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The obvious take here is that it isn't controversial if the rules allowed her to compete.
You can assume whatever you want dude, you do a lot of that. It doesn't change the facts that bioligcal men competing in womens sports is wrong, unfair to women and is ruining those sports for the real women that compete in them. Also not many people watch womens sports compared to men's sports - but even less will tune in when you have biological men pretending to be women. If people wanted to watch men competing in sports then they'd just watch mens sports - nobody wants to watch a cheat.So far, I am starting to assume that you don't actually care about the issues and just want to punch down on trans people.
We will most likely be extinct in 5000 years. Over 99.9% of all species that have ever existed are extinct. It only takes 1 large asteroid to wipe us out, a giant solar flare to blow away our atmosphere, a super virus, nuclear war, etc.Well, to be fair, in 5000 years we could probably change our DNA like we change our clothes. That is, if we survive and thrive long enough.
None of those are addressing my points, impressive how you've avoided them once again. So why are cis women put on T-blockers when they have higher testosterone?You can assume whatever you want dude, you do a lot of that. It doesn't change the facts that bioligcal men competing in womens sports is wrong, unfair to women and is ruining those sports for the real women that compete in them. Also not many people watch womens sports compared to men's sports - but even less will tune in when you have biological men pretending to be women. If people wanted to watch men competing in sports then they'd just watch mens sports - nobody wants to watch a cheat.
I've aready told you to read the full thread, points have been addressed already - you are just too lazy to read them, either that or you are just not bright enough to understand what's been said already.None of those are addressing my points, impressive how you've avoided them once again. So why are cis women put on T-blockers when they have higher testosterone?
Well, the reason why there’s a big hubbub about this in women’s sports and not in men’s sports is because the average FtM transitioner will get absolutely trounced in most scenarios anyway. Even after long-term therapy and similar levels of serum testosterone their grip strength, lean body mass and BMD figures are not competitive with their male counterparts. There isn’t even a lot of literature on this subject because it’s an obvious conclusion.It's funny how biological advantages are seen as perfectly acceptable in male sports but seen as "unfair" in women's sports.
Ok, but you also didn't actually address the issue I've been bringing up. Cis women are also subject to treatment like being put on T-blockers when their testosterone is too high and that's considered acceptable and fair. No one tells men that they need to suppress their natural hormones or that their presence is unfair to other men competing. The issue with the entire trans debate in sports is that it's created an entire environment where even cis women with natural advantages are told they are unfair.Well, the reason why there’s a big hubbub about this in women’s sports and not in men’s sports is because the average FtM transitioner will get absolutely trounced in most scenarios anyway. Even after long-term therapy and similar levels of serum testosterone their grip strength, lean body mass and BMD figures are not competitive with their male counterparts. There isn’t even a lot of literature on this subject because it’s an obvious conclusion.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34953881/
There’s no danger of FtM athletes taking over men’s sports. There *is* a *perceived* danger of MtF athletes demolishing female competition in women’s sports.
I disagree with that assessment - even if your dystopian prediction came to pass, the only tangible result would be making women’s sports more tolerable to watch.You can assume whatever you want dude, you do a lot of that. It doesn't change the facts that bioligcal men competing in womens sports is wrong, unfair to women and is ruining those sports for the real women that compete in them. Also not many people watch womens sports compared to men's sports - but even less will tune in when you have biological men pretending to be women.
What! you've never watched women's Gymnastics?I disagree with that assessment - even if your dystopian prediction came to pass, the only tangible result would be making women’s sports more tolerable to watch.
I’m an evil person sometimes.
Men are routinely checked for elevated levels of hormones and other performance enhancing drugs, you’re talking tripe. The reason why it’s more tightly controlled in women is because elevated levels of testosterone are highly unlikely to occur naturally.Ok, but you also didn't actually address the issue I've been bringing up. Cis women are also subject to treatment like being put on T-blockers when their testosterone is too high and that's considered acceptable and fair. No one tells men that they need to suppress their natural hormones or that their presence is unfair to other men competing. The issue with the entire trans debate in sports is that it's created an entire environment where even cis women with natural advantages are told they are unfair.
Tennis is funnier.What! you've never watched women's Gymnastics?
Woman's MMA is good to watch, I also like women's kick boxing.Tennis is funnier.
Being checked for performance-enhancing drugs is one thing, being told that your T-levels are too high to compete with other women and that you need to put on T-blockers to make yourself fairer is another. Men are celebrated when their natural bodies allow them to perform better in sports, while women are restricted. These are not level standards.Men are routinely checked for elevated levels of hormones and other performance enhancing drugs, you’re talking tripe. The reason why it’s more tightly controlled in women is because elevated levels of testosterone are highly unlikely to occur naturally.
I'm going to stake the claim that most people don't care and they just want to use this as a focal point to "safely" put forth their rhetoric.
The suggestion here is to remove the hormonal bar altogether, am I understanding you correctly? If that were to pass, what exactly is stopping a man in a wig to win a woman’s championship? I’m not talking about a transwoman, I’m talking about a man in a wig who says he’s a woman for the purposes of trouncing a bunch of women for the lulz. What is your proposed alternative to hormone testing?Being checked for performance-enhancing drugs is one thing, being told that your T-levels are too high to compete with other women and that you need to put on T-blockers to make yourself fairer is another. Men are celebrated when their natural bodies allow them to perform better in sports, while women are restricted. These are not level standards.
I am actually not suggesting that one should remove a hormonal bar altogether and honestly, I am fine with a standard that does require trans women to be on HRT and be on the level with cis women. I do not agree with the notion that a man in a wig full of testosterone would be fair. My concern is that the conversation about "biological advantages" largely ignores how those same standards in male sports and even seen as desirable. I believe that kind of value needs to be in women's sports as well as it's kind of fucked up that even cis women are told their bodies are wrong when they have an advantage. Simply put, I would like to see social changes where women aren't put down for the same traits that men would be praised for.The suggestion here is to remove the hormonal bar altogether, am I understanding you correctly? If that were to pass, what exactly is stopping a man in a wig to win a woman’s championship? I’m not talking about a transwoman, I’m talking about a man in a wig who says he’s a woman for the purposes of trouncing a bunch of women for the lulz. What is your proposed alternative to hormone testing?
If your figures are not aligned with what is naturally expected for your body type, it makes perfect sense to introduce guidelines. I am yet to see one male athlete “being praised” for an elevated level of testosterone, your premise is imaginary. For the record, I believe that an elevated level of testosterone in women should be permitted if naturally occurring, the onus of proving foul play is on the league, not the athlete. That being said, I’m not the head of a sports league, and that’s not what this thread is about, so the entire diversion is off-topic, all things considered. HRT is (more or less) standardised, women are not, so it’s a weird aside on your part.I am actually not suggesting that one should remove a hormonal bar altogether and honestly, I am fine with a standard that does require trans women to be on HRT and be on the level with cis women. I do not agree with the notion that a man in a wig full of testosterone would be fair. My concern is that the conversation about "biological advantages" largely ignores how those same standards in male sports and even seen as desirable. I believe that kind of value needs to be in women's sports as well as it's kind of fucked up that even cis women are told their bodies are wrong when they have an advantage. Simply put, I would like to see social changes where women aren't put down for the same traits that men would be praised for.
I am not just talking about hormones, I am talking about factors like body size, such as looking for the tallest dudes for basketball, the biggest dudes for football, and so on. But as it's gotten off-topic, I shall return to my normal nonsense elsewhere.If your figures are not aligned with what is naturally expected for your body type, it makes perfect sense to introduce guidelines. I am yet to see one male athlete “being praised” for an elevated level of testosterone, your premise is imaginary. For the record, I believe that an elevated level of testosterone in women should be permitted if naturally occurring, the onus of proving foul play is on the league, not the athlete. That being said, I’m not the head of a sports league, and that’s not what this thread is about, so the entire diversion is off-topic, all things considered. HRT is (more or less) standardised, women are not, so it’s a weird aside on your part.
…why would you *not* look for the tallest man for a basketball team? Are you under the impression that women who play basketball are 5 foot and a sneeze? The average size of a woman in the WNBA is 6 feet. That’s taller than 85.5% of men in the U.S. (only 14.5% of American men are 6 feet tall or over). They’re, quite literally, in the top 1% of women in terms of height. They’re chosen *because of their height*, just like men are.I am not just talking about hormones, I am talking about factors like body size, such as looking for the tallest dudes for basketball, the biggest dudes for football, and so on. But as it's gotten off-topic, I shall return to my normal nonsense elsewhere.
It's funny how biological advantages are seen as perfectly acceptable in male sports but seen as "unfair" in women's sports.
Transphobia in women's sports doesn't just affect trans women, it affects cis women as well. Cis women also have to meet the requirements put on trans women. If the same standard were put into male sports, the rules would instantly be deemed "unfair" and shut down before they even got purposed. Let's not pretend this is about the fairness of women's sports, it's about fucking over trans people.