Hacking Need some Infos about the Wii and Games

eleison

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Hi there,

like the topic suggests, i need some infos from you.

First, i've to describe my problem. I bought me an HD PVR to capture some Gamefootage. Everything works fine, and my first capture was from CoD. The PVR Capture software decides atomatically about the fps by the source, and the video was about 60 (59,97) fps. I thoght: "Hell, yes! That's awesome. 60 FPS and that in progressive!" (i captured per component in 480p).

But in premiere i was confronted with the reality: Going down to 20% of the speed for slow motion, i recognize, that the footage isn't nearly 60FPS.

My Questions are as follows:

I'm form germany, and here we have PAL_B standarts, what means 25 fps interlaced... or so. But im wondering, if that also counts for 480p. What decides about the FPS generell? The Game, the Country, the resoultion? Also I wondering about the fact, that i can in usb loader "Force NTSC" what is 30 FPS Standart. But ist it only, that the Game runs and NTSC gets emulated and my real screen footage is anyway 25 FPS?

Also im a bit courius about the FPS Anouncements from the Developer: Take CoD MW for the Box/PS3. They say it runs at 60 FPS. But at the PC you cann have 47, 38 12,122... what ever. How can they say, that the game runs in 60 FPS generelly? Or is it the avarage FPS? And when you go up with the resolution at the pc, there is more power needed. But why doesnt it matter, if i play 576i, 480i, 480p ? The game runs in all resolutions identically.

An at last, but im pretty sure there won't be a posibillity, is there any tool for the wii, wich can look up at the fps?

I really hope you can help me with this problem.

Thanks for reading and sorry for my english
smile.gif
 

Sao Mortel

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First of with WII NTSC does not have anyting to do with FPS. Its only for DVD movies and such that have 29.97 FPS. It has more something to do with resolution, color and HZ. So the game makes the FPS it wants and the wii converts its in the right amount of hertz so its displayed always perfectly.

The way you record stuff has nothing to do with what you record. You could be recording snow(does it still exist) on your tv at awesome resolution!! the problem comes from your pvr maybe from the cables components vs hdmi

BTW don't be sorry for your english and change the country you are from....
 

Cerveau

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Hi eleison!

As you are from germany and your bad english - and I'm german as well and my english also isn't the best - i will reply in german, so you shoult understan it better as well ...

Als erstes darfst Du die anzahl der berechneten Frames=Bilder und der angezeigten Bilder=Wiederholrate nicht zusammen würfeln!

Wenn Du deinen Monitor z.B. mit 60Hz laufen lässt, stellt dieser auch seine 60 Bilder/Sekunde dar, nicht mehr und nicht weniger.
Die Framerate, die die Spiele anzeigen, gibt die Anzahl der Bilder an, die die Grafikkarte in der Sekunde berechnet und somit im Ausgabe-Puffer verfügbar sind.
Ist dein Monitor z.B. auf 60Hz eingestellt, fragt dieser den Puffer 60 mal in der Sekunde ab und zeigt dessen Inhalt an:
Wenn die Grafikkarte z.B. 120 Bilder in der Sekunde berechnet, wird nur jedes 2. Bild angezeigt und die restlichen werden verworfen (dropped).
Wenn die Grafikkarte z.B. nut 30 Bilder in der Sekunde berechnet, wird jedes Bild doppelt (2x) angezeigt, da jedes Bild 2x ausgelesen wird, weil es sich in der Zwischenzeit nicht geändert hat.

Wenn ein Spielehersteller sagt, das ein Spiel mit 60Hz läuft, dann heißt das auch nur, dass das Bild auf einem Monitor der auf 60Hz eingestellt ist dargestellt werden kann,
es heißt jedoch nicht, dass genau 60 Bilder pro Sekunde berechnet werden! Die Anzahl der berechneten Bilder kann höher, aber auch niedriger sein ... die Aussage gibt hierüber keine Auskunft.

was das erzwingen des NTSC-Moduses betrifft: Eine Europäische Wii versucht immer die Spiele im PAL-Standard auszugeben. Wenn dann ein Amerikanischen Spiel, das mit NTSC arbeitet, und
somit die Bilder in dieses Standard berechnet werden, die Wii diese jedoch dem Fernseher sagt, es ist PAL, funktioniert es nicht! Heutzutage kann eigentlich jeder Fernseher sowohl PAL als auch NTSC.
Dieser muss nur wissen dass es NTSC ist. Daher muss die Wii gezwungen werden dem Fernseher zu sagen das das Spiel im NTSC- und nicht im PAL-Standard läuft, sonst versteht er die Wii nicht.

Genauso ist es auch mit deinem PVR: die Wii läuft im 480p modus. Nach Standard ist dies 854x480 Pixel mit 60Hz (progressive) und sagt dieses deinem PVR, welcher also 60 mal in der Sekunde
ein "Foto" von der Ausgabe der Wii macht. Wenn diese aber z.B. nur 25 Bilder in der Sekunde berechnet, andert sich das Bild auch nur 25 mal in der Sekunde und in der zwischenzeit wird das
aktuelle Bild mehrmals "abgelichtet".

Damit sollten deine Fragen soweit beantwortet sein ...
icon9.gif
 

Cerveau

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QUOTE said:
we ask that all members participating in the GBAtemp Forums abide by the following rules and guidelines
QUOTE said:
Please post in legible English ONLY.QUOTE
All posts should be made in legible English. Do not make posts or topics in foreign languages, they are likely to be closed. We will be lenient on this rule from time to time as long as it doesn't become a habit amongst members.

It's not strickly disallowed to post in other languages than english!
As he already mixed something up and it seems not to be a Wii specific problem, but one concerning the PVR - I decided to reply in german for better understanding and less confusion.
 

eleison

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First, thanks aaaaaaaaaalot!
smile.gif


That really helped me out. That means, if I understood it right, no matter how much FPS the game sends, if my TV is 60HZ, I get a maximun of 60 FPS, because the Wii translates it that way. A the other Hand that means, if my PVR captures with 60FPS, I have a lot of similar frames, when I capture CoD for example, because the Game stutters here and there nad so, I think it's close to 25 FPS.

So, i have to find a way to capture the footage near its nativ fps, because with to much same Frames in the Video, a slow motion is very dificult.

Again, thanks alot
smile.gif


Oh, and i change my country now!
 

eleison

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Oh, and one more Question.

If i have a game, wich actually comes up with 30 FPS and i record it at 60 FPS, that means the video has 30 duplicated frames per second. Is there a way to detect the real frame rate post recording and trimm it to that rate without getting out of sync with the audio? Maybee a tool, wich compares all the images and cuts out the duplicated? Because I can't find any other capture software for my PVR
frown.gif
 

Cerveau

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For any recommendations it would be helpful which format your pvr records in (container, codecs).
To cut out all duplicated frames would be an bad idea as the "real" framerate isn't constant.
If you know that the framerate is about 30 FPS you should reencode it with this framerate.
If you reencode it without changing the durations the video should remain sync.
(If you change the framerate from 60 to 30 by removing every 2nd frame, every frame will be
displayed longer (2x) and the duration is the same)
 

eleison

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This is the PVR:

http://www.hauppauge.de/de/site/products/data_hdpvr.html

It encodes in h.264 and container is ts,m2ts or mp4.

Hm. Reencoding then wouldn't be a good solution for me. If I change the lenght of the clip, it won't be synchron to the Audio anymore. At the other hand, keep the lenght, would give me the same result at speed changing as leave it at 60 FPS. So i've to find a method to capture it right in the first place...anyhow.
 

Cerveau

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Name | Aspect | Format [SD/ED] | Name | Aspect | Format [HD] |
=================================== ==========================================
480i | 4:3 | 640x480 @ 30 fps | 720i | 4:3 | 960x 720 @ 25 / 30 fps |
480i | 16:9 | 854x480 @ 30 fps | 720i | 16:9 | 1280x 720 @ 25 / 30 fps |
480p | 4:3 | 640x480 @ 60 fps | 720p | 4:3 | 960x 720 @ 50 / 60 fps |
480p | 16:9 | 854x480 @ 60 fps | 720p | 16:9 | 1280x 720 @ 50 / 60 fps |
576i | 4:3 | 768x576 @ 25 fps | 1080i | 4:3 | 1440x1080 @ 25 / 30 fps |
576i | 16:9 | 1024x576 @ 25 fps | 1080i | 16:9 | 1920x1080 @ 25 / 30 fps |
576p | 4:3 | 768x576 @ 50 fps | 1080p | 4:3 | 1440x1080 @ 50 / 60 fps |
576p | 16:9 | 1024x576 @ 50 fps | 1080p | 16:9 | 1920x1080 @ 50 / 60 fps |The Wii doen't support HDTV - only EDTV!
PAL Games will produce up to 25 fps, NTSC games up tp 30 fps.
Only if the game supports EDTV it will produce up to 50 / 60 fps.
(CoD 3 doen't, CoD WaW does)
If the game doesn't support EDTV you can doubtless reencode the video at half the fps to reduce the size of the videofile.
Changing the capture settings wouldn't change anything as you can only capture what the Wii puts out.
A video file consists of independent streams.
As the duration from frame A to frame B in all streams the same, the video will stay sync.
Ie. if you delete every 2nd video frame by setting the dividing the framerate by 2, the duration from frame A to B will be the same.
or if you delete every 2nd audio sample by dividing the samplerate by 2, the duration will also be the same.
I think I mustn't mention that deleting frames or samples usually result in less quality.
BTW: The component output is analogue, the pvr makes it digital and comresses it. Decompressing and comparing 'em pixel by pixel could
result in differences the eye would only hardly recognize.
 

eleison

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Oh, now I see.
There was a Mistake in my plan. If the game delivers 25 FPS and i capture with 30 FPS it has less frames then i would capture with 60 fps. So i thought in the editor, th speed change would be more ..."efficient" and more smooth. But i didn't think about the fact, that the duration is the same, and so, as you say, the 30 FPS are twice as long as the 60 FPS
rolleyes.gif


Anyway. A while ago, i made a little montage for an american gamer (CoD MWR) and there i could in some scenes go down to 10% of speed without pixelmotion and it was smooth. But my captures, and MWR does support EDTV, beginn stutter at 50%. He captured his clips at NTSC standart and i capture mine with EDTV. So my clips should have the same FPS the his, but anyhow... not. I already testet 60HZ and 30 FPS capturing... no difference.

So, can MWR have in the NTSC version more frames then the PAL, though it supports EDTV? But even if, i can't belive that 5 FPS make such a difference in premiere.

And thank you very much for your patience with me
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Cerveau

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There are several MPEG4-Part 10 (AVC)-Codecs.
H.264, VC-1, x264, DivX plus ...
If your software supports one of these codecs it will be capable of playing all these formats,
but if you take a closer look, as by reducing the playback speed, zooming etc. there are
many "errors". You should try another codec/software to get a better quality.
 

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