Hacking '3x' drive speed.

[Lord Kanti]

wtf is with all the loader bashing, the damn thing is open software, why not bash on modchips when the sole purpose is to run backups. you can basically do anything a chip can do but run 6x so why bash loader users, and dont play the piracy card when chips do the same damn thing. not only that but the chip companies are profiting, I highly duobt waninkoko and wiigator are swimming in money bins or drinking hawiian punch from custom drinking fountains.

The only thing worse than losing money or not making money is losing that money to a competitor. if a successful loader is released nintendo may still lose money but so will thier competitor chip companies. but then you might say well then the average user could copy and pirate games!!!1!!!ONE!


well the average user doesnt use the TP hack becuase to them hacking is scary. ive offered to hack my friends wii and he's terrified of altering it from stock, even though he is envious of the benefits my wii has over his.

Its time to get off the high horse and open your eyes to reality.

 

[skunk123punk]

wtf is with all the loader bashing, the damn thing is open software, why not bash on modchips when the sole purpose is to run backups. you can basically do anything a chip can do but run 6x so why bash loader users, and dont play the piracy card when chips do the same damn thing. not only that but the chip companies are profiting, I highly duobt waninkoko and wiigator are swimming in money bins or drinking hawiian punch from custom drinking fountains.

The only thing worse than losing money or not making money is losing that money to a competitor. if a successful loader is released nintendo may still lose money but so will thier competitor chip companies. but then you might say well then the average user could copy and pirate games!!!1!!!ONE!


well the average user doesnt use the TP hack becuase to them hacking is scary. ive offered to hack my friends wii and he's terrified of altering it from stock, even though he is envious of the benefits my wii has over his.

Its time to get off the high horse and open your eyes to reality.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I read nearly all the posts on this forum and rarely post reply's but your comments are truly justified.

SkUnK

 

[toastert2003]

I think the progress on this thread has reached it legitimate capacity for remaining open. Lord Kanti represented some very true thoughts in his statements... and on the speed issue (3x) no progress IS being made.. So why not close this thread to prevent it becoming a further haven of bashing.

 

[marcan]

wtf is with all the loader bashing, the damn thing is open software, why not bash on modchips when the sole purpose is to run backups.

Because modchips have nothing to do with homebrew, and shutting down modchips is an entirely different ballgame from shutting down homebrew. The rest of your argument is irrelevant after that. If you feel like pirating games, have fun. Just don't make homebrew get shut down because of it.

 

[TheWon]

wtf is with all the loader bashing, the damn thing is open software, why not bash on modchips when the sole purpose is to run backups.

Because modchips have nothing to do with homebrew, and shutting down modchips is an entirely different ballgame from shutting down homebrew. The rest of your argument is irrelevant after that. If you feel like pirating games, have fun. Just don't make homebrew get shut down because of it.

Wasn't Nintendo trying to shut down Homebrew with the last update? What happen after that? Homebrew worked on another way around it. Nintendo has shown they don't support Homebrew and Region Free. Piracy isn't going to make them work even faster to stop Homebrew. They have been all ready trying to do it.

 

[Lord Kanti]

surely modchips can be used to run homebrew. many times I have asked about a certain feature that sounds promising (not backups) and usually the response is "youd have to have a mod chip first."

one example would be loading the HBC from a dvd etc. cant do that unless you have a chip, if you already have the TP hack then you'd already have the hbc and then the dvd feature would be useless.

exactly how legal is it to alter nintendo's code and run unofficial code for the sake of homebrew? is it less legal than altering the same code forthe sake of backups, after all you state than waninkokos work is merely a copy and paste job of code already feaatured via hackmii etc.

 

[marcan]

Wasn't Nintendo trying to shut down Homebrew with the last update? What happen after that? Homebrew worked on another way around it. Nintendo has shown they don't support Homebrew and Region Free. Piracy isn't going to make them work even faster to stop Homebrew. They have been all ready trying to do it.The first update where they tried to shut down homebrew happened after VC piracy had been going on for a while.

Go read my previous posts. Nintendo doesn't support homebrew, but they aren't going to waste money shutting it down if it doesn't affect them financially. With VC piracy and piracy via loader, it very much affects them financially.

surely modchips can be used to run homebrew. many times I have asked about a certain feature that sounds promising (not backups) and usually the response is "youd have to have a mod chip first."
You don't need a modchip for anything other than playing copied games and in some very specific cases of fixing your Wii with SaveMii. Period. That's why we released libdi - to let every user, modchip or not, read DVDs from homebrew.

one example would be loading the HBC from a dvd etc. cant do that unless you have a chip. if you already have the TP hack then you'd already have the hbc and then the dvd feature would be useless.
You've got it wrong. The DVD installer is just a convenience for people who already have a modchip (and it doesn't work any more, not with 3.3 anyway). The normal installation method is via the Twilight Hack. If you don't have Zelda, you can borrow or rent it.

QUOTE(Lord Kanti @ Oct 8 2008, 06:48 AM) exactly how legal is it to alter nintendo's code and run unofficial code for the sake of homebrew? is it less legal than altering the same code forthe sake of backups

What we're doing is entirely legal. Copy loaders are actually illegal in some countries. Quite a few countries have laws against software or hardware (or both) used to circumvent copyright mechanisms. But the point isn't legality anyway (that's for waninkoko to worry about) - the point is that it pisses off Nintendo and then we get shut down.

QUOTE(Lord Kanti @ Oct 8 2008, 06:48 AM)

after all you state than waninkokos work is merely a copy and paste job of code already feaatured via hackmii etc.

If I send you a .bat file that does "format c:" and pass it off as an image editing program, is it Windows' fault for including the format command? Didn't think so.

 

[skedone]

well said marcan im starting to really like you now your truthful and strait to the point... keep up all your hard work.

now the crawling is over any chance of the info how to get my drive chips firmware would love to have a look round in IDA, I love ASM always will, And have been playing around with mobile phones firmware for quite some time lol

 

[HowardC]

Go read my previous posts. Nintendo doesn't support homebrew, but they aren't going to waste money shutting it down if it doesn't affect them financially. With VC piracy and piracy via loader, it very much affects them financially.

I'm not getting into this argument, but this is an entirely false statment. Nintendo doesn't lose a dime in sales over piracy. What they lose is a b.s. imaginary concept some lawyer made up to have a reason for suit called "potential earnings". Potential earnings don't exist except in some parallel dimension where things were done differently. It's a crazy "what if" scenario that doesn't really have any merit in actual sales. Potential earnings assume that if a consumer couldn't get the software via stealing it, they would have purchased it legally. The truth of the matter is we really don't know if they would have bought it or not.
Lawyers will try to convince you that they would, but human nature suggests otherwise.

Potential earnings are b.s. because:

1. People who steal software don't pay for it. If they could pay for it then they wouldn't steal it. If they could afford to pay for it and still steal it, then they are obviously the type of person who wasn't going to buy the thing anyway.

2. The law of supply and demand suggests that the consumer will be willing to pay the amount they think an item is worth, if they stole it then they obviously didn't think it was worth much, at least they didn't think it was worth much money.

3. The average consumer would find it much to difficult and/or time consuming to steal software than to simply buy it. The cost of a product isn't limited to just money, it's also the expense in time spent for the purchase. For piracy to effect nintendo at any noticable level, it'd have to be easier/more conveniant to aquire and install wads/burn dvds than it is to buy them. Atm it is a convoluted process, so convoluted that nintendo doesn't have to worry about it.

4. Potential earnings also assumes that someone who stole the software isn't going to purchase it. This simply isn't true either. Many people are cautious about buying new software so they "try" it first. If they don't like it then it's tossed... If they do, then they buy it. So yes, in this rare instance nintendo might lose money, the money they could have gotten from consumers who were tricked into purchasing something they didn't want. So yeah it mgiht be a loss, but do you really want to focus your business model around fooling your consumers? (*cough cough* music industry *cough*)


My point is, just because you hear guys in nice suits argue about it on the news doesn't mean that potential earnings are real or that piracy is a legitimate concern. About the only way piracy would REALLY effect a company is if the pirates stood in front of best buys handing out burned copies of all the software inside.

Now that doesn't mean that piracy is legal or morally right, that is another argument, but is it damanging to the companys? In a word, NO.

 

[Lumstar]

Of course Nintendo doesn't support homebrew. In fact, they intend to block all unlicensed software from running. Homebrew or otherwise. Even retail products like Datel ones.

 

[denzil]

Now that doesn't mean that piracy is legal or morally right, that is another argument, but is it damanging to the companys? In a word, NO.

As lengthy and wordy your rationale for piracy is, it is only suited to quiet your conscience. Factually, it is profoundly wrong and just about scratches the surface of things. And in here it's off-topic, at best. Let's have this discussion again when you are trying to make a living off your own intellectual property.

 

[Lumstar]

^ No. WRONG.

 

[Slowking]

Wasn't Nintendo trying to shut down Homebrew with the last update? What happen after that? Homebrew worked on another way around it. Nintendo has shown they don't support Homebrew and Region Free. Piracy isn't going to make them work even faster to stop Homebrew. They have been all ready trying to do it.

The first update where they tried to shut down homebrew happened after VC piracy had been going on for a while.

Go read my previous posts. Nintendo doesn't support homebrew, but they aren't going to waste money shutting it down if it doesn't affect them financially. With VC piracy and piracy via loader, it very much affects them financially.

If I remember correctly, the build-date of the system menu that trys to patch the twilight hack (in true Nintendo-fashion unsuccessfull

) is a few weeks earlier than the first release of the Wad-installer. That would mean, that Nintendo tried to patch th twilight hack without any VC-piracy present at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: I looked around a little bit. The build date of the system menu is March the 6th, as bushing stated here: http://hackmii.com/2008/06/june-16-wii-update/#more-50 .
The first mention of waninkokos wad-installer I could find was here http://wii.ds-scene.net/?s=viewtopic&nid=3069 and here http://www.tehskeen.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29858 on April the 20th. Which means Nintendo tried to block homebrew over a month before VC-piracy was even foreseeable. (and if memory serves right the first VC wads appeared 1-2 weeks after the wad-installer, so it's nearly two months difference)

 

[marcan]

I'm not getting into this argument, but this is an entirely false statment. Nintendo doesn't lose a dime in sales over piracy. What they lose is a b.s. imaginary concept some lawyer made up to have a reason for suit called "potential earnings".

[blah blah blah about potential earnings]
Did I say *every* pirated game results in a lost sale? No. There goes your argument. My argument only relies on the fact that *some* of those pirated games (a decent fraction) are lost sales. The only way you can counter that is by claiming that only very few to no pirated games are lost sales. If you, indeed, believe that, then you are so thoroughly deluded that continuing this conversation would be pointless.

Besides, even under your ideal world view where Nintendo doesn't actually lose any money, that's irrelevant. It's still copyright infringement, and to execs that translates to lost sales, whether true or not. It's not about whether they lose money, it's about whether they think they're losing money.

QUOTE(Slowking @ Oct 8 2008, 01:06 PM) If I remember correctly, the build-date of the system menu that trys to patch the twilight hack (in true Nintendo-fashion unsuccessfull

) is a few weeks earlier than the first release of the Wad-installer. That would mean, that Nintendo tried to patch th twilight hack without any VC-piracy present at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: I looked around a little bit. The build date of the system menu is March the 6th, as bushing stated here: http://hackmii.com/2008/06/june-16-wii-update/#more-50 .
The first mention of waninkokos wad-installer I could find was here http://wii.ds-scene.net/?s=viewtopic&nid=3069 and here http://www.tehskeen.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29858 on April the 20th. Which means Nintendo tried to block homebrew over a month before VC-piracy was even foreseeable. (and if memory serves right the first VC wads appeared 1-2 weeks after the wad-installer, so it's nearly two months difference)

That's an interesting bit of information. Still, though, that was their first attempt, so I could see them bothering to do it. Maybe they foresaw the impending piracy situation, or maybe it was just a general measure to secure the console, or maybe some engineer decided to make the fix without any specific considerations about it from upper management. Unfortunately, we can't change the past, so once Nintendo tries to stop homebrew again, we won't be able to determine if they would have bothered if homebrew didn't bring piracy with it. But it is still my firm belief that Nintendo is going to put quite a bit more effort into stopping homebrew in the future than they would if we didn't have game piracy. After all, if it were homebrew only, they'd probably get pretty tired after the second update when we work around it in days once again. With piracy, they have a strong reason to keep going.

 

[atomikramp]

I'm not getting into this argument, but this is an entirely false statment. Nintendo doesn't lose a dime in sales over piracy. What they lose is a b.s. imaginary concept some lawyer made up to have a reason for suit called "potential earnings".

[blah blah blah about potential earnings]
Did I say *every* pirated game results in a lost sale? No. There goes your argument. My argument only relies on the fact that *some* of those pirated games (a decent fraction) are lost sales. The only way you can counter that is by claiming that only very few to no pirated games are lost sales. If you, indeed, believe that, then you are so thoroughly deluded that continuing this conversation would be pointless.

Besides, even under your ideal world view where Nintendo doesn't actually lose any money, that's irrelevant. It's still copyright infringement, and to execs that translates to lost sales, whether true or not. It's not about whether they lose money, it's about whether they think they're losing money.

QUOTE(Slowking @ Oct 8 2008, 01:06 PM) If I remember correctly, the build-date of the system menu that trys to patch the twilight hack (in true Nintendo-fashion unsuccessfull

) is a few weeks earlier than the first release of the Wad-installer. That would mean, that Nintendo tried to patch th twilight hack without any VC-piracy present at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: I looked around a little bit. The build date of the system menu is March the 6th, as bushing stated here: http://hackmii.com/2008/06/june-16-wii-update/#more-50 .
The first mention of waninkokos wad-installer I could find was here http://wii.ds-scene.net/?s=viewtopic&nid=3069 and here http://www.tehskeen.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29858 on April the 20th. Which means Nintendo tried to block homebrew over a month before VC-piracy was even foreseeable. (and if memory serves right the first VC wads appeared 1-2 weeks after the wad-installer, so it's nearly two months difference)

That's an interesting bit of information. Still, though, that was their first attempt, so I could see them bothering to do it. Maybe they foresaw the impending piracy situation, or maybe it was just a general measure to secure the console, or maybe some engineer decided to make the fix without any specific considerations about it from upper management. Unfortunately, we can't change the past, so once Nintendo tries to stop homebrew again, we won't be able to determine if they would have bothered if homebrew didn't bring piracy with it. But it is still my firm belief that Nintendo is going to put quite a bit more effort into stopping homebrew in the future than they would if we didn't have game piracy. After all, if it were homebrew only, they'd probably get pretty tired after the second update when we work around it in days once again. With piracy, they have a strong reason to keep going.

since we are now completely OT, i'm gonna say my opinion about this.

talking ethically,Security improvement in the past, at present, and in the future, has been and will always be due to hacking community.

the main goal of hacking is to discover security flows so that companies may fix these flows in following software/hardware revisions.

so what's the point of running homebrews?
it's not just "ehy i can write down my app!!"
it's the proof that you can exploit a security flow to run unsigned code on an hardware wich natively wasn't supposed to allow it.

and a good ethical hacker should be happy to see that the hardware manofacturer responds with feedbacks to its discovers releasing fixes and patches to "improve security" in their products.

and that's the point.
hacking is sometime seen in a bad thing becouse hackers generally do all that is in their power to enforce the hardware/software houses to fix security holes.
and in may times it comes to releasing some exploit that can couse big damages to the company.
couse without a big economical damage, companies doesn't take care of the issue in a serious way.

now i have to go to work, but my message wasn't intended to end here.

 

[shredman]

Nintendo is fiercely protective of its IP
Its also fiercely protective of its revenue stream

They WILL endeavour to fix any known piracy loopholes
as soon as they can without compromising hardware integrity

I agree that Nintendo wouldn't be as worried about homebrew
as it is about piracy - unfortunately when the lines are most
certainly blurred they will always side with a 'security update'
mentality....

Rest assured the never ending game of stop me if you can will
proliferate amongst the pirates but homebrew has admirable traits
that i fear will become a tiresome and tedious task to constantly find
new loopholes and security flaws - that seem only to be hijacked
again and again by the pirates

the old adage of whether or not we should even if we can - should
be a motto amongst those that unashamedly promote homebrew
softwares over piracy - and those that do not... be damned...

SHREDMAN

 

[Saladman]

Yawn

 

[Jacobeian]

But it is still my firm belief that Nintendo is going to put quite a bit more effort into stopping homebrew in the future than they would if we didn't have game piracy. After all, if it were homebrew only, they'd probably get pretty tired after the second update when we work around it in days once again. With piracy, they have a strong reason to keep going.

I don't really think so... I think they feel concerned about any security issues as soon as it allows anybody to run unsigned code on their hardware(could also lead to security issues, for example if some people started developping "Wii" viruses), that means without giving them the ability to control softwares running on their proprietary hardware.

Also think that "legit" homebrew potientially could impact them financially (libogc=free devkit, geckoOS & Freeloader= no region control, emulators = pirated roms, ...). In their mind, it's clear that homebrew = piracy = forbidden area, not only because it could harm their sale but because it's an intrusion in their system and that they can not allow this.

 

[daytonajesse]

What we do to OUR wii's is our business.
I bought the hardware it's mine to do with as I please, even if Nintendo doesn't like it.

That being said once piracy is involved all bets are off, Nintendo IS losing money BOTTOM LINE.

Not as much as Nintendo would have you believe, and definetly not as little as the pirates would have you believe either.

I typically buy 10-15 games per console lifetime, I rent them too sometimes. For my own personal morality, once I have purchased my typical saturation point of stuff per console (games & accessories), I don't feel so bad about taking the odd game free of charge. As I wouldn't really be buying anymore stuff anyway. They MAY lose 1-2 game purchases from me over the life of the console, but at the same time I've spent approx $1000 already so I don't feel bad.

 

[noobwarrior7]

guys, start a new thread, people are going to be looking for information about the 3x limitation, and the very tiny amount that is in this thread is never going to be findable by them if this conversation never moves elsewhere, and the whole mess will start again in a new 3x thread because of it.