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Are your views consistent on the HK and BLM protests?
- Thread starter UltraDolphinRevolution
- Start date
- Views 3,077
- Replies 35
defund the police basically means taking a hard look at allll the different jobs expected of the police, and finding different people to handle those jobs instead. In the states, we expect the police to handle so many more different kinds of things that aren't really in their wheelhouse. Social workers, in particular, can take a lot off their hands. That's an obvious one. There may be some conversations about which jobs should best be taken over, which is where you'll see differences in different groups wanting different things. Could also come down to area and region. Important thing is these conversations are had with an eye towards removing anything from the police responsibilities that other folks are actually trained in doing, leaving only what only the cops can do. And in some places, that may mean no cops at all. that may mean few changes, though cops should still maybe not be given tanks and military grade equipment. That with only the core aspects of their jobs left, be given intense and continual training. Far more than the laughable 6 months they get now. Basically, efficiently fund them, but only for what only they can do, so they can do their jobs properly.
And that's just the funding cops aspect. Everything else has also been being talked about for literally generations. It is complex and has loads of facets. The prison pipeline is definitely one of the bigger ones. Things have been getting progressively worse since Reagan for PoC (people of colour). The 1994 Crime Bill really did a lot of harm, for instance.
I'll find some articles or whatnot for you to read tomorrow. I've got to do some homework at the moment. This is basically just my understanding, which seems congruent with everything i've heard and read.
Last edited by osaka35,
more like, if hospital workers get charged with murder for killing someone while trying to restrain them, then why shouldn't police? hospital workers have to deal with just as many cracked out crazy people as police do, but severely punished or expelled from the industry for doing anything close to what police can do. maybe we don't need to send lethally armed police to every little incident. social services, youth services, housing, education, healthcare and other community resources should be getting the lions share of funding that police get. as it is right now, we get scenarios like sending armed police to handle a fistfight at a school. also police should not have military gear, full stop.
Last edited by omgcat,
for my visio:
first Hong kong: they know and it's proven to be so not just by media, but also by VN and a lot of studies, if china gets it's way it's gonna be a direct reverse on freedom of movement, freedom of speech and freedom of religion. yes i know hong kong has been part of china in the past and should work with china, i agree. just the agreement is to wait 40 more years, and no restriction on said freedoms.
for Black lives Matter:
maybe there's something wrong with USA, i say maybe cause i doubt it really is as bad as BLM is trying to make it look like.
that there are racistic cops among cops doesn't tell me much, there are rasistic people all over the world, and so there will no matter what we do be incidents of violence.
an incident doesn't represent a system.
keep telling someone to be a sinner over years and most likely he'll proof you right just to get it over with, this applies to racism aswell.
if you don't give a person the chance to get to know you how can such a person ever proof to be a friend?
pushing me further, and i'm saying right now is a point of no return, in here we had peace and an inclusive society.. but ever since we started listen to BLM that gets thinner, it's walking on eggshells right now. i've gotta read minds before i talk to anyone. before i know there's a bomb going of just because i see the world different.
first Hong kong: they know and it's proven to be so not just by media, but also by VN and a lot of studies, if china gets it's way it's gonna be a direct reverse on freedom of movement, freedom of speech and freedom of religion. yes i know hong kong has been part of china in the past and should work with china, i agree. just the agreement is to wait 40 more years, and no restriction on said freedoms.
for Black lives Matter:
maybe there's something wrong with USA, i say maybe cause i doubt it really is as bad as BLM is trying to make it look like.
that there are racistic cops among cops doesn't tell me much, there are rasistic people all over the world, and so there will no matter what we do be incidents of violence.
an incident doesn't represent a system.
keep telling someone to be a sinner over years and most likely he'll proof you right just to get it over with, this applies to racism aswell.
if you don't give a person the chance to get to know you how can such a person ever proof to be a friend?
pushing me further, and i'm saying right now is a point of no return, in here we had peace and an inclusive society.. but ever since we started listen to BLM that gets thinner, it's walking on eggshells right now. i've gotta read minds before i talk to anyone. before i know there's a bomb going of just because i see the world different.
The doctors who kill aren't trained enough.
Police are highly-trained professionals. They need that money for their training. If you really think that therapists can stop a murderer, you are sorely mistaken.
What should happen to stop unnecessary police brutality is that they pay for their damages out of their own pockets.
US police are a bunch of low intelligence goons, that follow idiots, but it all works out because, they like to do what a leader tells them. And within an institutional framework, following a leader that follows a rulebook, more or less strictly, usually is enough. Or so many local sheriff departments seem to believe.
If you think this is hyperbole, watch Democracy Now for two weeks, and tell me how you faired.
edit: Link: https://www.democracynow.org/topics/police_brutality
In the US police training apparently consists of inviting Steven Segal and Shouty Mc Shout Moron
, to hold a training camp, and watching videos like these:
That rulebook has leniencies for police getting out of line, because it is expected to happen in practice, and you dont want a legal case on you, after every action you took. But this obviously has lead to police cultures, that are just immensely out of whack, where covering each others behavior is really most of what it consists of.
Police officers are highly trained in exactly nothing apart from some martial art mambo jumbo, that usually doesnt pass the sniff test for BS. For every action that requires thinking, or extensive anything, they call in specialists, and it is good that they do.
While none of this is true in any sense of generalizable reality, it should be closer to the truth than, police are highly trained professionals.
If you think this is hyperbole, watch Democracy Now for two weeks, and tell me how you faired.
edit: Link: https://www.democracynow.org/topics/police_brutality
In the US police training apparently consists of inviting Steven Segal and Shouty Mc Shout Moron
, to hold a training camp, and watching videos like these:
That rulebook has leniencies for police getting out of line, because it is expected to happen in practice, and you dont want a legal case on you, after every action you took. But this obviously has lead to police cultures, that are just immensely out of whack, where covering each others behavior is really most of what it consists of.
Police officers are highly trained in exactly nothing apart from some martial art mambo jumbo, that usually doesnt pass the sniff test for BS. For every action that requires thinking, or extensive anything, they call in specialists, and it is good that they do.
While none of this is true in any sense of generalizable reality, it should be closer to the truth than, police are highly trained professionals.
Last edited by notimp,
They were protests that evolved in to riots. Intentionally. Protesters don't break,steal and set on fire. Get a grip. Stop giving thugs a pass because they are pissed off. It doesn't matter what happens, you are responsible for your actions. "I was so mad I bunt down a town and stole a new living room set" Bullshit. Thieves and looters. Stupid and selfish. Hiding behind the guise of protest and a stupid acronym. All them looting turds deserve the tear gas and batons. From BLM to ACAB I say STFU is the only acronym I stand behind. Especially in America. YOU ARE NOT OPPRESSED, JUST STUPID.
You classify everything as riots, thats anti government.
Then you tuck tight and sleep well. Because society finally is great.
Might it be more complicated than that?
Have you looked into the issues behind both protest that go beyond 'people want to riot?'.
-
Because:
1. If people 'just want to riot', they could do that after a football game.
2. Riots breaking out (small scale) is actually a rather expected (dare I say natural) result of big mass protests. (Clashing with forces that try to constrain them (i.e. police). Because the natural reaction of masses in that case is not 'well, then I think we should do down that street anymore - oh well... Next time then...' Thats already the high level 'socially accepted behavior' reaction.)
3. Riots are used by governments to delegitimize mass protests.
(See f.e.
- Retraction of the "riot" characterisation: The government originally characterised the 12 June protest as "riots", it later amended the description to say there were "some" rioters, an assertion protesters still contest. The crime of "rioting" carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.
4. Riots are actively provoked by governments to be able to do so.
At the same time, there might be some psychological tactics in play to calm down masses - f.e. when you see locked away bricks turning up in the middle of the street as ammunition depots. (Reminding people, that not rioting is necessary for sustained social acceptance.)
Second ones are _not_ locked away... Make of that what you will.
So - the idea, that protests are either 'legitimate protests' or 'riots' is false. The riot issue, in general, is overplayed in both of the protests named.
Which makes what you do - adding to an extremist position of 'hate all protests' as soon as there is an element of violence to be seen. Which is an excellent way to squander legitimate protests.
The 'corrective' (whats ok, and whats not) is actually pubic opinion. And you are working on a 'as soon as they get violent, 'beat them into submission'' position in public opinion. Which doesnt work in reality.
Also, you ideally have to differentiate between violence against f.e. storefronts/cars, and violence against people. Which you dont do.
But to your point 'symbols' of rioting, can be used to draw out more people in the beginning of a mass protest, the 'in the beginning' part is important. Once you reached a certain mass, the mass itself becomes the draw for people (it feels good to experience that), and 'burning cars' arent needed anymore. Roughly.
Havent read those theory books (some of them scientific literature from the 1960 btw. (social sciences)), but picked up parts over the years.
Last edited by notimp,
There are good and bad protests (personal perspective). But riots are always wrong. The irony in HK was that the rioters demanded not to be called rioters (while damaging stores etc) a la "don´t call me a terrorist, or I´ll kill you"
I don´t distinguish between violence against property and people because the former leads to the latter.
I don´t distinguish between violence against property and people because the former leads to the latter.
Last edited by UltraDolphinRevolution,
You classify everything as riots, thats anti government.
Then you tuck tight and sleep well. Because society finally is great.
Might it be more complicated than that?
Have you looked into the issues behind both protest that go beyond 'people want to riot?'.
-
Because:
1. If people 'just want to riot', they could do that after a football game.
2. Riots breaking out (small scale) is actually a rather expected (dare I say natural) result of big mass protests. (Clashing with forces that try to constrain them (i.e. police). Because the natural reaction of masses in that case is not 'well, then I think we should do down that street anymore - oh well... Next time then...' Thats already the high level 'socially accepted behavior' reaction.)
3. Riots are used by governments to delegitimize mass protests.
(See f.e.
src: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_Hong_Kong_protests )
- Retraction of the "riot" characterisation: The government originally characterised the 12 June protest as "riots", it later amended the description to say there were "some" rioters, an assertion protesters still contest. The crime of "rioting" carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.
4. Riots are actively provoked by governments to be able to do so.
At the same time, there might be some psychological tactics in play to calm down masses - f.e. when you see locked away bricks turning up in the middle of the street as ammunition depots. (Reminding people, that not rioting is necessary for sustained social acceptance.)
Second ones are _not_ locked away... Make of that what you will.
So - the idea, that protests are either 'legitimate protests' or 'riots' is false. The riot issue, in general, is overplayed in both of the protests named.
Which makes what you do - adding to an extremist position of 'hate all protests' as soon as there is an element of violence to be seen. Which is an excellent way to squander legitimate protests.
The 'corrective' (whats ok, and whats not) is actually pubic opinion. And you are working on a 'as soon as they get violent, 'beat them into submission'' position in public opinion. Which doesnt work in reality.
Also, you ideally have to differentiate between violence against f.e. storefronts/cars, and violence against people. Which you dont do.
But to your point 'symbols' of rioting, can be used to draw out more people in the beginning of a mass protest, the 'in the beginning' part is important. Once you reached a certain mass, the mass itself becomes the draw for people (it feels good to experience that), and 'burning cars' arent needed anymore. Roughly.
Havent read those theory books (some of them scientific literature from the 1960 btw. (social sciences)), but picked up parts over the years.
What? No dude.. You legitimize this bullshit. Come on Son! You are 100% responsible for your own actions. 100%.. No matter what happens, Protest are not vandalism, assault and theft! Those are not simply bi products of real protest. Those are crimes. And it's a bi-product of idiots. 100%. Morons. Lighting a structure on fire, breaking someone else's property, assault, Theft. All piece of shit moves. Any decent mind knows this. You never have an excuse. Unless it's for survival.You cant eat a burnt down grocery store. WTF? They do this shit for any reason they can mobilize enough retards. The Raiders lose the Superbowl they set Oakland on fire. OAKLAND. Not Tampa... OAKLAND! You beat my team so I set MY OWN HOUSE ON FIRE. George Floyd Vandal BLM terrorist moron assholes burnt down many important businesses for their own community. Go to the rich neighborhood and burn THAT down, dummies. WTF. And you are not a protester when you break in to Walmart and steal a TV. You are a fucking thief. So fucking stupid and selfish.
The left is made up of entitled brats.
To think you cannot destory public property: normal / humble.
To think you can destroy public property because you are part of the public: privileged / entitled.
To think you can destroy other people´s private property: super privileged / entitled.
Put people who think otherwise in power and it only takes a few generations to turn a country into a failed state.
Last edited by UltraDolphinRevolution,
For the second time, they are morons in uniforms, with a license to beat up people, or bully them around (if needed), that if in doubt shoot at anything that moves in a 10 feet radius in front of them, because they are trained, that an attacker with a knife could kill them faster, than they can draw a gun from that distance. Probably.
They arent very well educated at all. They refer to the 'collective' for anything that requires brain cells. They follow protocol, and the book. And a code. And none of those are attributes of 'well educated people'.Highly trained and 'professional' they might be. But if I'd risk my life for not that much pay - and had power in numbers, I'd probably shoot and ask questions later as well. Might not be part of the training - but hey. Cut me a break.
We love them regardless though, for the service they are providing and that they put their lives on the line, for not that much pay (also not an indication of a highly qualified person).
Doctors arent qualified enough, but policemen are - is just another way of saying 'I'm with stupid'.
Sorry - I'm with 'not that well educated'. But I like weapons, because to me they represent all the power I'll ever get in my life.Btw - if this is a discussion about 'defunding police' thats over and not happening.
In case you havent heard, Trump gained a higher votes percentage in all demographics except white less educated voters - over the last election results against Hillary.
This is not 'black live matters' reigned supreme. This is 'they did their thing - and nobody cared'.
src: https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-support-demographics-white-men-exit-poll-1545144
Last edited by notimp,
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