Andrew Yang 2020

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by KingVamp, Aug 29, 2018.

  1. Tigran

    Tigran GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

    Nov 6, 2002
    United States
    The point still stands though that in the US for some assinine reason, it's believed that if we tax the rich, we are going into Socialistic or Communism territory. However charging people who can barely make a living is a good thing.

    The most common excuse I hear though is "They worked hard for their money." No... No most of them did not. The Waltons have not worked a day in their life. They inherited -all- of it. Same with the PoS in charge. He hasn't made a dime using his own hard work, he got all the money from his dad. Yes these people out here who -are- trying to work, often have to do two or three jobs just to afford rent and utilities, are either taxed or tricked by the meme that "You need to go to college!"

    Hell.. I saw where you have to have a high school diploma or a GED to be a bus driver... WHY?! As long as you can read and drive and the usual stuff... why the hell do you need to have a GED?

    Why the hell do you need
    • At least 1 year of retail sales, guest service, and/or management experience required
    • High school diploma or GED required
    To work as an assistant manager at Gamestop? I mean if you can actually do the job, why the Eff would you need a diploma or GED?

    That's the kind of situation we're in now.
    SirBeethoven likes this.
  2. Ericthegreat

    Ericthegreat Not New Member

    Nov 8, 2008
    United States
    His view on healthcare is interesting, why can't we just go with a medi-cal like system for the country? Cleveland clinics idea of a doctor by salary is great, but I can almost guarantee cleavland clinics doctors are some if the highest paid in the world, whereas most hospitals cannot afford that.
  3. Memoir

    Memoir Hi, I'm Cynical!

    Jun 24, 2007
    United States
    In the Murderbox!
    How can you do the job without experience? You can't just launch into managerial positions without some background. I've watched local businesses get ran into the ground because of that.
    CallmeBerto likes this.
  4. Tigran

    Tigran GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

    Nov 6, 2002
    United States
    I'm not saying NO experience.. But yes.. yes you can, easily. If the training is halfway decent at all, you can easily jump into an assistant manager position without any prior knowledge.

    Hell.. My very first job I was basically the manager because I was the only one at work alone at night... answering lawyers phone calls and having to call shit up. And that was day one.. No training at all because the company that hired me were effing idiots and treated night shift like it was the same issues as day shift.

    With a little bit of training, can get almost any job down pretty easily as long as it's not requiring advanced mathmatics or something.

    Sure I actually agree with the "needs to be able to handle customers" thing.. But honestly... I've seen so many managers at so many places who can't talk to customers I wonder how the hell they got the jobs.
    SirBeethoven and TotalInsanity4 like this.
  5. chrisrlink

    chrisrlink Intel Pentium III Hamster inside

    Aug 27, 2009
    United States
    inside your crappy old PC
    hell anyones better than that turd in office now.....anyone's who's worse shouldn't be even legally allowed to run for president because their a threat to our country looking over some issues he has my vote in 2020
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  6. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

    pip Reporter
    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    Was bored. Guy is a bit idealistic for my taste, some nice stuff, some things that really trouble me, some things which I will want to hear more about first. Also a curious mix of positions at times that are not traditionally part of a given package. How much of that is appeasement I do not know.

    More or less in order, I contemplating sticking the important ones first and spoilering the rest but I am bored now and don't think he has any chance so I will leave it at what I have done.

    The equal pay stuff seems fundamentally flawed. If you can demonstrate your boss actively discriminated against you based on [usual list] then nail them to the wall. If you get paid less because you suck at salary negotiations then as the gamers might say. Git gud. My problems with this go much deeper (it both offends my principles of fairness and I want to be able to reward better workers) but I will leave it there for now.

    Universal basic income. There have been some nice studies, some studies showing flaws (not everybody can handle free money, see also an awful lot of lottery winners) and I am not sure how it would be funded. One day, not today/2020.

    Climate stuff. Grow some balls and bring nuclear back online first.

    Prison stuff. Generally agree with most of that. Chances of it happening in practice? Hahahaha

    Opiates. Some OK, a lot of wonky/punitive stuff I really don't agree with. Something truly needs to happen but I am far from sure that is it, or actually a fair way of setting about it.

    LGBT stuff. Bit light there. "Appoint LGBT individuals to senior posts in my administration"... appoint based on merit, if they so happen to be then so it goes. Combined with the equal pay stuff it speaks to a mindset I don't like.

    Guns you say. The person that wrote that wrote it very carefully. That said better, even mandatory, training and buyer analysis I can get behind. They probably could have won some points if they took some technical non issues (suppressors and such, never quite sure where straight pulls end up in the US these days) and opened them up a bit.

    Family aka maternity leave. I do find the approaches stateside to it a bit odd. Let me see details here.

    University. The Ohio thing seems very strange. Are there none there (or with those cross state agreements) or something? Equally it is but a few of the issues I would say need tackling (I think the bias response stuff antithetical to the idea of higher education), though given his approaches elsewhere I don't expect much here.

    Why include privacy and barely cover it in your abortion line? Very odd. Like the attempt to sell UBI in it. Otherwise abortions for all works for me.

    Campaign finance. I do like the UK system of fixed budgets in principle.

    Vocational eduction works for me as well.

    Keep your carbon tax, at least until we have nuclear back on the table (spoiler apparently we might)..

    Teacher salaries... would need to see more info here as I am wary of fluff promises.

    "pre kindergarten"... fancy way of saying free daycare. Tell me more about what you expect to happen.

    Weed laws. Legalise and regulate does seem to be an option worth looking at.

    Puerto Rico a State. Could be expensive but if they want it they seem to have fulfilled the relevant requirements.

    VAT aka sales tax European style. The US sales tax system is a convoluted mess (never mind use tax), anybody that spent 5 minutes looking into it will tell you that. However there do seem to be a lot of places that opt to have none and that gets tricky if you are going to mandate one.

    The pharma thing. They are cunts but predictable and I am not seeing a massive need for action here. Also way to bury a medicare for all policy.

    "Human Capitalism". So they want to do some extra measurements on development, happiness and other such things? OK I guess. I am not sure what extent of control the economy will be needed as part of that but that could upset various economist inclined types.

    Mental health stuff. The state of things there is shocking to me. The "AI counselors" (as in artificial intelligence) stuff might be a bit pie in the sky. Not sure what a stigma campaign will do and why it wants to be first on the list of things when everything else was so carefully written.

    Journalism grants... an odd thing to run on but I am intrigued. "Affirm journalism as a profession" might have some implications for various laws, especially if it confers a barrier to entry like various other professions.

    Second news related thing. "Imbue the FCC with a new office of the News and Information Ombudsman ". Danger Danger Danger. I would not trust the FCC to hold my beer while I tie my shoe.

    "Create a Department of the Attention Economy that focuses specifically on smartphones and social media, gaming and chat apps and how to responsibly design and use them, including age restrictions and guidelines. ". Careful now, that might tip over into something I don't want to see.

    "Every Cop Gets a Camera". Fine in principle. Stuck in there though "e-establish the ban on distributing surplus unnecessary military-level artillery gear to police departments." and "Invest in new non-lethal weaponry that can be used to de-escalate conflicts at range and handprint signature guns so that weapons can only be used by their officers (‘he reached for my gun’ will no longer apply).". Hope you do that with consultation of people on the ground, don't know I would do handprint but some kind of biometrics (I like some of the grip ones) is not the worst plan..

    "NCAA Should Pay Athletes". I think most "college" sports are a disgrace because of that, however I am not sure forcing things here is necessarily the right play. See about making some competition. Also if they want to make cheerleading a sport I am OK with that.

    "Nuclear Launch Decisions" (wants vice president and chief of staff in on the action). A meaningless gesture but OK.

    "Limit Bureaucracy in the Federal Workforce". Curious that he uses the term millenials in this. Anyway fine in principle.

    Local journalism fund. I am not opposed if it is suitably firewalled.

    "Provide Basic Banking Services through the Post Office". Might trouble that competition aspect from the government thing that for some reason exists in the US. No problem in principle though.

    American Exchange Program. That sounds an awful lot like national service, potentially a hard pill to swallow there. What a curious mixture of policies and philosophies we are seeing today. That curious American political term "flip flop", or at least what I think is the underlying idea behind it, I should bring up here (though I find it an odd criticism most of the time).

    Prevent Corruption among Federal Regulators. Limit the speaking engagements of various politicos... an odd choice.

    Closely Monitor Mental Health of White House Staff . Because that always goes so well.

    Free Marriage Counseling for All. If memory serves there are already grants for it under the same thing that gives food stamps. Another curious policy choice. Wording makes me wonder whether it is family counselling or just marriage based.

    Automatically Sunset Old Laws. Everybody promises legal reform. Come back with some results. Seems also an amendment is to be pushed for as part of it. Good luck with that one.

    "Prosperity Grants". Everybody gets to donate to a non-profit (presumably with taxes or something). Interesting choice.

    "Prevent Airlines from Removing Customers [essentially for] [for any reason other than that customer is posing a threat to other customers]". Tricky one that, might be a step too far in interfering.

    "Improve the American Scorecard" Seen before with the metrics thing.

    "Increase Assistance for Single Parents". Laudable in theory, not sure it wants to be single parents as much as single parents and those that might meet some criteria.

    "Fund Medical Technology Innovation" Guy seems to have a thing for telepresence based stuff. That said more research is not a bad thing, the US has been a bit lacking of late.

    "Fund Autism Intervention". Would have put that under the general mental health stuff but OK I guess.

    "Rebuild American Infrastructure". So says everybody. Show me results.

    "Reduce Student Loan Burden". Some good ideas. Some ones that might be iffy or hard to push through.

    "Medicare for All". Fine by me if they do it right.

    " Expand Access to Medical Experts". Again with the AI?

    "Support the Revival of Earmarks". Call it a hesitant try it and report back.

    "Make it Easier to Save for Retirement" "Create a tax-free investment vehicle into which people can opt to automatically have a portion of their income directed"... sounds like a national pension scheme to me.

    "Free Financial Counseling for All". Kind of wish it would have happened in schools but it might solve a problem.

    "Make Community College Affordable for All". Was this not covered earlier?

    "Life-Skills Education in All High Schools". Oh look. That said I like most of that one, especially the meals thing.

    "Modernize Military Spending". Not sure about using the military as government sanctioned builders but the US pays an awful lot for its military and gets back proportionally far less than most other places get. Some might say it does not go far enough (still stuck in cold war mode for some) but baby steps I guess.

    "Make it Easy for Americans to Move for Work", also includes a bit on "professional licenses" and the lack of uniformity in their acceptance. The US "professional licenses" system is odd (Germany and Canada being among the most extreme, though Australia is not so far behind for some things) so maybe a shakeup would go there.

    "Implement Mandatory Paid Leave Policy". I like holidays, damned if I would do under current the US system (none and what few have them are fairly minimal).

    " Ease the Transition to Self-Driving Vehicles ". Bit forward thinking there. If driving jobs are replaced by robots then it will be tricky for some.

    " Capital Gain/Carried Interest Tax". I don't know if it is quite as bad as Australia's stuff here (see Australian property markets post them loosening it) but I would not oppose a fiddling with it here.

    "File Income Taxes". Make a simple website where people can file things in 10 minutes like the rest of the world? Solid plan, hopefully you dodge the "competition from the gubmint" laws here as this sort of thing is where I first learned of them.

    "Financial Transaction Tax". Chances of that one getting through? Hahahaha

    "Tort Reform/Reasonableness Dismissals". Show me results.

    "American Mall Act". (short version subsidise some malls) Wrong approach if you ask me. Such things only encourage suburban sprall from where I sit.

    "Pathway to Citizenship". Might be a hard sell, specifics a bit huggy feely even for my taste as well.

    "Entice High-Skill Individuals". It is not that bad as it is from where I sit. Show me some specifics and why you think they will improve things.

    "Zoning" So supporting malls but also zoning reform as a means to affordable housing. OK.

    "Algorithmic Trading/Fraud" Also "Economic Crime" More funding into enforcement and investigation is not a bad plan, especially as most seem to be something of a skeleton crew.

    "Nuclear Energy" Get some building started and we will talk more, including about some of that carbon stuff.

    "Modernize Voting". I am wary of voting machines, as are most people that really know their security. But blockchain... please.

    "Modern Time Banking (Digital Social Credits)". Like Chinese social media currency? Also if the above thing did not sound like national service then this certainly does... albeit "voluntary".

    "Media Fragmentation""Create a Media Responsibility Task Force with leaders of media and tech companies to discuss ways to get Americans agreeing on facts again and removing hostile foreign influence from our discourse."... excuse for a knees up I guess.

    Net Neutrality. Seems to be for it, also local loop unbundling because apparently that has not happened. Hopefully that means ISP monopolies go a bit faster.

    "Regulate AI and other Emerging Technologies". I want my AI overlord. No stopping progress on that.

    "Robo-Calling Text Line" Alert the FCC to robot callers you say. Fair enough.
    KingVamp likes this.
  7. TotalInsanity4

    TotalInsanity4 GBAtemp Supreme Overlord

    Dec 1, 2014
    United States
    Under a rock
    Please... Please read what I wrote again
    SirBeethoven likes this.
  8. KingVamp

    KingVamp Haaah-hahahaha!

    Sep 13, 2009
    United States
    Here I was trying to decide if I should respond to this and what should I respond to, and this one line messed up my thought process. I might reply to more later, but I just wanted to point that out. lol
    TotalInsanity4 likes this.
  9. Subtle Demise

    Subtle Demise h

    Sep 17, 2009
    United States
    Don't get me wrong, I think things like government-funded schools, police, firefighters etc. are good. Even things like food assistance and medicaid are good for families who work full time and still have trouble making ends meet. I've taken advantage of programs ,myself, so some socialist leanings I agree with. I even believe that most of the tax burden should rest with the big corporations and the 1%. I don't agree however that wages need to be equalized. Wage gaps encourage people to take up a trade, pursue education, things like that. No one goes to work at McDonald's for a lifetime career, it's supposed to be a jumping off point. Get some job experience, climb the ranks for a couple years to shift manager or whatever and move on from there to something more sustainable. The big problem is that we've relied too much on the welfare state to bail us out. The government likes the welfare state too, because the people won't take up arms if the government is paying their bills and feeding their family.
  10. Tigran

    Tigran GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

    Nov 6, 2002
    United States

    Except that's not always the case.

    I for example trained both people who where promoted above me... and then when called them out on it.. they claimed I was too important where I was.

    Now... I might buy that I was a bad employee if.. IF I wasn't called in ALL the time because someone else needed help, and if BOTH the people I trained hadn't gone above me... AND the fact that they wanted me to do the extra manager work as well as my normal work. *Hey.. If I wasn't fit to be manager... Why the hell was I always being asked to do the manager work?*

    This was a for a company called Intelliteach, which no longer exists.
  11. KingVamp

    KingVamp Haaah-hahahaha!

    Sep 13, 2009
    United States
    Then it doesn't seem like you should be against basic income. Yes, everyone would get a $1000 a month. This would give everyone a safety net around the poverty line, but this doesn't discourage anything you said nor equalized the wage gaps. Lessen the gap a bit for everyone? Yes. Get rid of it? No. Basic income is literally just a more efficient welfare system. People wouldn't need as much welfare, if at all, because everyone would have at least some money to fall on, before they even start working.

    Poverty traps happen under the certain system, let alone what was already mention about not being able to "climb the ranks", either because of skill or luck, or ,as you pointed out, still not being able to make ends meet.
    Last edited by KingVamp, Aug 30, 2018
  12. SirBeethoven

    SirBeethoven Do good, be good. Let's fight injustice together.

    Nov 26, 2015
    United Kingdom
    Crap, sorry, I really read your comment wrong.
    Tigran likes this.
  13. KingVamp

    KingVamp Haaah-hahahaha!

    Sep 13, 2009
    United States
    Not sure about this one. Seems like a lot of money and I wonder how effective it will be against corruption.

    Agree with you here.

    We really need it. I'm pretty sure we are falling really behind, when it comes to modernization.

    Not sure about that either. I guess on paper it sounds fine, but I wonder how many people would join the military knowing they could be used to build things instead. Maybe this idea should simply be separated from the military?

    Suburban sprall? As much as I like malls from time to time, I feel like this goes under the "jobs that just aren't coming back" section. Seems like a losing battle.

    I still think there should be paper trails, but what's wrong with blockchain?

    Not a ranking system. Doesn't punish you nor is it mandatory, so not really. As long as it isn't required for anything and you have a choice, don't really care about this. That is, if he manages to get this up.

    Unless the plan is to use cryptocurrency, I'm not sure why this doesn't just give money directly.

    How exactly did he buried medicare for all here?

    Yeah, I don't agree with the "nuclear energy or get out" notion here. lol With or without nuclear energy, we should be finding ways to fix the environment.

    Honestly, I know he talks about safety, but the nuclear energy we have now still worries me. Still hoping for nuclear fusion. That said, as long as they can keep the nuclear energy in check, it would be better the co2 we are making.

    Why meaningless? On one hand, it lowers the power the president has. On the other hand, it slows down the decision making.

    Then we can't trust the FCC with anything. :P

    To be fair, he plans to replace the members, just because of the Net Neutrality thing alone. So they should be a bit more trustworthy. Still, it sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure this job should be given to the FCC and would need laws to protect it. Maybe the Task Force instead.
  14. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

    pip Reporter
    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    I have also seen the state of the infrastructure. Every politician ever says it though (it is about as risk free a policy as it gets -- everybody knows someone that hit a pothole and saw a scary story about a bridge falling over. About the only people that would object would be the absolute minimalist government types and they are so rare as to not matter) and it still gets worse. Hence show me results.

    On building stuff I have no problem in principle with them building things and would happily boot out/disallow in* anybody that does not care for it. The trouble for me is more that winning wars is easy (less than a month to take down Iraq sort of thing) but winning the peace is a whole lot different (how many years and counting?). That said if they want to split the door kickers from the might as well be police and politicians that might allay some worries.

    *for all the opposition to welfare and government handouts the military does a stunning job at being that for a lot of people.

    Yeah suburban sprall. The phenomenon where you live in dense neighbourhoods but you still need a car to get to the shops, go to the park or generally do much of anything. Not a great look.

    Blockchain is a buzzword. It sets off my buzzword from the clueless alarms.

    As for medicare for all then
    Nothing really to do with the policy itself but left in there. Most of the other policies in their "As President, I will" stayed on topic.

    I have never seen a carbon tax I care to back. This is no different. By all means incentivise efficiency or something but out and out tax... would have to be very special. Nuclear wise it is a safe and reliable power source as far as I am concerned and a crying shame it is not used more and hobbled by irrational fears where it is used. Equally if you can offset things to nuclear then that will do far more than a few token policies elsewhere.

    Nuclear football wise. I find it meaningless as it has never really been a problem before.

    Net neutrality was just the latest in a long line of screw ups and overreaches by the FCC (if nothing else how far back have the Simpsons and Family guy been taking the piss out of them). For them to then be tasked to vet news and have power to do things... nah, double nah because that kind of power when someone else gets back in (something which should always be a thought when doing such things). Leave them to police the radio spectrum, vet devices for those that want that, ensure telecoms companies don't get too big for their boots and I guess play puritans for the TV (though I would seek a serious reform there as well if I could).
    KingVamp likes this.
  15. Lilith Valentine

    Lilith Valentine GBATemp's Succubus™ The Adorable Enby

    Sep 13, 2009
    Hiding from Area 51 guards
    Edit: Snip, misread that post, sorry about that.
    Last edited by Lilith Valentine, Sep 22, 2018
    Subtle Demise likes this.
  16. KingVamp

    KingVamp Haaah-hahahaha!

    Sep 13, 2009
    United States
    Just an update.

    At the latest debate.

    Reminder of some policies.
    Xzi likes this.
  17. supersonicwaffle

    supersonicwaffle GBAtemp Regular

    Oct 15, 2018
    Unless Yang does some black magic vodoo here that he doesn't really explain on his website you have it completely wrong. VAT is a tax that only targets consumers, businesses are exempt from paying it, which makes sense, because prices would escalate exponentially.

    I'm open to being wrong here but from his website he seems to not really know what VAT is, asserts a whole bunch of stuff and doesn't back it up.

    It kind of is a double edged sword, on one hand you have these hugely popular sports that generate a lot of revenue where it seems players are exploited, on the other hand you have less popular sports with no money in them where sports scholarships on their own are great opportunities for athletes. Oftentimes these programs at school are what allows athletes to stay with the sport into their physical primes and to compete at the highest level while getting an education when that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

    That being said it seems things are moving in the basketball world at least. The NBA G-League (the former developmental league) has introduced a "select contract" that can be offered to players at least 18 years old and not eligible for the NBA draft, it pays $125k over the season. High school prospects can be signed to these contracts for the upcoming 2019/20 season. With Luka Doncic winning rookie of the year recently and the US' world cup performance, playing in Europe might be seens as another path to the NBA as well.

    Would be interested what you consider extreme with Germany's system here. As far as I'm aware it only regulates professions where there's a certain risk of death involved, like physicians, electricians, car or bicycle mechanics.
  18. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

    pip Reporter
    Nov 21, 2005
    United Kingdom
    Bicycle as in pushbike with pedals? Didn't know that. Such a thing would be completely alien to me -- even a car mechanic is not a protected trade around here. I don't know what goes with MOTs these days (annual vehicle inspections) but that is more of an individual garage being certified thing with VOSA (the body governing it) occasionally sending in test cars to places, and there are some courses they like people to have if they are playing with air conditioning refrigerants (not that I rate the skills of most supposedly ticketed car air conditioning people I have ever encountered -- most seem to have learned a technique rather than the meaning behind what they are doing).

    Anyway most of what I see comes from the engineering and scientist side of things, in the case of science I remember reading about some guy that faked some research and they stripped his phd from him despite absolutely no indication that anything untoward happened during the phd (which was some years earlier). They then had to have a section on why that would be the case as phd apparently means something special in Germany.
    Engineering wise then Germany along with Canada is one of the two main places anywhere to properly clamp down on people using the term/title engineer, elsewhere it is a fairly big debate which rolls around ever few years with most people leaning towards "don't do it". Obviously you get things like chartered engineer (these days apparently the engineering council includes a group that deals with computer scientists), and there are some implications as far as being able to testify as an expert in courts (though that gets hazy), but for the most part anybody can call themselves an engineer. There is nothing really like the iron ring thing the US and Canada have here.
    Lower down on the totem pole there is also trades in the UK -- in recent years it has got worse and electricians now have to be registered with a body (I will spare my grumblings about NICEIC for now -- they have long been a money generating operation rather than something useful but it got worse) where before you could call yourself an expert* and roll with that, apparently one also needs to be a member of FENSA to replace a window as well, but prior to that it was pretty much gas and high rise buildings which had requirements and everything else anybody with a van could rock up and do. Australia is a few years further down the path here.
    I did also find the if it is not law then it pretty much is for certain medics to carry around a fairly serious kit at all times slightly odd, though I am not complaining too much here. Medical roles in general can be fun one and there are all sorts of edge cases here (at one point within the last 20 years I believe anybody that was a doctor could declare themselves a plastic surgeon, don't know what goes today), to say nothing of medical sounding things -- dietician vs nutritionist being the classic one.

    *I could be called up tomorrow and asked to reverse engineer, fix or spec a 3 phase hundreds of volts thing (for others playing along at home then 3 phase EU electrics are nominally 400 volts), massive capacitors and transformers type machine. As in big boom, hundreds of thousands (plus whatever productivity loss) and you aren't getting up if I mess this up type setups, and apparently I am technically not allowed to connect three obvious wires if I wanted to replace my home socket with a USB one, or change my light switch for a fancy one.
  19. morvoran

    morvoran Trump supporter

    Dec 19, 2010
    United States
    Drinking leftist tears...Yummy!
    I guess $1000/month can buy someone's vote, along with disregarding everyone else's freedom. Good luck with wasting your vote on Yang. I hope it makes you feel good.

    Combatting Climate Change - wasting money on a hoax that 99% of scientists agree is not a problem.
    Equal Pay - another hoax that has been debunked several times over
    Right to Privacy/Abortion -more like the right to kill babies or let them suffer in soiled utility closets alone until they die.
    Rebuilding American Infrastructure - Not the first democrat to promise this and never follow through.
    Medicare For All - more like take away our private health insurance, doctor's, and right to speedy medical care along with leaving elderly without the care they need which they recieve now.

    I could go on, but this is all moot as he doesn't have a chance to become the nominee, let alone the president.
  20. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Addict

    Nov 21, 2005
    United States

    Yeah I mean look how Trump being in office has trashed the economy.

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