Just because it can include a drawing from a certain viewpoint doesn't mean a thing. To name a few reasons. one could be in possesion of said manga to support their favorite artist, or that they like the drawing style or simply to study it to help them draw. I'm not saying there aren't people who get aroused by it, but saying that is the purpose of it is a bit farfetched.

Putting labels on people might be an easy solution, but it's really not the way.

People don't accidentally draw upskirt shots.

And if your favorite artist spends his time making loli manga, then does that not say something about you (not you personally, but "you" as in "anyone")?

And please tell me what purpose including loli material and drawings in your manga could have other than fanservice? Does it further the plot? Does it reveal a key aspect about the character? Does it help expand the atmosphere? I really doubt it.

Well, in some mangas and animes it actually does make a difference, the loli characters that is. Like Zero no Tsukaima and Toradora where the female lead looks like a loli (although they're not lolis just short and flat xP) since their looks, actually has a heavy influence on their attittudes and behaviour.

Edit: Just remembered my sig actually has loli on it, well, doesn't really matter

 

[Foxi4]

Just because it can include a drawing from a certain viewpoint doesn't mean a thing. To name a few reasons. one could be in possesion of said manga to support their favorite artist, or that they like the drawing style or simply to study it to help them draw. I'm not saying there aren't people who get aroused by it, but saying that is the purpose of it is a bit farfetched.

Putting labels on people might be an easy solution, but it's really not the way.

People don't accidentally draw upskirt shots.

And if your favorite artist spends his time making loli manga, then does that not say something about you (not you personally, but "you" as in "anyone")?

And please tell me what purpose including loli material and drawings in your manga could have other than fanservice? Does it further the plot? Does it reveal a key aspect about the character? Does it help expand the atmosphere? I really doubt it.

Well, in some mangas and animes it actually does make a difference, the loli characters that is. Like Zero no Tsukaima and Toradora where the female lead looks like a loli (although they're not lolis just short and flat xP) since their looks, actually has a heavy influence on their attittudes and behaviour.

There's a whole CANYON between looking like a loli and up-skirt shots, or even plain groping.

Also (Shuji1987):