Easy mode ruins your game

[weavile001]

i love easy mode, it makes the game more manangeable

 

[Rasas]

Dark Souls and Demon Souls should be a good game for some of you. Plus some games allow you to just watch the story on easy without challenge or decrease puzzle difficulty instead of the combat. I usually don't get stuck on puzzles but some people hate puzzles in their game.

Well really you've just proven my point in a way.

Obviously you're in too much of a rush to finish the game than be prepared to enjoy the game and all of challenges.

If you have reached a point to where you have to grind then either:

1. You got to said point quickly and your char aint levelled up enough.

2. You are able to win the challenging battle with your current char's level but it's too much much like hard work, so you avoid the battle for now and level up further.

It isn't about speed sometimes or difficulty play Disgaea's Item World, F2P games most of the time or several other Atlus RPGS sometimes it just forces you to grind to get some endings or beat the game because your level 300+ guy won't hurt the level 4000 guy. Games like Skyrim, Dead Island never really force you to grind much. Final Fantasy is another example of this with the older games since 1-8 you didn't have to be that high level to beat the game. Some games just force you to grind to get everything and it can be painful.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

How the hell do you choose the different options in that game? Was in the options or something or was it at the beginning of the game and I just missed it entirely. I don't remember choosing RPG mode or whatever.

i think just after creating your character you get to choose what changes you want in your game, i choosed a more rpg experience but i still felt it was just a shooter imo.

Well it's not going to skip all the combat sequences, but it basically sets combat to easy. So if you're bad/don't like shooters but love the story, you can play the game without having many issues with playing the actual game.

 

[YoshiKart]

Kid Icarus Uprising says hi.

I agree, easy modes make games much more pathetic. But I guess the option is nice for casuals and noobs. You really gotta grow up in the NES era and work your way up to truly know what playing video games is.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Kid Icarus Uprising says hi.

I agree, easy modes make games much more pathetic. But I guess the option is nice for casuals and noobs. You really gotta grow up in the NES era and work your way up to truly know what playing video games is.

Well I think games marketed on difficulty have it. Like Devil May Cry, Dark Souls, and (as people have made it out to be) Kid Icarus. In fact most games that aren't founded on difficulty have some shitty difficulty scaling. Usually they just add health to enemies and reduce yours. Like Call of Duty. It doesn't make the game more challenging, it just makes it more obtuse.

If you want a great article on the matter, here's one from TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

 

[Deleted_171835]

Well I think games marketed on difficulty have it. Like Devil May Cry, Dark Souls, and (as people have made it out to be) Kid Icarus. In fact most games that aren't founded on difficulty have some shitty difficulty scaling. Usually they just add health to enemies and reduce yours. Like Call of Duty. It doesn't make the game more challenging, it just makes it more obtuse.

If you want a great article on the matter, here's one from TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/.../FakeDifficulty

Kid Icarus is quite different, though. Instead of cut-and-dry difficulty options, there's a risk vs. reward type system.



You adjust your intensity level based on what you can handle. And as you get more experienced and better at the game, you'll be able to do well at higher intensity levels. They add an incentive for choosing a higher difficulty/intensity too with the advantage of getting better weapon drops and stuff.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

I haven't had much experience with KI so I've kinda left that obscure. It seems like they do a good job difficulty scaling. Unfortunately though a lot of games can't do that.

 

[YoshiKart]

Kid Icarus Uprising says hi.

I agree, easy modes make games much more pathetic. But I guess the option is nice for casuals and noobs. You really gotta grow up in the NES era and work your way up to truly know what playing video games is.

Well I think games marketed on difficulty have it. Like Devil May Cry, Dark Souls, and (as people have made it out to be) Kid Icarus. In fact most games that aren't founded on difficulty have some shitty difficulty scaling. Usually they just add health to enemies and reduce yours. Like Call of Duty. It doesn't make the game more challenging, it just makes it more obtuse.

If you want a great article on the matter, here's one from TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/.../FakeDifficulty

I loved reading the Fake Difficulty page.
It really pisses me off when a stereotypical xbox kid flaunts beating CoD(s) on Veteran. Sometimes those kinds of fake difficulty games are worse than easy mode games like mentioned in the source.

 

[Lanlan]

Kid Icarus Uprising says hi.

I agree, easy modes make games much more pathetic. But I guess the option is nice for casuals and noobs. You really gotta grow up in the NES era and work your way up to truly know what playing video games is.

Well I think games marketed on difficulty have it. Like Devil May Cry, Dark Souls, and (as people have made it out to be) Kid Icarus. In fact most games that aren't founded on difficulty have some shitty difficulty scaling. Usually they just add health to enemies and reduce yours. Like Call of Duty. It doesn't make the game more challenging, it just makes it more obtuse.

If you want a great article on the matter, here's one from TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/.../FakeDifficulty

Thanks for linking that site, that's some interesting stuff.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

I don't think it is because all it really does is waste people's time and drag a game that would normally be able to finished story wise in about 3-5 hours to a 20 or 30 hours because you need to endlessly grind to get through to the next bit.

Well really you've just proven my point in a way.

Obviously you're in too much of a rush to finish the game than be prepared to enjoy the game and all of challenges.

If you have reached a point to where you have to grind then either:

1. You got to said point quickly and your char aint levelled up enough.

2. You are able to win the challenging battle with your current char's level but it's too much much like hard work, so you avoid the battle for now and level up further.

So wanting to actually be engrossed in the story isn't enjoying the game?

JRPGs need to take a page from MonsterGirl Quest's book on grinding and random battles mainly because all the random battles are part of the story so you only get about 3-4 battles while travelling between towns which makes grinding non-existent and you still level up enough to fight the boss.

 

[Hyro-Sama]

I don't see how easy mode can be detrimental if used strategically.

 

[DS1]

I don't see how easy mode can be detrimental if used strategically.

What do you mean by 'used strategically'? The only example I can think of would be TWEWY, where you can change difficulties to obtain different drops.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

So wanting to actually be engrossed in the story isn't enjoying the game?

JRPGs need to take a page from MonsterGirl Quest's book on grinding and random battles mainly because all the random battles are part of the story so you only get about 3-4 battles while travelling between towns which makes grinding non-existent and you still level up enough to fight the boss.

Quoting you to show I'm discussing the argument, not that I agree/disagree with you.

Grinding is a bad mechanic. Period. It shows that a developer has run out of material or ideas and they need to pad out a game's time with monotony. I mean there's a difference between being underleveled and a need to grind. But there are plenty of games that require grinding. Pokemon is a good example. Do all the trainer battles and little side things you want, you'll still end up in a less than optimal shape for your next gym leader or the Elite Four. I've easily dumped hundreds of hours into various Pokemon games and grinding is definitely a key part.

A good example of a horrible grind would be that Tales of Innocence game. I got to a certain point where they presented a boss that was severely overpowered. It wasn't a difficulty curve, it was a difficulty wall. So I was basically given the choice of not beating that boss or mindlessly grinding. I said "Fuck it" and never touched the game again. Some people may say "Oh that's just part of the franchise" but it shows fucking horrible game design and whoever thought "lol lets put a difficulty wall" should be taken out behind the shed and put down.

Although I hate gradual leveling as well. I forget the correct term but it's when enemies level with you (the term might just be "enemies level with you"). It takes a way a sense of accomplishment. Not that you grinded mindlessly and should get some reward, but that all your experience and stuff doesn't matter since the enemies are basically the same as when you're lvl 1 when you're lvl 50. Of course improved equipment and abilities change this most of the time but every now and then you're stuck with a game with some bad leveling. I love Puzzle Quest: CotW but it definitely had this issue.

Case in point: grinding is a huge design flaw and shows that a developer lacks the ability to create a game that can carry content without unnecessary padding.

EDIT: Also if anyone wants a perfect example of perfect difficulty, I suggest Rayman Origins. I have yet to see a game with a difficulty curve as flawless as this.

 

[Hyro-Sama]

I don't see how easy mode can be detrimental if used strategically.

What do you mean by 'used strategically'? The only example I can think of would be TWEWY, where you can change difficulties to obtain different drops.

Congratulations. You answered your own question.

 

[Rasas]

The rise of micro transactions. With Tales if you didn't want to grind you could buy the DLC (not recommended).

So wanting to actually be engrossed in the story isn't enjoying the game?

JRPGs need to take a page from MonsterGirl Quest's book on grinding

and random battles mainly because all the random battles are part of the story so you only get about 3-4 battles while travelling between towns which makes grinding non-existent and you still level up enough to fight the boss.

Quoting you to show I'm discussing the argument, not that I agree/disagree with you.

Grinding is a bad mechanic. Period. It shows that a developer has run out of material or ideas and they need to pad out a game's time with monotony. I mean there's a difference between being underleveled and a need to grind. But there are plenty of games that require grinding. Pokemon is a good example. Do all the trainer battles and little side things you want, you'll still end up in a less than optimal shape for your next gym leader or the Elite Four. I've easily dumped hundreds of hours into various Pokemon games and grinding is definitely a key part.
F2P need to increase the length people play their games so they buy ingame items. Sure you can add farming with light grinding like Guild Wars but that is just another way to say we ran out of ideas to increase our games length. So what choice do they have people will just resell their game, stop playing or rent it unless they play the multiplayer portion a lot which lets say about half avoid. With lets say Diablo 3 the auction house gets some money but the game will eventually run out of people playing it or decrease significantly.

A good example of a horrible grind would be that Tales of Innocence game. I got to a certain point where they presented a boss that was severely overpowered. It wasn't a difficulty curve, it was a difficulty wall. So I was basically given the choice of not beating that boss or mindlessly grinding. I said "Fuck it" and never touched the game again. Some people may say "Oh that's just part of the franchise" but it shows fucking horrible game design and whoever thought "lol lets put a difficulty wall" should be taken out behind the shed and put down.

Although I hate gradual leveling as well. I forget the correct term but it's when enemies level with you (the term might just be "enemies level with you"). It takes a way a sense of accomplishment. Not that you grinded mindlessly and should get some reward, but that all your experience and stuff doesn't matter since the enemies are basically the same as when you're lvl 1 when you're lvl 50. Of course improved equipment and abilities change this most of the time but every now and then you're stuck with a game with some bad leveling. I love Puzzle Quest: CotW but it definitely had this issue.
It is called level scaling in some games but some games found a nice balance. The enemies did level but your equipment made it so you would slaughter the enemy or that basic enemies didn't do much. A big game that sucked with it was Dead Island a good example is FF8 and Skyrim.
Case in point: grinding is a huge design flaw and shows that a developer lacks the ability to create a game that can carry content without unnecessary padding.

EDIT: Also if anyone wants a perfect example of perfect difficulty, I suggest Rayman Origins. I have yet to see a game with a difficulty curve as flawless as this.

I don't see how easy mode can be detrimental if used strategically.

What do you mean by 'used strategically'? The only example I can think of would be TWEWY, where you can change difficulties to obtain different drops.

Diablo is a good example with a bunch of other RPGS and games with RPG like mechanics. Earth Defense Force being an example.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

@[member='Rasas']

One of the great things about the original Guild Wars though is that you didn't need to grind. The level cap was reached maybe 25% into the storyline. The rest of the time it was about gathering skills, items, gold, whatever. For MMOs in general though, I would say it's bad design to have your return factor be grinding towards an impossibly large level. If people want to go back to your game to do something we hate, then it's bad design. I was an avid Guild Wars player for years and I kept coming back for the PvP and all the post-game PvE stuff. That's great design. I didn't dump years of my life into smacking boars to reach a high level. I think more MMOs need to take a page out of CoD's playback. People come back to playing CoD's multiplayer because it's addictive and fun. MMO players should have that to look forward to, not groan and say "Aw man, I gotta go grind."

EDIT: And for the original Guild Wars, all PvP characters were immediately max leveled and had access to all the items you earned from the single player. So provided you got most of the skills and weapon mods (not a hard task), you could play with equipment and powers equal to a veteran player. Then it came down to skill, not how much you put into it.

The thing with scaled leveling though is that it almost takes away a sense of accomplishment. Take Skyrim for example. You stumble out of that cave as a lvl 1 character with nothing but some basic weapons and a quest. You dump tons of hours into this game, going through dungeons, slaying great beasts, joining every guild, and you still can't act like a master of Skyrim? Why do I still have issues taking down any enemy with a suffix in their name? I've killed Dragons, Giants, Dragon Priests, tons of things, but a Bandit Highwayman still gives me some trouble? C'mon man! Yes, your equipment and skills will make you a lot more powerful than before but the fact that I can't just completely overpower the same enemies I faced when the game started when I'm a hundred hours into it feels silly.

 

[Rasas]

@[member='Guild McCommunist']
While that was a good thing about Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 plus they weren't F2P so it wasn't a good example. Some people will avoid the PVP part and with F2P they get money with micro transactions and ads which if someone doesn't play it for long they probably don't spend on those micro transactions.
They can do the stupid thing and sell equipment/things that you need to be competitive or cosmetic items. Those cosmetic items might sell to people who want them all and look a certain way but some people won't buy them. XP boosts, locking features and other things is a way out. Maybe the cosmetic items get enough money so it is fine but greed might overtake them. Some games do lock content and features and they seem to do fine plus with a lot of F2P games your probably looking at someone who has a lot of time to burn in and might enjoy the gameplay enough to not notice it much. I agree that fun gameplay helps and may enjoy the game instead of noticing the level system but lets be honest even with recent CoDs, Bioshock, Killzone and most shooters you get a small advantage having a higher level/rank by having more skills and just choices so grinding isn't a must but it helps you stay competitive. I am against grinding and farming but some people are just looking to accomplish things, be competitive and don't mind the repetitive nature as much.

Skyrim didn't have a perfect balance but level scaling helps you get to certain areas earlier without grinding with FF7 you couldn't get past some points forcing you to go back later. It was a good system but some people hate when enemies are to easy or are to hard and will argue about it. Just look at Oblivion. Level scaling has unfortunately become the norm for most console action RPGS but that doesn't mean it doesn't work all the time.

What they need is the option to level scale or not level scale with easy-hard difficulty so both parties are satisfied.

 

[DS1]

So wanting to actually be engrossed in the story isn't enjoying the game?

JRPGs need to take a page from MonsterGirl Quest's book on grinding and random battles mainly because all the random battles are part of the story so you only get about 3-4 battles while travelling between towns which makes grinding non-existent and you still level up enough to fight the boss.

Quoting you to show I'm discussing the argument, not that I agree/disagree with you.

Grinding is a bad mechanic. Period. It shows that a developer has run out of material or ideas and they need to pad out a game's time with monotony. I mean there's a difference between being underleveled and a need to grind. But there are plenty of games that require grinding. Pokemon is a good example. Do all the trainer battles and little side things you want, you'll still end up in a less than optimal shape for your next gym leader or the Elite Four. I've easily dumped hundreds of hours into various Pokemon games and grinding is definitely a key part.

A good example of a horrible grind would be that Tales of Innocence game. I got to a certain point where they presented a boss that was severely overpowered. It wasn't a difficulty curve, it was a difficulty wall. So I was basically given the choice of not beating that boss or mindlessly grinding. I said "Fuck it" and never touched the game again. Some people may say "Oh that's just part of the franchise" but it shows fucking horrible game design and whoever thought "lol lets put a difficulty wall" should be taken out behind the shed and put down.

Although I hate gradual leveling as well. I forget the correct term but it's when enemies level with you (the term might just be "enemies level with you"). It takes a way a sense of accomplishment. Not that you grinded mindlessly and should get some reward, but that all your experience and stuff doesn't matter since the enemies are basically the same as when you're lvl 1 when you're lvl 50. Of course improved equipment and abilities change this most of the time but every now and then you're stuck with a game with some bad leveling. I love Puzzle Quest: CotW but it definitely had this issue.

Case in point: grinding is a huge design flaw and shows that a developer lacks the ability to create a game that can carry content without unnecessary padding.

EDIT: Also if anyone wants a perfect example of perfect difficulty, I suggest Rayman Origins. I have yet to see a game with a difficulty curve as flawless as this.

Yeah, I totally agree. That's why I pretty much quit every Pokemon game once I get to Victory Road - the Elite Four are basically tailored to cover the weaknesses that you haven't prepared for. So you have to go back and grind out a whole new slew of Pokemon (assuming you hadn't already - and that pains me, because the game isn't giving me a pacing option). This is also why I love TWEWY - no leveling, yet if you want to endlessly grind for stats, you can (simultaneously pleasing the JRPG fans and people who like actually playing games). Game too hard? Change the difficulty. Don't want to change the difficulty? Build a new strategy with a combination of the powers you've acquired. There wasn't a single time in that game where it was like, "Oh no, I've gotta go back and get stronger!" It was, "I am an idiot, I have to actually think my way through how to fight this enemy."

Diablo is a good example with a bunch of other RPGS and games with RPG like mechanics. Earth Defense Force being an example.

Well, I think what you mean is selecting missions/dungeons with different difficulties to obtain better drops, and yeah, that's been a thing forever. But TWEWY extends it by allowing you to change the difficulty on the fly, not like, "Oh, I'm gonna try a harder dungeon this time".

 

[Rasas]

Well it improves game length with DIablo and EDF. I know with TWEWY you can change it on the fly but you can do the same thing with most recent shooters and some other games if the game gets to hard. I know the drops change but they could easily made it so it drops two things at different rates at certain difficulties so people don't have to change it to 100% it.

 

[DS1]

Well it improves game length with DIablo and EDF. I know with TWEWY you can change it on the fly but you can do the same thing with most recent shooters and some other games if the game gets to hard. I know the drops change but they could easily made it so it drops two things at different rates at certain difficulties so people don't have to change it to 100% it.

Like Guild was saying, that's just a superficial way of increasing game length. With TWEWY, it's tailored so you can complete it at whatever pace you want. Of course you have to spend extra time if you want to get 100%, that's the whole point of getting 100% - it's an accomplishment, not something you are forced to do (though I know some people who throw a fit if they can't get 100% easily, and end up following guide word-by-word just to make sure they don't miss anything).