Can someone explain to me the importance of Pride parades.

Heichart · Jul 8, 2019

mikefor20 said:
Saying leave me alone isn't selfish. That's a true right. Saying watch what I do and applaud me me even though you don't care to see it in the first place is selfish. Get used to it. That's a phrase that gets yelled at people constantly when they are being forced to do something they don't want to do. You know they used to tell the gay guys to get used to having sex with women. Just saying

You want people to let you alone while not letting people alone. You are the one doing what you don't want others to do.

mikefor20 · Jul 8, 2019

Lacius said:
Support for the LGBT community has increased dramatically since the LGBT rights movement and Pride, and support for the LGBT community is higher than it has ever been. For example, as of 2018, 68% of Americans support same-sex marriage. In 2008, that number was 39%.

That statement literally has the word "me" in it, and the statement is literally about making things only about you. I can't think of a more selfish statement. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to want to be left alone, but it's selfish.

Nobody wants this.

People are gay and are going to express it. They have every right. Get used to it.

If you can't deal with the fact that expressive gay people exist, that's your problem. You can either get used to it or obsessively stress out about it.

This is one of the many reasons why Pride exists.

It's closer to 1/20.

They should have 1/20 representation if everything is equal and discrimination isn't occurring.
Having media representation is part of Pride. Like coming out, the visibility of gay people in media contributes to the gay rights movement. It also helps LGBT youth feel less isolated.

You can check my previous posts on the subject for the meaning of Pride. It's a counterprotest to LGBT discrimination, violence, and existence-denial. These are pretty important.

I agree that the commercialism of Pride is a real concern, but that doesn't invalidate the need for Pride.

LGBT rights still have a long way to go.

Complacency inevitably leads to a rollback of rights.

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No, it really dowan't.

Nobody asked you to go to Pride. You seem to be ignoring this each time I say it to you.

Before I take offense, what am I allegedly a caricature of?

If your intent is to get this thread locked, keep calling people names. Given my responses to your posts, I can understand why you might want this thread to get locked though.

You're the one obsessing over other people's sexualities and whether or not they can express their sexual identities.

Anti-LGBT discrimination happens all the time. Anti-LGBT violence and murder happens all the time. It is legal to be fired for being gay in many states. People actively want to rollback other gay rights, such as same-sex marriage. And, of course, people like you want to stuff people back into the closet and don't think they should be able to express their sexual identities in public.

That's prejudice, which is one of the reasons why Pride exists.

That's a denial of gay identity, and it's one of the reasons why Pride exists.

So, you never feel inclined to talk about your romantic partners with others? From the point of view of everyone around you, you're a sexless being?

You also do understand that we are talking about the LGBT community at large. Gender identity, for example, is something you flaunt every day.

If you're selectively deciding that LGBT people don't deserve empathy, then that's homophobic prejudice.

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I meant to state this as some point but forgot to. Anyone complaining about Pride should advocate for LGBT rights and vote for pro-LGBT policies and politicians. Doing anything else perpetuates the need for Pride.

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I'm also arguing that they're comparable.
Are you going to articulate whether or not they're good things, or was your post meant to lack substance?

You should do podcasts. Lol hilarious how you read something and rearrange it in your head ever so subtly so you can make it fit your purpose LOL. There's so many things wrong with what you just posted. When you pull sentences out of context like that you change the meaning. Clever girl. I still stand by my previous statement. I have a right to be left alone just as much as anybody. If I'm sitting there minding my own business and you come in here chanting and hooting and hollering and bothering the hell out of me it's your fault not mine. Go away. We don't need Crusades all the time. This world is all messed up you guys need to figure out something else to fight for. Especially around here. You are not in any way shape or form oppressed anymore. Not any more than anyone else who isn't perfect. And nobody's perfect. I do not feel sorry for you. I do not think you're courageous. I just think you're a person. The reason in the previous post where that guy said he didn't even consider the sexuality isn't because he assumed someone is straight, it's because he doesn't care. Which is why I don't want to hear about it either. Or watch you wave a rubber dick while you prance around in leather chaps. that's not homophobic, I just don't care. I don't care about your movement. I don't care about your feelings. Everybody's become such whiny babies lately. PC social justice Warriors are ruining Society. people need to leave everybody else alone shut the hell up and get a life. I don't care what makes you happy. That doesn't make me an asshole or a homophobe it just I don't care. get a grip! You are not special. I don't care what mr. Rogers told you. And I didn't go to Pride by the way. I know better. But I do have to commute on the bart trains. I do have to deal with it. Because I live in the area. Get a grip

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Heichart said:
You want people to let you alone while not letting people alone. You are the one doing what you don't want others to do.

This Thread asked the question what the parades are for. I answered it. That's how this started. I didn't ask the question.

Lacius · Jul 8, 2019

deinonychus71 said:
In western countries (well, the US as it's where most of the social battles are fought first) if we're at the point where people are just complaining cause they can't play a gay character in smash bros (yes yes resetera), I'd say we're in a pretty good place.

That would be a pretty good place, but that's not where LGBT rights are at. See my post above about where it's at.

deinonychus71 said:
but there is no systemic homophobia anymore, which is what matters.

Systemic homophobia isn't just present; it's rampant. See my post above.

deinonychus71 said:
Look at this thread, there's at least 2 gay people telling you they're against it (me included).
And here's the reason: I don't believe this kind of event do anything to help reduce homophobia or transphobia. If anything, it reaffirms differences. Someone who was against it is not going to be swayed by it. The problem with xxxxphobia does not get resolved by shoving more of it down people throats, especially when -some people- in these parades are doing everything they can to encourage stereotypes.

LGBT visibility leads to an increase in support and empathy. LGBT supports, as well as LGBT rights, have skyrocketed since Pride. The things you're saying now were some of the same things that were said when people were skeptical of Pride in the first place.

Oh, and it also serves as a counterprotest to those who thing LGBT people should only be LGBT in private.

Retroboy said:
to be fair i dont see the point in them, you cant change a persons view on something and i think things like this only provokes them.

It does change minds. If it weren't for the change in support from straight people who were originally against LGBT rights, there wouldn't be LGBT rights.
It's a counterprotest to those who deny LGBT identity.

Retroboy said:
its sad that we live in a world like this where others cant simply live how they like as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.

That's why Pride is needed.

Retroboy said:
i get equality and all that, but it seems we live in a world where equality isnt as equal as it seems, for example if we did a day dedicated to straight people, the lgbt would be kicking off finding it offensive.

That's because straight pride events are homophobic counter protests to LGBT Pride. In addition, straight people aren't an oppressed minority, which makes straight pride events purposeless.

Retroboy said:
if we did the opposite of mobo awards, the black community would find it offensive.

White people are not an oppressed minority, and it would be a counterprotest to black musicians.

Retroboy said:
i think everyone should be entitled to equality but we shouldnt have to dedicate a day/event to its cause.

Without LGBT visibility and Pride, rights are rolled back, and people become less empathetic.

osm70 · Jul 8, 2019

Lacius said:
Support for the LGBT community has increased dramatically since the LGBT rights movement and Pride, and support for the LGBT community is higher than it has ever been. For example, as of 2018, 68% of Americans support same-sex marriage. In 2008, that number was 39%. [1]

LGBT rights still have a long way to go. [2]

Anti-LGBT discrimination happens all the time. Anti-LGBT violence and murder happens all the time. It is legal to be fired for being gay in many states. People actively want to rollback other gay rights, such as same-sex marriage. And, of course, people like you want to stuff people back into the closet and don't think they should be able to express their sexual identities in public. [3]

I'm also arguing that they're comparable.
Are you going to articulate whether or not they're good things, or was your post meant to lack substance? [4]

1. 80% in the Czech Republic... as of 2013.

2. What do you mean? What is the problem?

3. Oh, here it is. The answer to number two. In the Czech Republic, being fired for being gay is illegal, no one is trying to take LGBT rights away, violence and murder don't seem to target LGBT specifically... etc, etc.

4. Yeah, well... I forgot what we were talking about.

So, there you have it. The situation in my country. With it being the way it is, we don't understand the point of Pride. If you ask the typical average Czech person what are the parades for, they will most likely say "A cry for attention - look at me, I am special!". And if you try to say it's to stop homophobia, they will go like "but that doesn't actually happen".

Sono · Jul 8, 2019

Lacius said:
-snip-

(I'm sick of refreshing the browser page just so I can quote the latest edit, so be happy with a snip)

I think the reason you're being called a caricature and a moron is because you seem to be repeating the same things, without thinking about what the other has said.

Try thinking critically, and try processing what the other person has said before replying with the same copypaste answers.

Also, the "dowan't" response from you is low-key childish. If you want to be taken in just the slightest bit seriously, avoid these kind of repsonses.

In my opinion these parades have slightly gotten out of hand. This should be a parade for people being proud of themselves for who they are, not a circus.

Also, we don't choose to go to a parade, and we don't tell the people on the parade to block the train tracks so we miss our connections, despite arriving hours earlier to prevent missing a connection.

Here where I live there was a parade, but I could only hear complaints about it. Not because they are homophobe and transphobe (I mean, they are, but they didn't bring up ANY points which were homophobic or transphobic), but because they hindered public transport.

The result? The parade had a backlash, and ended up having the opposite effect, upsetting everyone, and hating "the gays" even more.

At least protesters remain in one place, and don't always block public transport. And even if they do, not for more than ten minutes.

In my opinion, if you really want to do something, do it in a way so that people take you seriously. Don't dress like a clown. You can have parades in casual clothing, and that way you don't scare off little children. Moderation. Too much stuff can be harmful, even if it's a good thing.

AmandaRose · Jul 8, 2019

deinonychus71 said:
Dear Anakin,
For all the "If you're not with me then you're against me" people out there

It's not necessarily about whether we are "in favor of LGBT" or not, but how it's being done. You can agree with the general intent while disagreeing with the method. That's what -a lot- of people on the thread have been saying. That does NOT make them homophobic or transphobic.
And by the way, you can replace "homophobic" by pretty much any social modern issue and it still works, criticize one manifestation of feminism and you're automatically anti-feminist, etc.

Look at this thread, there's at least 2 gay people telling you they're against it (me included).
And here's the reason: I don't believe this kind of event do anything to help reduce homophobia or transphobia. If anything, it reaffirms differences. Someone who was against it is not going to be swayed by it. The problem with xxxxphobia does not get resolved by shoving more of it down people throats, especially when -some people- in these parades are doing everything they can to encourage stereotypes.

I do not want to be more visible, I just want to be normal. And I've had no problem being normal in my entire life as I don't get over the top and don't over publicize my sexuality, which I think is fair.
Funnily enough, the only time I'm reminded of my sexuality is when colleagues ask me "were you at the parade this weekend?".

In western countries (well, the US as it's where most of the social battles are fought first) if we're at the point where people are just complaining cause they can't play a gay character in smash bros (yes yes resetera), I'd say we're in a pretty good place. Someone openly against gay people today is just being trashed publicly. Again, I'm well aware that hate crime is a thing, it's a thing and will always be a thing as it "naturally" come with differences, but there is no systemic homophobia anymore, which is what matters.

To conclude, a pride celebrating the "living together", "differences" or simply "love" or whatever would sound a lot better to me. It would remind us that social battles are about bringing people around what we have in common instead of pointing out differences.

Nowhere did I say anyone posting here is homophobic or transohobic what I said is we should all work together to end homophobia and transphobia.

You also say that in America there is no more systemic homophobia yet fail to meantion that America is hugely transphobic.

You also state

To conclude, a pride celebrating the "living together", "differences" or simply "love" or whatever would sound a lot better to me

Ok I suggest you come to Glasgow during pride. Our pride event is made up of 50% lgbt and 50% straight people celebrating life in general. Don't judge all pride events by what you see in your own country they are not all like that.

mikefor20 · Jul 8, 2019

Sono said:
(I'm sick of refreshing the browser page just so I can quote the latest edit, so be happy with a snip)

I think the reason you're being called a caricature and a moron is because you seem to be repeating the same things, without thinking about what the other has said.

Try thinking critically, and try processing what the other person has said before replying with the same copypaste answers.

Also, the "dowan't" response from you is low-key childish. If you want to be taken in just the slightest bit seriously, avoid these kind of repsonses.

In my opinion these parades have slightly gotten out of hand. This should be a parade for people being proud of themselves for who they are, not a circus.

Also, we don't choose to go to a parade, and we don't tell the people on the parade to block the train tracks so we miss our connections, despite arriving hours earlier to prevent missing a connection.

Here where I live there was a parade, but I could only hear complaints about it. Not because they are homophobe and transphobe (I mean, they are, but they didn't bring up ANY points which were homophobic or transphobic), but because they hindered public transport.

The result? The parade had a backlash, and ended up having the opposite effect, upsetting everyone, and hating "the gays" even more.

At least protesters remain in one place, and don't always block public transport. And even if they do, not for more than ten minutes.

In my opinion, if you really want to do something, do it in a way so that people take you seriously. Don't dress like a clown. You can have parades in casual clothing, and that way you don't scare off little children. Moderation. Too much stuff can be harmful, even if it's a good thing.

Right, intentionally pushing people and making them uncomfortable doesn't make you right it just makes you a fake bully caricature without any real substance.

Lacius · Jul 8, 2019

mikefor20 said:
You should do podcasts. Lol hilarious how you read something and rearrange it in your head ever so subtly so you can make it fit your purpose LOL. There's so many things wrong with what you just posted. When you pull sentences out of context like that you change the meaning. Clever girl.

If you're going to say I pulled sentences out of context, put up or shut up.

mikefor20 said:
I have a right to be left alone just as much as anybody. If I'm sitting there minding my own business and you come in here chanting and hooting and hollering and bothering the hell out of me it's your fault not mine. Go away. We don't need Crusades all the time.

For the nth time, nobody is forcing you to attend Pride.
Nobody is bursting into your house and making you watch Pride. Nothing about Pride conflicts with your right to privacy or your "right to be left alone."

mikefor20 said:
This world is all messed up you guys need to figure out something else to fight for. Especially around here. You are not in any way shape or form oppressed anymore. Not any more than anyone else who isn't perfect. And nobody's perfect.

If you actually read my posts, you would see that LGBT rights have a long way to go. There's anti-LGBT discrimination, anti-LGBT violence, people like you who are anti-LGBT expression, and large groups wanting to roll back the LGBT rights that currently exist.

It's also possible to advocate for multiple things. A person who is supportive of LGBT rights isn't exclusively supportive of LGBT rights.

mikefor20 said:
I do not feel sorry for [LGBT people].

There's that lack of empathy.

mikefor20 said:
I do not think you're courageous.

There it is again.

mikefor20 said:
Which is why I don't want to hear about it either. Or watch you wave a rubber dick while you prance around in leather chaps.

Then don't. It doesn't mean Pride should be canceled.

mikefor20 said:
I don't care about your movement.

Not caring about LGBT rights is:

Homophobic
Unempathetic

mikefor20 said:
I don't care about your feelings.

That is literally, and by definition, unempathetic.
It's also hypocritical. If you don't care about others' feelings, why are you posting about your hurt feelings here for us to read?

mikefor20 said:
Everybody's become such whiny babies lately.

You're the one whining about how a Pride event that barely affects you causes you anxiety.

mikefor20 said:
PC social justice Warriors are ruining Society.

Social justice makes for a better society for everyone. To live in a society that is unjust for some is to live in a society that is unjust for all, since the line between you and the oppressed is arbitrary.

mikefor20 said:
people need to leave everybody else alone shut the hell up and get a life.

Pride is about, metaphorically, "being left alone." So, you start.

mikefor20 said:
I don't care what makes you happy. That doesn't make me an asshole or a homophobe it just I don't care.

Not caring about others' happiness arguably does make you a bitter asshole. Not caring about the plights of the LGBT community also makes you a homophobe. You can see one of my earliest responses to you on what about your comments are homophobic and sexist. It was a good dissection of your commentary, if I say so myself. I was pretty proud of it. Get it? Pride?

mikefor20 said:
You are not special.

Everybody is special, and everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. If nothing else, that's what Pride is about.

mikefor20 said:
I don't care what mr. Rogers told you.

You're the antithesis of Mr. Rogers.
"Bah humbug. Don't be my neighbor. I don't care about any of you. Stop having fun. Stop fighting for the rights I already have."

mikefor20 said:
And I didn't go to Pride by the way. I know better. But I do have to commute on the bart trains. I do have to deal with it. Because I live in the area. Get a grip

If you didn't go to Pride, then it barely affects you. As for what you see in public spaces, you don't have much control over that, and you're complaining about a larger issue that doesn't apply only to Pride. Also, as I've said before, if you aren't willing to suffer through the minor inconvenience that is Price for the sake of LGBT rights, that's a problem.

mikefor20 said:
This Thread asked the question what the parades are for. I answered it. That's how this started. I didn't ask the question.

That doesn't mean you're not whining about it.

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osm70 said:
2. What do you mean? What is the problem?

Why did you ask me a question only to acknowledge I answered it in the next part of your post?

osm70 said:
3. Oh, here it is. The answer to number two. In the Czech Republic, being fired for being gay is illegal, no one is trying to take LGBT rights away, violence and murder don't seem to target LGBT specifically... etc, etc.

I'm talking about the United States and the Earth broadly. I don't know a lot about gay rights in your country, but if I assume it's 100% perfect (I doubt it), that doesn't address the global issues. Pride is still relevant.

osm70 said:
4. Yeah, well... I forgot what we were talking about.

It's too bad there isn't an easily accessible written record.

Lacius · Jul 8, 2019

Sono said:
(I'm sick of refreshing the browser page just so I can quote the latest edit, so be happy with a snip)

I have made almost no edits in this thread. Responses are being merged.

Sono said:
I think the reason you're being called a caricature and a moron is because you seem to be repeating the same things, without thinking about what the other has said.

That doesn't explain what I'm allegedly a caricature of.
I'm providing what I would consider to be thoughtful and succinct responses to individual points, as you can plainly see from the space my posts are taking up despite the relatively low word counts. The giant blocks of text I'm responding to often repeat their points without addressing mine, hence why I'm feeling a bit repetitive. In other words, some people are hitting "reply" to my post and then typing what they want to say without addressing much of my post.
Aside from arguably wasting my time, I'm not sure what's moronic about anything I've posted.

Sono said:
Try thinking critically, and try processing what the other person has said before replying with the same copypaste answers.

As I said above, I've been responding to most posts point by point. I have intended for my reponses to be thoughtful and direct.

Sono said:
Also, the "dowan't" response from you is low-key childish. If you want to be taken in just the slightest bit seriously, avoid these kind of repsonses.

Respectfully, I'm not very impressed by pearl-clutching. I'm allowed to have fun, and I wasn't using the typo to suggest any of his points were wrong.

Sono said:
In my opinion these parades have slightly gotten out of hand. This should be a parade for people being proud of themselves for who they are, not a circus.

I don't see why it can't be both.

Sono said:
Also, we don't choose to go to a parade, and we don't tell the people on the parade to block the train tracks so we miss our connections, despite arriving hours earlier to prevent missing a connection.

If that's not a minor inconvenience you're willing to suffer for the sake of the LGBT rights movement, that's potentially problematic. LGBT Pride also isn't the only event with these kinds of inconveniences. Which ones should also be done away with?

Sono said:
Here where I live there was a parade, but I could only hear complaints about it. Not because they are homophobe and transphobe (I mean, they are, but they didn't bring up ANY points which were homophobic or transphobic), but because they hindered public transport.

If these people are admittedly homophobic and transphobic, then I'm not sure you're in a position to assign inward motive to their outward complaints.

Sono said:
The result? The parade had a backlash, and ended up having the opposite effect, upsetting everyone, and hating "the gays" even more.

Support for Pride is largely positive, with support for the LGBT community consistently growing. And, as I and someone else said earlier, the quickest way to get rid of Pride is to do away with the need for Pride. If you don't like the inconvenience it brings, become an LGBT ally and vote for pro-LGBT politicians and policies.

Here in the US, there were protests awhile back from the Black Lives Movement. People were complaining about the traffic, etc., but that was an intended consequence of the protest. It gets people to pay attention to the plights of the black community, it makes people realize that the solution is to address issues of systemic racism, and comparing the plight of the black community to the minor traffic inconvenience put things into perspective.

I'm sympathetic to the inconvenience. I hate traffic, and I don't know anyone who likes it. Compared to the issues facing the LGBT community, however, I'm less than concerned about the traffic, etc. It's also arbitrary to complain about traffic specific to Pride but not other events.

Sono said:
At least protesters remain in one place, and don't always block public transport. And even if they do, not for more than ten minutes.

See above about the Black Lives Matter protests. You'd be surprised. Historically, disruption is often the goal with protests. That's not the case with Pride.

Sono said:
In my opinion, if you really want to do something, do it in a way so that people take you seriously.

What the LGBT community is doing now is apparently working.

Sono said:
Don't dress like a clown.

People largely don't dress like clowns, so I'm not sure why we are focusing on a minority of parade goers. There's also nothing wrong with wearing a costume during Pride. Pride goers generally like to see that.

Sono said:
You can have parades in casual clothing, and that way you don't scare off little children.

That takes a lot of the fun out of it.
You're metaphorical putting LGBT people back into the closet but hindering identity expression.
I don't think I've ever seen scared children at Pride, aside from the generically fussy baby.

Sono said:
Moderation. Too much stuff can be harmful, even if it's a good thing.

The point of identity expression is to go as big or as small as you want to.

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mikefor20 said:
Right, intentionally pushing people and making them uncomfortable doesn't make you right it just makes you a fake bully caricature without any real substance.

Poking fun at a single typo isn't bullying. Learn what bullying is.

deinonychus71 · Jul 8, 2019

@Lacius, your posts are all split up and it makes it a little hard to figure out what you were referring to, however I think there's a middleground between "do it in the closet" and pride scale celebration.

For example, I don't think most people have an issue with a gay couple holding hands in public, I think they would have a problem with gay people kissing for five minutes though.
But to be honest, people also tend to have issues with straight people kissing audibly for five minutes straight (ok maybe they don't point it out as much?). It's common decency at this point.

Now, if you happen to see someone bitching about a couple holding hands, please call them out loudly, and we'll see how people react around you.
That is what matters, it's whether the general population accepted an idea as "normal", and maybe I'm naive? But I think they did.

Now for the "utility" aspect of Pride, it seems that there's a correlation versus causation issue with your statement here. I may as well say that the Internet played a huge part as well (I'm also pretty sure it had a much bigger impact than Pride), we can't know for sure.
However what I know is that a truly homophobic/transphobic person will not change their mind because of Pride, but it will reinforce their wrong assumptions about them because of some of the people going to the Pride and being over the top.

Lacius said:
White people are not an oppressed minority, and it would be a counterprotest to black musicians.

Getting a little off topic here, but to me the anti-"middle-age straight white male" is becoming more than a meme. I know it's mainly being used to make a point, but it's built on the exact same fallacies and stereotypes that lead to xxxxphobias/xxxxxism. And more importantly, it has 0% to do with inclusion and 100% to do with payback or revenge. Pretty funny how it works, the bullied becoming the bullies.
So if that keeps going on, you could very well see in the coming months/year a pride to fight these new stereotypes.

AmandaRose said:
You also say that in America there is no more systemic homophobia yet fail to meantion that America is hugely transphobic.

I didn't fail to mention it, but if you want to get to this specific topic, I think the larger problem isn't that America is more transphobic, but 'some people' (I will not name them) want to bring new social changes but have no intention of creating an environment that is debate-friendly.
And so again, when you try to shove new things down people throats without even bothering to explain your point of view to them (or listen to theirs) it doesn't go well.
For example, when Fox News' Tucker (whom I don't really like for his impressive track record for fallacies) jokingly say "oh apparently now there are x genders, so that's a thing", I think he has a point. Who decide that these should be officially recognized? When was there a debate around it? How can some people be so sure they have the high ground (Anakin... ok I'll stop) that there doesn't need to be a debate?

AmandaRose said:
Ok I suggest you come to Glasgow during pride. Our pride event is made up of 50% lgbt and 50% straight people celebrating life in general. Don't judge all pride events by what you see in your own country they are not all like that.

The USA is not my country, I only live there

I'm from France.
But that's not really the point I was making. For someone who already wants to look as "pro-LGBT" as possible, sure they will join. The problem is how to convince / turn the opinion around for people who are against it?

osm70 · Jul 8, 2019

Lacius said:
I have made almost no edits in this thread. Responses are being merged.
If that's not a minor inconvenience you're willing to suffer for the sake of the LGBT rights movement, that's potentially problematic. [1]

LGBT Pride also isn't the only event with these kinds of inconveniences. Which ones should also be done away with? [2]

It's also arbitrary to complain about traffic specific to Pride but not other events. [3]

1. No, it's not something I want to suffer for any sake. I am a university student. If I have an exam and I don't arrive on time, I auto fail, even if I am late by just 2 minutes. (And no, no one cares why I am late. Sick? - Fail, Train didn't come? - Fail, Stopped by the police for questioning? - Fail, etc) That's not a minor inconvenience, that's 3 years of my life down the drain. If that happened to me, I would be pissed off at those who blocked the traffic.

2. All of them

3. Agreed

Lacius · Jul 8, 2019

deinonychus71 said:
@Lacius, your posts are all split up and it makes it a little hard to figure out what you were referring to

My responses immediately follow the quoted text above.

deinonychus71 said:
For example, I don't think most people have an issue with a gay couple holding hands in public, I think they would have a problem with gay people kissing for five minutes though.
But to be honest, people also tend to have issues with straight people kissing audibly for five minutes straight (ok maybe they don't point it out as much?). It's common decency at this point.

LGBT PDA and straight PDA is a big issue as well, and it's another reason for Pride. For example, while they arguably shouldn't be doing it, couples discovered to be having sex in a semi-public place are far more likely to be arrested if they're LGBT.

deinonychus71 said:
That is what matters, it's whether the general population accepted an idea as "normal", and maybe I'm naive? But I think they did.

Pride is largely about normalizing the existence of LGBT people.

deinonychus71 said:
Now for the "utility" aspect of Pride, it seems that there's a correlation versus causation issue with your statement here. I may as well say that the Internet played a huge part as well (I'm also pretty sure it had a much bigger impact than Pride), we can't know for sure.
However what I know is that a truly homophobic/transphobic person will not change their mind because of Pride, but it will reinforce their wrong assumptions about them because of some of the people going to the Pride and being over the top.

You're right. A lot of factors went into the increasing acceptance of LGBT people and LGBT rights. However, arguably the biggest was people coming out. Before the coming out movement, the LGBT community was as invisible as they were vilified. Once people's kids, neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc. started coming out, the mental image of depraved monsters in the sewers that nobody had ever seen before began to go away.

It's also worth noting the Pride is specifically for the LGBT community and LGBT allies, and it's their space to do as they wish. That's why the costumes, for example, are largely popular; the people at Pride are mostly the people already supportive of Pride. There's not much of an incentive to tone it down when the people who want it toned down are the people who are never going to attend in the first place.

deinonychus71 said:
Getting a little off topic here, but to me the anti-"middle-age straight white male" is becoming more than a meme. I know it's mainly being used to make a point, but it's built on the exact same fallacies and stereotypes that lead to xxxxphobias/xxxxxism. And more importantly, it has 0% to do with inclusion and 100% to do with payback or revenge. Pretty funny how it works, the bullied becoming the bullies.
So if that keeps going on, you could very well see in the coming months/year a pride to fight these new stereotypes.

White people aren't systemically oppressed. Men aren't systemically oppressed. They never will be.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

osm70 said:
1. No, it's not something I want to suffer for any sake. I am a university student. If I have an exam and I don't arrive on time, I auto fail, even if I am late by just 2 minutes. (And no, no one cares why I am late. Sick? - Fail, Train didn't come? - Fail, Stopped by the police for questioning? - Fail, etc) That's not a minor inconvenience, that's 3 years of my life down the drain. If that happened to me, I would be pissed off at those who blocked the traffic.

I have a lot of points in a previous post about how, although I'm sympathetic to traffic frustrations and the like, I'm not very concerned about these issues in comparison to the issues facing the LGBT community. In other words, I think the benefits of Pride far outweigh the minor logistical inconveniences.

Also, if you're late for an exam, it's not the fault of the LGBT community. In this specific example, Pride is scheduled far in advance, and you can work around it. Regardless, you should plan to arrive hours in advance if you literally cannot afford to be late.

osm70 said:
2. All of them

3. Agreed

I'll give you credit for being consistent.

osm70 · Jul 8, 2019

Lacius said:
In this specific example, Pride is scheduled far in advance, and you can work around it.

Nevermind then. There goes my argument.

Sono · Jul 8, 2019

Lacius said:
I have made almost no edits in this thread. Responses are being merged.

I'm typing fairly slow, so each time it merges, I have to re-quote it.

Lacius said:
That doesn't explain what I'm allegedly a caricature of.

I'm providing what I would consider to be thoughtful and succinct responses to individual points, as you can plainly see from the space my posts are taking up despite the relatively low word counts. The giant blocks of text I'm responding to often repeat their points without addressing mine, hence why I'm feeling a bit repetitive. In other words, some people are hitting "reply" to my post and then typing what they want to say without addressing much of my post.

Aside from arguably wasting my time, I'm not sure what's moronic about anything I've posted.

I think it's because you seem to be extremely biased (not the right word) towards LGBT stuff, but feminist-levels strong, where you can only reply "I'm sorry for existing", because no matter what we do, it's always wrong.

Lacius said:
As I said above, I've been responding to most posts point by point. I have intended for my reponses to be thoughtful and direct.

Try to put some reasoning into your opinion instead of just a repsonse, and try to prove why you're right.

Lacius said:
Respectfully, I'm not very impressed by pearl-clutching. I'm allowed to have fun, and I wasn't using the typo to suggest any of his points were wrong.

I don't think jokes are allowed in a topic serious like this. It's like if I would've made an LGBT joke (which I hope doesn't exist). It's distasteful in my opinion.

Lacius said:
I don't see why it can't be both.

Circuses don't cause traffic jams after they have settled for the few days they are staying.

Lacius said:
If that's not a minor inconvenience you're willing to suffer for the sake of the LGBT rights movement, that's potentially problematic. LGBT Pride also isn't the only event with these kinds of inconveniences. Which ones should also be done away with?

Sorry, it's not my fault that ticket prices are high and this is the only connection available. It's a MAJOR inconvenience. Minor inconvenience would be having to walk 15 minutes to the nearest connection. Major inconvenience is when I have to wait a whole day for the next train, while also having to fork over money again for my non-revokable ticket.

Lacius said:
If these people are admittedly homophobic and transphobic, then I'm not sure you're in a position to assign inward motive to their outward complaints.

I sure am. I know the people around me much better than you, so I know when they are being LGBT-phobic, and when they are legit upset and angry at some major inconveniences.

Lacius said:
Support for Pride is largely positive, with support for the LGBT community consistently growing. And, as I and someone else said earlier, the quickest way to get rid of Pride is to do away with the need for Pride. If you don't like the inconvenience it brings, become an LGBT ally and vote for pro-LGBT politicians and policies.

~~That's like saying "try befriending the bully" just to get bullied when nobody is looking.~~

Edit: I misread this block of text.

Sure, if the community becomes less toxic and less pushing then I will.

Lacius said:
Here in the US, there were protests awhile back from the Black Lives Movement. People were complaining about the traffic, etc., but that was an intended consequence of the protest. It gets people to pay attention to the plights of the black community, it makes people realize that the solution is to address issues of systemic racism, and comparing the plight of the black community to the minor traffic inconvenience put things into perspective.

I have nothing to say, because I don't live in the USA.

Lacius said:
I'm sympathetic to the inconvenience. I hate traffic, and I don't know anyone who likes it. Compared to the issues facing the LGBT community, however, I'm less than concerned about the traffic, etc. It's also arbitrary to complain about traffic specific to Pride but not other events.

Because other events don't block the train tracks.

Lacius said:
See above about the Black Lives Matter protests. You'd be surprised. Historically, disruption is often the goal with protests. That's not the case with Pride.

They most likely disrupted stuff to get attention. In this case the disruption is getting out of hand each year.

Lacius said:
What the LGBT community is doing now is apparently working.

In my opinion it would work even better in casual clothing, and that way they would seem like nice, warmhearted, and normal people, instead of drunk clowns.

Lacius said:
People largely don't dress like clowns, so I'm not sure why we are focusing on a minority of parade goers. There's also nothing wrong with wearing a costume during Pride. Pride goers generally like to see that.

Ok, I give you the point on this one. But there should be a limit on the absurdity of the costume. This should not be a sex parade, but a movement to bring attention so people could have better lives.

Lacius said:
That takes a lot of the fun out of it.

You're metaphorical putting LGBT people back into the closet but hindering identity expression.

I don't think I've ever seen scared children at Pride, aside from the generically fussy baby.

1) who said it must be fun? I thought people are doing this movement to have a better life, not to show off their weird sexual desires (don't take this out of context, kthx).
2) can you please stop with this "putting them back to the closet" thing? My mind never crossed such thing, and I would appreciate if you could stop that. Thanks.
3) ok, I also give you this point because of one of your points mentioned above. But those minority who aren't casually parade-ing do scare children.

Lacius said:
The point of identity expression is to go as big or as small as you want to.

Tell that to an exhibitionist (again, don't take this out of context, thanks).

deinonychus71 · Jul 8, 2019

Lacius said:
White people aren't systemically oppressed. Men aren't systemically oppressed. They never will be.

I can guarantee you, if you keep that stance, one day you'll be on the wrong side of the fence. ANY form of prejudice based on immutable properties can become a form of oppression.
I have a very personal example for you. I had a nice group of furry friends back in the day (like a decade ago), the overwhelming majority being gay or bi (well yeah, furries). The few who were straight were mocked, but apparently that wasn't a big deal when they were affected by it.
Everyone can be bullied and everyone can be a bully.

Sono · Jul 8, 2019

(can't find the original quote)
"Men aren't systematically oppressed"

...feminists, anyone?

Also, this thread shows that "straight cis white male" are worthless, and have no right ~~to live~~ to have any saying in this LGBT movement.

AmandaRose · Jul 8, 2019

Sono said:
Because other events don't block the train tracks.

I totally disagree with that statement. Here in Glasgow nearly every weekend the trains are hugely disrupted by various sporting events and music concerts ect. If the Rangers football team are playing at home that weekend there is a extra 52 thousand people on the trains or jamming up the roads. Then if Celtic football team are also playing at home we have another 60 thousand people on the trains/roads then if we are really unlucky and Partick Thisle football club are also playing at home that's another 5 thousand people on trains/roads and if we are really really unlucky and the Glasgow Warriors Rugby club are at home add another 10 thousand to that list. If you then add in the music festival season which it is currently you are looking at another 40 thousand people.

Like I said this can be nearly every weekend. The Pride parade is for 1 day here. And yet its the only thing people moan about causing disruption which is funny cause it causes less disruption that the events meantioned above.

Lacius · Jul 8, 2019

Sono said:
I think it's because you seem to be extremely biased (not the right word) towards LGBT stuff, but feminist-levels strong, where you can only reply "I'm sorry for existing", because no matter what we do, it's always wrong.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing here.

Sono said:
Try to put some reasoning into your opinion instead of just a repsonse, and try to prove why you're right.

I'd say I've done that. Regardless, I'd rather you respond substantively to my posts, rather than say things like (paraphrased), "Your posts are bad."

Sono said:
I don't think jokes are allowed in a topic serious like this. It's like if I would've made an LGBT joke (which I hope doesn't exist). It's distasteful in my opinion.

respectfully, whether or not you think jokes are allowed is at the bottom of my list of concerns, and I don't think you would find much agreement.

An LGBT joke, depending on the joke, can be distasteful. I made a gay joke earlier in the thread about someone throwing shade around about Pride outfits. It wasn't in poor taste, and it's fine.

What's also fine is referencing a person's typo. It was mildly funny, and nobody got hurt. If someone did get hurt because I acknowledged a typo, that person needs to grow thicker skin. It wasn't an insult.

Sono said:
Circuses don't cause traffic jams after they have settled for the few days they are staying.

I'm not particularly interested in comparing the traffic impact of a circus vs. the traffic impact of a Pride parade. It's irrelevant to most of my points, and it's irrelevant to the one I was responding to.

Sono said:
Sorry, it's not my fault that ticket prices are high and this is the only connection available. It's a MAJOR inconvenience. Minor inconvenience would be having to walk 15 minutes to the nearest connection. Major inconvenience is when I have to wait a whole day for the next train, while also having to fork over money again for my non-revokable ticket.

You should plan ahead next time. Life is full of minor inconveniences, and the gays are not responsible for your problems.

Sono said:
I sure am. I know the people around me much better than you, so I know when they are being LGBT-phobic, and when they are legit upset and angry at some major inconveniences.

It's impossible for you to call for the operation of homophobic minds when they're complaining about an LGBT event, regardless of the specific aspects they're complaining about. True homophobes are never going to be happy with Pride, obviously, so they're also irrelevant to the conversation.

Sono said:
That's like saying "try befriending the bully" just to get bullied when nobody is looking.

The LGBT community isn't the bully; it's society's systemic issues that have necessitated Pride in the first place. If you don't want Pride to be a thing, then as a member of society, it's partly your responsibility to end the need for Pride.

Sono said:
Because other events don't block the train tracks.

I doubt Pride is the only event that causes the same kinds of inconveniences. If it is, then you don't have much to complain about if the only substantive traffic problem happens once a year for you.

Sono said:
They most likely disrupted stuff to get attention. In this case the disruption is getting out of hand each year.

Disruption for attention is often the point of a protest.

Sono said:
In my opinion it would work even better in casual clothing, and that way they would seem like nice, warmhearted, and normal people, instead of drunk clowns.

Contrasting outwardly gay people with "normal people" is an example of why Pride is necessary.

Sono said:
But there should be a limit on the absurdity of the costume. This should not be a sex parade, but a movement to bring attention so people could have better lives.

I don't see the problem with there being some racy attire, and it also doesn't address the topic of whether or not Pride should exist.

Sono said:
1) who said it must be fun?

Historically, people were told that gay people lived sad and lonely lives without fulfillment. One of the purposes of Pride was to correct this false narrative. That's part of the reason why Pride is fun and lively. I'm also not particularly interested in talking about why Pride should be fun, because that's pointless. Something is allowed to be fun for the sake of being fun. If you're going to tell me why it should not be fun, I'm listening.

Sono said:
2) can you please stop with this "putting them back to the closed" thing? My mind never crossed such thing, and I would appreciate if you could stop that. Thanks.

If you don't want to be called out on suggesting that gay people should at least somewhat go back into the closet, don't do it.

Sono said:
3) ok, I also give you this point because of one of your points mentioned above. But those minority who aren't casually parade-ing do scare children.

I'm not saying this is something that cannot and never happens, but children generally aren't anymore afraid of Pride than any other parade-like event. This is a false narrative.

Sono said:
Tell that to an exhibitionist (again, don't take this out of context, thanks).

In what world does that address my point?

deinonychus71 said:
I can guarantee you, if you keep that stance, one day you'll be on the wrong side of the fence. ANY form of prejudice based on immutable properties can become a form of oppression.
I have a very personal example for you. I had a nice group of furry friends back in the day (like a decade ago), the overwhelming majority being gay or bi (well yeah, furries). The few who were straight were mocked, but apparently that wasn't a big deal when they were affected by it.
Everyone can be bullied and everyone can be a bully.

Don't confuse isolated prejudice with systemic oppression.

Sono said:
(can't find the original quote)
"Men aren't systematically oppressed"

...feminists, anyone?

Also, this thread shows that "straight cis white male" are worthless

There is a difference between "men aren't systemically oppressed" and "straight cis white males are worthless." Don't put words in my mouth. I'm get bored when other people argue against strawmen.

Sono said:
and have no right ~~to live~~ to have any saying in this LGBT movement.

I never said straight white men don't have a right to live.
I'm not sure why straight white men would have "any say in the LGBT rights movement." If you mean to suggest that I'm arguing they can't have an opinion on the LGBT rights movement, I never said that. Don't confuse my correcting of misinformation or calling out homophobia as a suggestion that people don't have a right to an opinion.

FAST6191 · Jul 8, 2019

For the general premise of the thread then I am also not sure. If people want to wander through with a sign and holding hands then their weekend to waste, hopefully traffic is not too bothered. I struggle to see where parading (heh) around doing things I would normally have to part with some cash and go to a fun club to see, or the potentially harder task of finding someone willing to participate, is supposed to help things (and to pull up an example from earlier I have no problem with a drag queen reading to kids in a library, and generally find the toilet issue a complete non issue). Similarly having that kid wander along doing things I would similarly have to visit said clubs to see (and attempting to get a personal show is likely to win me a set of shiny bracelets) is probably going to be actively counter productive (if equality with "normal" is the goal then do the change the relevant parameters test and ask if it would be openly welcomed there). This is also before we contemplate whether it is time for the "it is done, now some people to finish the final clean up and keep guard lest something sneak back in are all that is needed" approach or whether something more overt needs to continue.

Some have said that is less of an issue awareness thing these days and more of a "remember what we had to fight through" which could make some sense, but nothing I am particularly inclined to assign any great value to beyond "their weekend to waste", and would also serve to cast the more dubious aspects mentioned above in even harsher light.

AmandaRose said:
Here is a deal for all those who want pride to stop.

Help end homophobia and transphobia and we will have no need for Pride. It's that simple really. Plus it's a win/win for everyone

Is that not an impossible task? There will likely always be someone that cares about such things; if nothing else I doubt we are getting rid of certain takes on religion any time soon and that tends to go hand in hand with such things. Or are we going for some kind of exponential "not completely there but might as well be" type line?
Going the other way then what might such a complete line look like? As it stands there are rather split opinions on the messages on cakes with regards to what is free speech and what is an action that might see the law come down on it, never mind potentially more complicated things.

Do we also then need pride events for other aspects? Or maybe just aspects one can not choose?

SuperDan · Jul 8, 2019

Nerdtendo said:
How do you handle the current political climate of America with kids? I'm almost 18 years old. In 5-6 years, I'll probably have little ones of my own (which I'm super stoked about). I'm really nervous on how to keep them on the straight and narrow as they're growing up. Once they mature, they can make whatever choice they make and I'll always love them, but when they 8, 9, 10... anywhere around that age, I don't want them to be exposed to the pressure of having to pick a sexuality.

We live out in the deep south . Life is much simpler . My boys are 8 & 12 all they care about is games & hunting atm .

Can someone explain to me the importance of Pride parades.

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