Hacking Interesting observation re. Xenoblade Chronicles 3D

[drfsupercenter]

Anyone else here pick the game up yet? It came out today in the States.

So I noticed something interesting. Using my hardmodded original 3DS XL on 4.3U, I noticed that when I insert the cartridge, the Manual actually showed up just fine and worked just fine! When I tried to launch the game, though, it said I had to update to 9.4.

So I went ahead and updated it (since I have a backup and can just flash it back easily). First of all, why does a game for N3DS only even have an original 3DS update partition? Anyway, once I was on 9.4, the manual icon disappeared, and when you try to start the cartridge it pops up a message that "this software isn't compatible with your 3DS" before even attempting to open it.

Was there something added between 4.x and 9.4 that scans for the "KTR" model (which is what Xenoblade is, opposed to CTR) and displays that message? I'm almost curious if you could simply force the game to run anyway by firmware spoofing e.g. Gateway mode, if the game itself even checks or if it's just the pre-launch check.

 

[Nobunaga]

Anyone else here pick the game up yet? It came out today in the States.

So I noticed something interesting. Using my hardmodded original 3DS XL on 4.3U, I noticed that when I insert the cartridge, the Manual actually showed up just fine and worked just fine! When I tried to launch the game, though, it said I had to update to 9.4.

So I went ahead and updated it (since I have a backup and can just flash it back easily). First of all, why does a game for N3DS only even have an original 3DS update partition? Anyway, once I was on 9.4, the manual icon disappeared, and when you try to start the cartridge it pops up a message that "this software isn't compatible with your 3DS" before even attempting to open it.

Was there something added between 4.x and 9.4 that scans for the "KTR" model (which is what Xenoblade is, opposed to CTR) and displays that message? I'm almost curious if you could simply force the game to run anyway by firmware spoofing e.g. Gateway mode, if the game itself even checks or if it's just the pre-launch check.

I don't think there is any way to launch Xenoblade it's like you are forcing a PS2 to run a PS3 game but yeah maybe 3DS and N3DS share some files or maybe Nintendo did that on purpose so that the users would update their 3DS (but that would be meaningless )

 

[drfsupercenter]

Yeah, but putting a PS3 game in a PS2 won't prompt you to update your PS2

 

[Nobunaga]

Yeah, but putting a PS3 game in a PS2 won't prompt you to update your PS2

But even If someone gets it to run the console itself won't be able to handle the game I think :/

 

[Foxi4]

There's a New3DS-specific NCCH region dedicated for New3DS system updates, for instance: http://3dbrew.org/wiki/NCSD#Overview

So yes, there are differences in ROM structure. Simply put, if NCCH[6] is present, the game is 100% for the New3DS since that index is reserved for that system. I'm sure there's other differences as well, I haven't dug into the matter myself.

 

[gamesquest1]

in regards to the on cart update.......well why not, it blocks hacks so let people update all they like, all the better for nintendo.......plus its probably included just so the game doesn't try to run, if you try start it on say 4.x classic mode it bypasses the update prompt and hangs, so it updates old3ds's just so it can then be aware not to run it

and the reson it hangs is the same reason 7.x encrypted stuff hangs on <7.x as xenoblade uses n3ds only encryption

 

[drfsupercenter]

There's a New3DS-specific NCCH region dedicated for New3DS system updates, for instance: http://3dbrew.org/wiki/NCSD#Overview

So yes, there are differences in ROM structure. Simply put, if NCCH[6] is present, the game is 100% for the New3DS since that index is reserved for that system. I'm sure there's other differences as well, I haven't dug into the matter myself.

That's helpful, thanks. What point was this added? Obviously 4.3 didn't look for NCCH[6].

Also... wait. You know that Super Smash Bros. re-release that has the 9.2 update? That has the update for both original and new 3DS systems and obviously still works on original ones. So I think you may be mistaken there, it likely has something to do with NCCH[6] but not simply "is it there y/n"

I'll make a video later showing what I'm talking about.

 

[Foxi4]

There's a good reason why there's a 3DS update partition on an N3DS cartridge - it wouldn't be able to show that incompatibility message to you otherwise. Yes, it's really that simple. Since the compatibility check works on the level of the OS you don't have to worry about coding a message about incompatibility into the game (as it was done with GBC titles).

That's helpful, thanks. What point was this added? Obviously 4.3 didn't look for NCCH[6].

Also... wait. You know that Super Smash Bros. re-release that has the 9.2 update? That has the update for both original and new 3DS systems and obviously still works on original ones. So I think you may be mistaken there, it likely has something to do with NCCH[6] but not simply "is it there y/n"


I'll make a video later showing what I'm talking about.

The number of NCCH indexes and, by extension, NCCH partitions is pre-set, it's just that not all of them are used at this moment. They can be utilized with subsequent firmware updates. There's nothing standing in the way of a cartridge having both a 3DS and an N3DS update archive, they're kept in separate regions and Xenoblade is one of the games that has both. I'm assuming all N3DS games will be like that.

 

[drfsupercenter]

There's a good reason why there's a 3DS update partition on an N3DS cartridge - it wouldn't be able to show that incompatibility message to you otherwise. Yes, it's really that simple. Since the compatibility check works on the level of the OS you don't have to worry about coding a message about incompatibility into the game (as it was done with GBC titles).

Right, but with GBC games, the game would actually boot, as in it shows the GAME BOY logo, and then it displays the message. It could have worked the same way with this, but instead it doesn't even attempt to boot, it displays a message while you're still on the home menu. In fact, there's apparently already a title update, and even though my 3DS XL had the scrolling "there's an update for this title!" text across the banner, pressing A just gave me the incompatibility message and didn't ask if I wanted to install the update either.

The number of NCCH indexes and, by extension, NCCH partitions is pre-set, it's just that not all of them are used at this moment. They can be utilized with subsequent firmware updates. There's nothing standing in the way of a cartridge having both a 3DS and an N3DS update archive, they're kept in separate regions and Xenoblade is one of the games that has both. I'm assuming all N3DS games will be like that.

No, I get that, but what I'm asking is, what would the fundamental difference between SSB v2 and this game be? Both have both of those partitions, but only one displays the incompatibility message. There has to be something else it's checking for, not just that. Like... if the software starts with KTR instead of CTR, for example, but it's probably not that simple.

 

[Kohmei]

I feel like this is another thinly veiled refusal to believe XBC is N3DS exclusive software

 

[drfsupercenter]

Nah, I understand that it is, I'm just curious what makes the old 3DS refuse to launch it. It seems to stop the game from booting before even attempting it.

 

[Foxi4]

Nah, I understand that it is, I'm just curious what makes the old 3DS refuse to launch it. It seems to stop the game from booting before even attempting it.

Just download more RAM, it'll work for sure. ;O;

 

[grossaffe]

Just download more RAM, it'll work for sure. ;O;

I have a place I get my RAM from, but do you have a place where you can download more cores?

 

[Foxi4]

I have a place I get my RAM from, but do you have a place where you can download more cores?

I just shove these under the backplate, works like a charm.

 

[froggestspirit]

I'm pretty sure the update is so that the O3DS can tell that this is a N3DS game. Before then, the O3DS may not have known that there is even N3DS games in existence.

The game will probably not even boot if you force it on O3DS, due to different encryption that the N3DS uses (iirc)

 

[grossaffe]

I just shove these under the backplate, works like a charm.

how have I never heard of those before?

 

[Bonovox40]

how have I never heard of those before?

You mean that flavor? They're not too bad. I still remember the "tart n tangy" green bag one, before they dropped it and it became "sours".

If u never tried the "darkside" flavors, those are great.
Sorry, sweet tooth over here. Still miss Bonkers from the 80's like a sugar crack addict.

 

[grossaffe]

You mean that flavor? They're not too bad. I still remember the "tart n tangy" green bag one, before they dropped it and it became "sours".

If u never tried the "darkside" flavors, those are great.
Sorry, sweet tooth over here. Still miss Bonkers from the 80's like a sugar crack addict.

I've never heard of the darkside, either!

 

[tony_2018]

The game was specifically created for the N3DS/N3DSXL, its been said more than once, I'm damn sure it states it on the box as well. There is even a thread started on trying to force it to work on the 3DS/3DSXL, not sure how far that got.

 

[Foxi4]

The game was specifically created for the N3DS/N3DSXL, its been said more than once, I'm damn sure it states it on the box as well. There is even a thread started on trying to force it to work on the 3DS/3DSXL, not sure how far that got.

Nowhere because it obviously won't work.