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13 Russians, 3 businesses indicted by Mueller/Rosenstein in connection to Trump

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Xzi

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Btw...is this piece still related to the OP in any way?
Apparently not. I wouldn't mind if the mods would do some cleaning in here, maybe move off-topic stuff to that generic "discussion on politics" thread, but at the same time I realize this is a lot to sift through.

Either way, I've just been waiting on more Mueller news to post. I missed this one a day ago:

'Manafort meets with Mueller prosecutors'

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/01/paul-manafort-meets-mueller-prosecutors-855388
 

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Has there been any updates on this issue? I'm assuming nothing will come of it. Our current government doesn't listen to the needs of the people and never took ethics 101 (apparently including supreme court nominations). I have little hope of the good guys winning anything this time around.

Going against human nature is a really great way to fail. Instead of trying to fix human nature, why not build around it? A free-market system is the most natural of all systems, since private property is the basis of all human interaction and decision making. Telling people that they can't do certain things with their money, bodies, or lives is so unnatural that it's a wonder we got as far as we did with valuing it as little as we do.
Why do people assume natural=good? It's very confusing. You have to work with human nature in-mind, yes, and you can leverage it with great success, but you can't just assume letting human nature do its thing will lead to progress. We need to channel the more destructive elements of human nature, not let them be as destructive as they'd like to be as you're arguing for.
 
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Has there been any updates on this issue? I'm assuming nothing will come of it. Our current government doesn't listen to the needs of the people and never took ethics 101 (apparently including supreme court nominations). I have little hope of the good guys winning anything this time around.


Why do people assume natural=good? It's very confusing. You have to work with human nature in-mind, yes, and you can leverage it with great success, but you can't just assume letting human nature do its thing will lead to progress. We need to channel the more destructive elements of human nature, not let them be as destructive as they'd like to be as you're arguing for.

I never said it was good, you just assumed I did. Next time please try to refrain from putting words in my mouth. Natural means natural. We're pretty violent. That's not good, but do you know what we do? We built an entire industry of media fulfilling that natural desire. Now, it would be nice if everyone could dance in the daisy fields and have an everlasting peace, but that is unnatural. That is not going to happen. Is it a shame? Yes, it is, but that is how life is. We can try to make it as peaceful as possible, but in the end war and violence is natural. So is greed, and like with war, you can try your darndest to stop it, but in the end it's natural. You CANNOT stop greed, so instead of having a massive power hierarchy, where only a few benefit from greed, why not let more people benefit? You say you have to "channel the more destructive elements of human nature, not let them be as destructive" which is exactly was a free market does. In a free-market system, everyone benefits if you want something. Let's say that you write a book, for instance, and you've wanted to publish a book for a long time, a lifelong goal, and perhaps make a nice amount of money. Guess what? Because you are publishing that book in order to make some money and fulfill a selfish dream of yours, you just helped out perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. You've helped out the editors, the people in the factories that print the book, and the people who WANT to buy their book to fulfill their own desire to read it!

Plus I would like for you to say was is destructive about my argument, because if we just let greed be destructive, it would mean me going over to my neighbors and slitting his throat to steal his TV that I really really wanted.
 
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osaka35

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to try and bring this back on topic lol we need to be able to hold folks accountable for their actions, especially if they're in government. the seriousness of the position should allow for greater scrutiny, not less.

I never said it was good, you just assumed I did. Next time please try to refrain from putting words in my mouth.
Going against human nature is a really great way to fail....A free-market system is the most natural of all systems, since private property is the basis of all human interaction and decision making. Telling people that they can't do certain things...is so unnatural.

It was heavily implied. You were using "natural" as a reason why the free-market system is the best system to use (best, given your other comments. though perhaps you don't think it's the best?). Seems fairly straight forward you thought it being "natural" was one of the main reasons it was a good system. Are you saying you weren't saying it's good because it's "natural"?

Natural means natural. We're pretty violent. That's not good, but do you know what we do? We built an entire industry of media fulfilling that natural desire. Now, it would be nice if everyone could dance in the daisy fields and have an everlasting peace, but that is unnatural. That is not going to happen. Is it a shame? Yes, it is, but that is how life is. We can try to make it as peaceful as possible, but in the end war and violence is natural. So is greed, and like with war, you can try your darndest to stop it, but in the end it's natural. You CANNOT stop greed, so instead of having a massive power hierarchy, where only a few benefit from greed, why not let more people benefit? You say you have to "channel the more destructive elements of human nature, not let them be as destructive" which is exactly was a free market does. In a free-market system, everyone benefits if you want something. Let's say that you write a book, for instance, and you've wanted to publish a book for a long time, a lifelong goal, and perhaps make a nice amount of money. Guess what? Because you are publishing that book in order to make some money and fulfill a selfish dream of yours, you just helped out perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. You've helped out the editors, the people in the factories that print the book, and the people who WANT to buy their book to fulfill their own desire to read it!

Plus I would like for you to say was is destructive about my argument, because if we just let greed be destructive, it would mean me going over to my neighbors and slitting his throat to steal his TV that I really really wanted.
A free market is only free when given structure. It is not inherently going to resist corruption. And slitting your neighbors throat is very much restricted against and that is something you are told you cannot do :P For many of the same reasons, folks are told they can't do certain things with their businesses or treat people a certain way. Just because a game has rules does not make the game unplayable, they're usually there so the game itself can be played and fairness established.

A free market is constantly trying to become a fixed market, and it's our job to ensure the holes are plugged and the free market is assured.
 
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These "them" generally don't come asking me for advice. Part of the problem is that until it goes sideways, it's a win for all the parties involved. Brokers, the notary and the seller just get payed, and don't even get to see your financial situation. The bank also gets payed, as I've outlined. That just leaves buyers who need to get smart about a thing they've never done before in their life.

Btw...is this piece still related to the OP in any way?

So what's your suggested solution?
 
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to try and bring this back on topic lol we need to be able to hold folks accountable for their actions, especially if they're in government. the seriousness of the position should allow for greater scrutiny, not less.




It was heavily implied. You were using "natural" as a reason why the free-market system is the best system to use (best, given your other comments. though perhaps you don't think it's the best?). Seems fairly straight forward you thought it being "natural" was one of the main reasons it was a good system. Are you saying you weren't saying it's good because it's "natural"?


A free market is only free when given structure. It is not inherently going to resist corruption. And slitting your neighbors throat is very much restricted against and that is something you are told you cannot do :P For many of the same reasons, folks are told they can't do certain things with their businesses or treat people a certain way. Just because a game has rules does not make the game unplayable, they're usually there so the game itself can be played and fairness established.

A free market is constantly trying to become a fixed market, and it's our job to ensure the holes are plugged and the free market is assured.

While I'm a very pro-free-market guy, I 100% agree with you. Espescially among the huge megacorps, there does need to be laws against anti-competitive practice. The problem I have with regulation beyond that and other common sense business laws (no child labour, etc.) is that they tend to help the big guy more then the little guy.
 
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SG854

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@brickmii82 Lenders didn’t just out of nowhere start to give risky lending to people who were not qualified under traditional loans, which was the fixed interest rate and 20% down payment. It was government that was pressuring and even threatening banks under persecution of the Justice Department to loan to people who didn’t qualify under the traditional way. If a Black person is rejected for a loan it’s not racism. It’s because they can’t keep up with payments and have bad credit.

They were giving out mortgages with no down payment, no income verification, and other creative ways. Subprime loans grew because banks were forced to meet quotas under governments stupid equality of outcome paradise. And this whole problem for taking risky loans was to try to fix another government created problem which made houses more expensive because of land and building restriction laws. This problem wasn’t everywhere in the U.S., it was only in specific housing markets like in coastal California where government interference caused artificially high prices and it was too expensive that people in these markets became desperate which lead to riskier creative loans pushed by government.

In the 90’s the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) required mortgage lenders to collect data and show them the data to see if they were meeting the quotas under the Community Reinvestment Act to push for mortgage loans to lower income people. And while all this suing was going on from both the HUD and Department of Justice against mortgage banks just because there was a disparity in Black and White rejection rates, when at the same time Whites were being rejected from loans more often then Asians. But this information never got out even though they are on the same statistical data.

Fannie May and Freddie Mac were government sponsored programs that bought risky mortgage loans from banks and they were pushed by government agencies. There was a promise that government will not let Fannie May and Freddie Mac fail in a crisis which allowed for risky loans. Glass Steagall is irrelevant because government wanted to push for more home ownership. Under a free market banks wouldn’t have made the risky loans to people who couldn’t afford because they are a business, they wouldn’t survive with all these bad loans. It wasn’t free markets and deregulation that failed, it was government that failed for forcing private banks to give bad loans. It’s government regulation that caused the Housing Boom and Bust.
 

brickmii82

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@brickmii82 Lenders didn’t just out of nowhere start to give risky lending to people who were not qualified under traditional loans, which was the fixed interest rate and 20% down payment. It was government that was pressuring and even threatening banks under persecution of the Justice Department to loan to people who didn’t qualify under the traditional way. If a Black person is rejected for a loan it’s not racism. It’s because they can’t keep up with payments and have bad credit.

They were giving out mortgages with no down payment, no income verification, and other creative ways. Subprime loans grew because banks were forced to meet quotas under governments stupid equality of outcome paradise. And this whole problem for taking risky loans was to try to fix another government created problem which made houses more expensive because of land and building restriction laws. This problem wasn’t everywhere in the U.S., it was only in specific housing markets like in coastal California where government interference caused artificially high prices and it was too expensive that people in these markets became desperate which lead to riskier creative loans pushed by government.

In the 90’s the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) required mortgage lenders to collect data and show them the data to see if they were meeting the quotas under the Community Reinvestment Act to push for mortgage loans to lower income people. And while all this suing was going on from both the HUD and Department of Justice against mortgage banks just because there was a disparity in Black and White rejection rates, when at the same time Whites were being rejected from loans more often then Asians. But this information never got out even though they are on the same statistical data.

Fannie May and Freddie Mac were government sponsored programs that bought risky mortgage loans from banks and they were pushed by government agencies. There was a promise that government will not let Fannie May and Freddie Mac fail in a crisis which allowed for risky loans. Glass Steagall is irrelevant because government wanted to push for more home ownership. Under a free market banks wouldn’t have made the risky loans to people who couldn’t afford because they are a business, they wouldn’t survive with all these bad loans. It wasn’t free markets and deregulation that failed, it was government that failed for forcing private banks to give bad loans. It’s government regulation that caused the Housing Boom and Bust.
I suppose I don’t disagree with what you’re stating, however it was only part of the issue that caused the crisis and collapse. There were many other factors as well.

At the heart, my point is that some regulations/laws are necessary to hold those accountable that engage in scrupulous investing activities. I will concede that over regulation is just as dangerous as under regulation.

http://www.stat.unc.edu/faculty/cji/fys/2012/Subprime mortgage crisis.pdf

This honestly has gone off/topic so I’ll just leave this as my last contribution to the side-discussion. That was a very well written and thought out point so you deserved a response.
 
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So what's your suggested solution?
Bank regulation. Before the crisis, banks soothed themselves after granting a bad loan that if they didn't do it, another bank would have. Regulations make sure that people desperately wanting things they can't afford, don't get loans they...well: cannot afford.
As a customer, it's not as fun either. To get a loan, you pretty much have to prove that you don't need one. And as I'm finding out, there are more hoops to jump through than last time (background check of my job payments, a minimum start capital, thorough checks from the notary, and even an independent estimation on the value of the house). But in the end, they'll be for my own good.

And on the positive side: the apartment I'm writing this post from is mine. When I first expressed my interested in it, I was told that it was in the process of being sold to someone else. I thought that that was that...until a couple weeks later, I heard that they couldn't get the loan. It's obviously a pity for whomever wanted this place before me, but the reason he or she couldn't get the loan wasn't because the bank didn't want to grant it but because the chances were most likely too high for that person to be able to pay back the loan. As I've shown in my previous post, that situation can be pretty costly when in that situation...

BTW: this'll be my last post in this thread (honestly: it only gets sidetracked further). If there are further questions, I'll make another thread about it. :)
 
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Attacker3

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It was heavily implied
You mean you heavily inferred it.
Might want to tidy up your language then.
I've said everything I wanted to say in the way I wanted to say it, it is not my problem if people want to take it the wrong way.
and it's our job to ensure the holes are plugged and the free market is assured.
Then tell me this, friend, why the fuck isn't there a true free market anywhere? The closest we have is Hong Kong or maybe Switzerland, but even then, they're heavily regulated and still have massive issues with government meddling. If the purpose of government was to keep a free market intact, they've failed so badly that it brings into question the point of such an inept entity. How can you say that a market is free with literally thousands upon thousands of rules saying what people can and cannot do? That's isn't free!
A free market is constantly trying to become a fixed market
Ok friend, fixed by who? Let's say there is no government involvement and there is no huge power structure to control the market. What would corruption do other than destroy individual businesses? Corruption is also natural, so why not make sure there isn't a way for it to influence literally everyone. You're saying that we need a government to add only slight regulation to the market to stop it from becoming a fixed market, but in order to add even the slightest amount of government regulation, you need to assert that you are in control of the markets, and with that, it will just grow from there.

baka lainposters >:c

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Bank regulation. Before the crisis, banks soothed themselves after granting a bad loan that if they didn't do it, another bank would have.
That's the thing, if the government hadn't given out literal tens of billions of dollars to other banks to buy out the failing ones, the banks that were doing shitty things like this would've gone under.
 
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osaka35

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If the purpose of government was to keep a free market intact, they've failed so badly that it brings into question the point of such an inept entity. How can you say that a market is free with literally thousands upon thousands of rules saying what people can and cannot do? That's isn't free!

I think at this point it's important to define what you think is a success.

For me, I care mainly about increased GDP, increased quality of life for everyone, and decreased environmental impacts. I require all three in order to consider the method to be a success.

How many rules do you think are appropriate? And why do you think this will make a free market more successful?
 

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For me, I care mainly about increased GDP, increased quality of life for everyone, and decreased environmental impacts. I require all three in order to consider the method to be a success.

There's a couple things. First off, which is more important? If you had to choose an increased quality of life for everyone, or a decreased environmental impact, which would it be? If you could have all the governments in the world shove most of it's production into one, which would it be?


How many rules do you think are appropriate? And why do you think this will make a free market more successful?

Pretend there are 3 regulations introduced over some years. 1 costs a business 40 thousand dollars. A company already established says “ok, I will do this, I will take a hit, but it will be alright”. Then, 3 years later, another comes out, which costs 60 thousand dollars. The company already established says “ok, I will do this. I will take a hit, but it will be alright”. Now, another 3 years later, another 50k regulation is introduced. The company will again be forced to abide by the regulation. They’re able to do this because they’ve been making a profit for a while, and have an established customer base. Even if one of these regulation makes them go in a red, they are likely to get back into the black anyways.


But let’s say you wanted to go into the same industry as this business. Guess what my friend, you don’t have the leisure of paying the cost of those regulations over a decade, you must pay them all at once. That is 150 thousand dollars, plus the cost of actually setting up whatever your business is. 150 thousand is just a number, because there is most likely hundreds or thousands of regulations depending on the industry. Some won’t cost so much, and some will cost more, but the point is that it’s an increased cost to starting a business which puts off a lot of people of even trying. And even if you did get everything covered and were starting to go, one regulation to your industry could put you out of business. Large companies can absorb regulations fairly easily, the same can’t be said for smaller companies."


It is a basic fact that competition between companies to undercut each other reduces prices of goods, but increasing the cost to make a business and maintain it reduces the amount of profit they have to tap into if they want to undercut their enemies. It gets to a point where companies can't sell it for any lower or else they'd be losing money (which some will do for short amounts of time to lure customers over). Regulations raise that drastically, meaning there is a higher minimum price for goods. A minimum price is almost impossible in a free-market society, since even the producers of capital goods will be competing, and even then a new technology could raise the prices again. Sure, Intel could mass produce Core II Duos and sell them for 10 dollars, but the thing is nobody wants them because there are bigger and better things. New designs are created every day for thousands of products, but people can't enter the market.

Another issue I have is copyright. They only really benefit larger businesses, contrary to the belief that larger companies would just steal them. Yes, companies would definitely take them and produce them on theirown, but it would be much harder for them to immediately produce them. You on the other hand, could start a business and produce them before the other companies even catch wind. And even then, you'll be selling them and hopefully making some money. Eventually companies will sell your design, but you'll have a window of time where you establish yourself as the creator of the product, and people will recognize your brand. Then you must compete with the larger company, which is fantastic for the consumer. Both companies (Not just a company vs an inventor at this point) would try and undercut one another. This is great for the consumer.
But with copyrights, when you try and make a business and you have to deal with rules upon rules and a huge capital investment, people are more likely to just sell their designs to big companies and get their money immediately. Then those companies will have free reign over that design, even if it's revolutionary and everyone could use. Drugs are a good example. If a pill was created to cure cancer, one company would have free reign over the production and price of it, meaning no competition for that drug, meaning they can set the price to whatever the fuck they want. That's not good. Hell, even games in a loading screen was under copyright by Namco for the longest time.
Even if you could produce a product that a big company made cheaper, you can't. Sorry pal, they legally own a fucking IDEA.
 
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That's the thing, if the government hadn't given out literal tens of billions of dollars to other banks to buy out the failing ones, the banks that were doing shitty things like this would've gone under.
Hmm..."the government" isn't really correct: it should be "governments": this happened so often that I honestly can't think of a single country that didn't had to buy out banks.

The "had to" is how these governments sold it to us. And not without reason, because even though I'm sure many politicans hated the actions they took, but had no option because ALL THE BANKS did it. If it was just one or two banks it could've been contained. The other banks could've been forced to take over the loans while getting the savings. But again: even if banks weren't active in manipulating people into bad loans, they at least had some bundles of bad loans under their belt "as if it was money". The bancrupcy of Lehman brothers turned out to be a tumbling domino stone. Allowing more banks to fall would cause more of those to fall over, up and until there was no bank left. Meaning: all savings of all the people in the world would've been evaporated (it sounds crazy, but I honestly feel that that is what most economists mean when they say that "a total breakdown of the economy" was barely averted).
 
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First point, An Indictment is a formal acusation that a person has committed a crime. It doesn’t mean the person is guilty of a crime.

Indictments are easy to get because there is no judge, attorney, or opposition.

This is more non sense of the Russians being involved conspiracy theories, just like the Russian bots conspiracy.

No proof that the Russian government was involved. No Americans knew about the troll operations. No proof that trolling affected the 2016 election. The indictments and investigations was a big waste of time.

The trolls used hashtags and bad memes. It’s a joke that people actually believe these trolls that can barely speak English and have little knowledge of American politics robbed the election.

There was anti Trump and pro Trump memes. For Hilary, against Hillary. Pro Muslim, Anti Muslim. For Guns, Anti Guns. There’s Woke Blacks, Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Don’t Matter. They were playing all sides.

Like really? These are the Facebook pages that over threw our Democracy in 2016?

And the ridiculousness was that Hillary Clinton blames her presidential loss on Russian bots and 13 Russian trolls. Somehow these trolls with bad memes were more effective at persuading the entire American nation then Hillary Clinton and her 1 billion campaign was. And to prove Russians did it CNN started dumpster diving into Russian trash. Are you guys comedians or something.

People believe in the craziest conspiracies. They'll just believe anything no matter how ridiculous as long as it’s against Trump. You guys are just comedy. Blame Russians, it’s all those Russian bots.
 
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Xzi

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First point, An Indictment is a formal acusation that a person has committed a crime. It doesn’t mean the person is guilty of a crime.
Doesn't negate all the guilty pleas and cooperation thus far from people close to Trump, does it?

No proof that the Russian government was involved.
Other than every American intelligence agency having plainly stated that, sure.

People believe in the craziest conspiracies.
This has already been one of the largest in scope and most successful independent federal investigations in the nation's history, and it's still ongoing. You don't get to cry "conspiracy" after Trump's personal lawyer and his ex-campaign manager have already plead guilty to multiple charges and are cooperating on further charges. There are a lot more facts to be revealed still, but what we know so far is damning. And that's just from Mueller's work, not counting all the various tax scandals uncovered elsewhere.
 
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