Can someone explain to me the importance of Pride parades.

[ignare]

not usually any point lol

 

[Lacius]

I got an interesting question, at pride parades (there are many in my area), people bring their kids more and more lately, why do some guys still feel the need to whip their dick out, I always imagined this wasnt a real thing and just something people said to make it seem like something really bad was happening, but seems it isnt >.>; If it was 18+ I really wouldnt care, but I see more and more kids going to these. I really think they need to decide, either 18+ or family events.... (I know this is not condoned by the events, just seems no one cares if it happens)

My experience has been they're generally kid friendly, but that's obviously not always the case.

 

[Heichart]

I got an interesting question, at pride parades (there are many in my area), people bring their kids more and more lately, why do some guys still feel the need to whip their dick out, I always imagined this wasnt a real thing and just something people said to make it seem like something really bad was happening, but seems it isnt >.>; If it was 18+ I really wouldnt care, but I see more and more kids going to these. I really think they need to decide, either 18+ or family events.... (I know this is not condoned by the events, just seems no one cares if it happens)

The same way people stick out their dicks in trains, bus, beach, any public place: parents can't know in advance some weird people think they are free of consequences for what they do.

 

[AmandaRose]

***the "trans women are women too" one from the other day probably being a start there. Right now it is common thrown out as something of a counter to the terfs and while I don't find them terribly good in their approach I don't disagree with their opposition to the "if you don't sleep with me because I am trans then you are a bigot" notion. Happy to use the given pronouns, happy to call a relationship where you shack up with a woman a lesbian relationship, but if someone does not care to shack up because you are trans then I am not even going to call that person an arsehole as it seems like a perfectly fine thing to put down to personal preference.

The trans woman are women avatar was in direct response to comments in the last transgender thread where 5 site members all said that trans females were not women. Also that is the same thread where I said that if a trans woman called a man transphobic for not sleeping with them then the trans community would immediately have distanced themselfs from that woman. And that is exactly what we did when Lauren Harries did exactly that on Celebrity Big Brother a few years ago. So we are actually on the same page with that one..

 

[Durelle]

Everybody deserves love and happiness.

 

[FAST6191]

The trans woman are women avatar was in direct response to comments in the last transgender thread where 5 site members all said that trans females were not women. Also that is the same thread where I said that if a trans woman called a man transphobic for not sleeping with them then the trans community would immediately have distanced themselfs from that woman. And that is exactly what we did when Lauren Harries did exactly that on Celebrity Big Brother a few years ago. So we are actually on the same page with that one..

Fair enough. Guess it is one of those overloaded terms these days. Probably some more nuance to consider it in but nothing of great note.

Everybody deserves love and happiness.

I would say I don't.

 

[Lucifer666]

Hi lucifer, you're probably can give a decent opinion in this case then, can you advise me how marching in pride, and I guess in a sense identifying who you are at a scale be productive in the fight for equality and acceptance and in turn manage the ability to fit in and be anonymous while maintaining who you are.

Sure.

Because it sends a city-wide message of "we're here, we're queer, we are a large enough population to put together something this massive every year, and we're not going anywhere, so there's no getting rid of us"

to those who have a serious issue with it in terms of homophobia/transphobia, this acts as a solution because:

• for those who are homophobic/transphobic out of ignorance: they are forced to come to terms with the fact that being gay or trans is a very real and valid experience that inevitably some of their friends/coworkers/doctors/teachers/fellow community members go through that needs to be respected rather than shunned
• for those who are homophobic/transphobic out of sheer malice: when pride becomes a fundamental part of your city's identity, being the big yearly event that it is, homophobia/transphobia is less mainstream and more taboo, as it should be

I hope this explanation makes sense.

I personally feel safer moving somewhere given the knowledge that they have a pride parade. It means I likely won't be living in a community where I'm going to feel 'othered' every day of my life

I think that while those who claim "we don't need pride because we should be the same as heterosexual people who don't need pride" have a valid opinion it also stems from enormous amounts of privilege (typically white and in the anglosphere) such that they have never felt desperate to call for and enact change on a societal level before the true equality they speak of will ever be achievable. we don't get to equality by pretending that the issues that target minorities don't exist. If pride and pride month didn't exist I would not be able to find easy proof of widespread support for LGBT people to show to my notoriously bigoted Arab parents, as an example.

EDIT: @Memoir and @DinohScene in retrospect I think you might appreciate this insight, all of which is based on personal experience.

 

[Mike9090]

I asked this on a different site somewhere and it's such a big thing since 30 years ago being gay gould get you killed in some countries and it wasn't that normal to be gay or whatever. Now most (if not all) countries made it 'legal' to marry as a gay/lesbian couple. It's kind of like celebrating that your country won the war in a way.

 

[cots]

@Lacius, your posts are all split up and it makes it a little hard to figure out what you were referring to, however I think there's a middleground between "do it in the closet" and pride scale celebration.

For example, I don't think most people have an issue with a gay couple holding hands in public, I think they would have a problem with gay people kissing for five minutes though.
But to be honest, people also tend to have issues with straight people kissing audibly for five minutes straight (ok maybe they don't point it out as much?). It's common decency at this point.

Now, if you happen to see someone bitching about a couple holding hands, please call them out loudly, and we'll see how people react around you.
That is what matters, it's whether the general population accepted an idea as "normal", and maybe I'm naive? But I think they did.

Now for the "utility" aspect of Pride, it seems that there's a correlation versus causation issue with your statement here. I may as well say that the Internet played a huge part as well (I'm also pretty sure it had a much bigger impact than Pride), we can't know for sure.
However what I know is that a truly homophobic/transphobic person will not change their mind because of Pride, but it will reinforce their wrong assumptions about them because of some of the people going to the Pride and being over the top.

I don't have a problem with people holding hands. I do get uncomfortable when I see couples all over each other, kissing or having sex in public (I've witnessed both on multiple occasions, the latter less frequently). There are just sorts of behavior that aren't socially acceptable in a modern society and it would be ass backwards to start considering allowing people to do what they should be doing in private in public. Most people don't like the loudmouth crackhead one the corner harassing people, most people dislike the jerk blasting his radio on the city bus and most people dislike having to hear about your personal sexual preferences or watching you flaunt your "stuff" in front of them.

People that are truly phobic of something aren't going to change their minds easily nor should it be anyone's business to force them to change their minds. If they are acting out and causing problems because of their phobia then it should be considered an issue. Simply stating you dislike something or don't agree with it isn't any sort of phobic behavior. That's just the bullies using terminology incorrectly in an attempt to force their viewpoints on you.

 

[Bullseye]

A summary of this thread:

OP: Question about Pride event

General reply: if you don't agree with anything in our (rainbow) agenda you are a [...]phobic. Any form of reply/argument against is an attack, therefore you are [...]phobic.

Conclusion: questions (or even lack of interest in the topic) are not tolerated in any form or way if they put in doubt any point in the (rainbow) agenda. And by all means it should be the most important thing in everyone's life at all given times.

 

[AmandaRose]

@cots you keep saying you are not transphobic so have a look at this please. And here are some key points from it.

Transphobia can take many different forms, including

• 1 negative attitudes and beliefs
  
  
• 2 aversion to and prejudice against transgender people
• 3 disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity

Ok let's look at point 1 first you have severe negatively to the trans community as demonstrated in your posts above and in other threads

Ok next point 2. You have shown in several threads prejudice towards the trans community

Ok let's move to point 3. You keep discounting my gender identity.

You fail several things on this list of what is considered transphobic


You have came here with an agenda to turn what is a thread about pride and the lgbt community into an attempt to single out and bash the trans community
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/l...er-nonconforming-identities/whats-transphobia

 

[cots]

@cots you keep saying you are not transphobic so have a look at this please. And here are some key points from it.

Transphobia can take many different forms, including

• 1 negative attitudes and beliefs
  
  
• 2 aversion to and prejudice against transgender people
• 3 disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity

I disagree with your definition of this particular phobia (nor with the general consensus on the "anyone can edit me" wikipedia definition). While an aversion is an extreme dislike, simply not agreeing with someone, what they chose to identify themselves as or having a negative attitude isn't phobic. So aversion wouldn't fit under your current definition, even if the other two values were correct, but they aren't, because a phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, defined by a persistent and excessive fear of an object or situation. I'm not scared or trans people or have any sort of anxiety disorder because of what they believe in, I simply don't agree with a lot of them and the way they go about things.

I don't argue that you may identify as a female, but you have no right to tell me that I have to address you as a female, when you were born a biological male. That is interfering with my belief system. Now, that may be rude, but it's not any sort of phobic behavior. I'm going to chose to identify people based on their biological birth sex, not because I dislike trans people, but because I'm not going to even try to keep up with the current terminology on what people want to be called. If you can identify as anything it could get really tricky, so I rather take a cue from the Government and just address you as how you were born.

Abut the way I view the current people in the trans movement and most of their life style choices. You may view it as negative, but I don't. I think identifying them for what they are and not agreeing with them is a positive and healthy thing for me to do, nor is it extreme or severe. I don't see any negativity involved. You may, but I don't and since you're only taking your viewpoint into consideration I think it would only be fair to only take my viewpoint into consideration. Of course, life isn't fair, so that's also something you're going to have to realize and deal with.

Ok let's look at point 1 first you have severe negatively to the trans community as demonstrated in your posts above and in other threads

Not the entire community, just most of the current stuff that is going down. Remember, the current trans movement doesn't encompass all of the trans people. The friends I have that are trans want nothing to do with it and think around the same as I do about the entire situation. We're older and have been around longer so we understand more about it then this younger more naive generation does.

Ok next point 2. You have shown in several threads prejudice towards the trans community

Just the ones acting like clowns or trying to manipulate and control others to support their unhealthy, immoral and self destructing life style choices.

Ok let's move to point 3. You keep discounting my gender identity.

I don't deny that you think you're a female because you identify as a female, but that doesn't change what I chose to identify you by, which would be your biological birth sex. You should respect my beliefs and the fact that this is what I chose to identify people as. You see, things like this go both ways.

You fail several things on this list of what is considered transphobic

As I've already stated, the term is being abused. Simply not liking or disagreeing with a particular way the current trans movement is being handled or the life style lead by some of it's members isn't phobic behavior. I'm not discriminating against trans people for simply disagreeing with how some of them go about life or the choices they make.

You have came here with an agenda to turn what is a thread about pride and the lgbt community into an attempt to single out and bash the trans community

No I haven't. I replied to the OP's post regarding parades, which was my first reply, and then I replied to the general conversation going on, like I would any other thread. If there wasn't discussion regarding the trans community here, I wouldn't have replied to it. I don't need to "bash" the trans community I'm referring to in my replies, they're doing a good job at doing that themselves.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/sexual-orientation-gender/trans-and-gender-nonconforming-identities/whats-transphobia

I see, the general consensus, from this organization is about on par with the wikipedia entry, so I also dismiss most of what they have to say based on this fact along with the fact that plannedparenthood supports and funds abortions.

"may be denied jobs, housing, or health care, just because they’re transgender."

This would be discrimination, therefor, it would fall under the category of transphobic behavior. You won't find me refusing anyone these services based solely on their chosen identity, but I sure as well could deny people services and be in my legal right for other factors that currently a lot of trans people participate in. Granted, these factors, which I've mention in my replies above (the entire "flamer" behavior) could be associated with anyone regardless if they are trans are not, I simply could refuse someone services because they are disrespectful, shoving their sexual identify in my face, harassing me, being abuse, bullying me, calling me names (including transphobic), etc ... That sort of behavior doesn't fly with me, not matter what you identify as.

The stress of transphobia on trans people can be very harmful and can cause: depression fear isolation feelings of hopelessness suicide

I could see how real discrimination, like the examples listed in my first italic quote, could contribute to these sorts of behaviors, but these sorts of behaviors are generally associated with mentally unstable people (people that don't know how to deal with their emotions in a positive manner).

By misusing the terminology trans people are creating a hostile situation were younger, more vulnerable members might think that a general dislike is phobic behavior or that they are being abused and therefor turn to these bad coping mechanisms, but in reality they aren't being harmed by someone simply having an opposing viewpoint.

I don't have an answer on how to address people with mentally fragile minds, but teaching them people are mistreating them for simply not agreeing with their lifestyle choices is contributing to the problem. Maybe if the more competent trans members weren't trying to abuse the term and push their agenda on others to try to force them to accept their belief system the weaker minded members wouldn't get so upset.

Cisgender people who are allies to trans people

This is a prime example of the sort of negative thinking that is being promoted in the community. That people are there enemies just because they disagree with them. You enemy is someone that is out to harm you, like, attack you or kill you, at best, deny your services or cause you harm. I'm not your enemy nor is someone who simply doesn't agree with you. I can see that mentally unstable people, who can't deal with opposing viewpoints or their own emotions could consider people not agreeing with them as some sort of personal attack, but it's more than likely not that way (you know, in reality, not in the "I'm going to kill myself because of XYZ" mood).

People are going to disagree with you on a daily basis about all sorts of things, and frankly, trans people can't seem to agree with their sex assigned at birth or that harming or altering your body, which was made perfect, is a sin. How do you expect that others should just change they way they think and agree with you when you can't even agree with yourself?

What can I do to help stop transphobia?

These are laid out in a particular order, some would apply to actual discrimination, while others are just a polite way to go about things and then others are just being manipulative and basically saying you have to agree with them and act a certain way otherwise you're being transphobic, but in reality, if you're using the phobic term correctly, you're not. So I generally don't agree with this section.

Thanks for the link. I had no idea this pro-abortion organization addresses the issue and to be honest I'm surprised it's not 100% bias and full of misinformation, but overall I don't agree with most of it therefor don't consider it valid. Remember, I'm going off the definition of phobia's, real phobia's - not some Wikipedia entry that is being populated throughout the internet created solely by people that are currently involved in and support the current trans movement (which is why, if you do any sort of research on how bias and inaccurate wikipedia can be, you might see my point).

Of course, I've already come to the conclusion that I'm not experiencing any sort of extreme anxiety related to trans people. If you ask my old cross dressing weight lifting male friend (who identified as a female and shared various partners at the same time - not with me of course) how scared of him I get when we used to work weekly in the gym located in his basement he'd probably look at you funny and laugh.

 

[Lacius]

I disagree with your definition of this particular phobia (nor with the general consensus on the "anyone can edit me" wikipedia definition).

Definitions are literally just the "general consensus" of what a word means.

 

[deinonychus71]

@cots you keep saying you are not transphobic so have a look at this please. And here are some key points from it.

Transphobia can take many different forms, including

• 1 negative attitudes and beliefs
  
  
• 2 aversion to and prejudice against transgender people
• 3 disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity

Ok let's look at point 1 first you have severe negatively to the trans community as demonstrated in your posts above and in other threads

Ok next point 2. You have shown in several threads prejudice towards the trans community

Ok let's move to point 3. You keep discounting my gender identity.

You fail several things on this list of what is considered transphobic


You have came here with an agenda to turn what is a thread about pride and the lgbt community into an attempt to single out and bash the trans community
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/l...er-nonconforming-identities/whats-transphobia

Hold on a second.
- Having different beliefs is absolutely acceptable. For example, someone saying "I personally think gender refers to your physiological attributes" as a general statement should not be burnt at the stake. I don't think that constitute transphobia at all. It's just disagreeing with a terminology. Transphobia would be assuming X or Y because you are trans, which would be your second point.

- Gender identity is a fairly new concept/social construct. You're demanding that people who were born with a specific moral compass to adapt to a new dogma that has NOT yet reached nationwide/worldwide adoption. It matters, because even though you may certainly be right, a lot of people were raised with a polar opposite idea of what gender is and with a specific set of values for guys and girls. It's "hardcoded" in them, and changing that isn't as simple as pressing a switch button.
That right there is what alt-left and alt-right alike don't understand. They're too quick at pointing fingers and calling everything evil and bad. Being open to peaceful debates is the only way to reach middlegrounds. It's a problem plaguing both extremes.
- Also point 2 about gender identity, I'm not sure if you include non binary genders into that, but if you do, I would please urge you to back down a little bit and try to see the point of view of the other side. There is currently 0 need in society for the recognition of more than 2 genders. You can be whatever you want, and ask to be called whatever you want, but ultimately I think it falls on non binary people to show how officially recognizing more than 2 genders is relevant. As a center-leftist, I really fail to see the relevance and am still waiting for someone to explain it to me.

- The whole concept of transgender(ism?) can be genuinely confusing, without meaning anything "bad": Is there even a consensus on what gender identity mean among transgender people? For example:
* If tomorrow genders are to be blended together and children should be able to enjoy playing with dolls regardless if they're physiologically male or female, what's even the point of using genders?
* If genders make a difference, does that inform me about a set of activities/tendencies this person tend to prefer? Like if you're physiologically a man and call yourself a woman, does that mean you like pink (awfully simplified but you get the idea).
I guess what i'm trying to say is... people can get genuinely confused as to what it means.

 

[Lacius]

For example, someone saying "I personally think gender refers to your physiological attributes" as a general statement should not be burnt at the stake. I don't think that constitute transphobia at all. It's just disagreeing with a terminology.

Right, and I agree with you, but if a person stubbornly refuses to acknowledge after the fact that people are using the word "gender" to refer to identity because they refuse to accept that one's gender identity can be different from one's physiology, that's transphobia and trans-erasure.

 

[Lucifer666]

A summary of this thread:

OP: Question about Pride event

General reply: if you don't agree with anything in our (rainbow) agenda you are a [...]phobic. Any form of reply/argument against is an attack, therefore you are [...]phobic.

Conclusion: questions (or even lack of interest in the topic) are not tolerated in any form or way if they put in doubt any point in the (rainbow) agenda. And by all means it should be the most important thing in everyone's life at all given times.

Nice one. Care to provide even a single example of this?

 

[osm70]

I'd like to know where I said that white men cannot be oppressed (I didn't). There's always going to be someone who hates you, regardless of your demographics and identities.

In reality, I said they will never be systemically oppressed like women, racial minorities, LGBT minorities, etc.

My responses immediately follow the quoted text above.


LGBT PDA and straight PDA is a big issue as well, and it's another reason for Pride. For example, while they arguably shouldn't be doing it, couples discovered to be having sex in a semi-public place are far more likely to be arrested if they're LGBT.


Pride is largely about normalizing the existence of LGBT people.


You're right. A lot of factors went into the increasing acceptance of LGBT people and LGBT rights. However, arguably the biggest was people coming out. Before the coming out movement, the LGBT community was as invisible as they were vilified. Once people's kids, neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc. started coming out, the mental image of depraved monsters in the sewers that nobody had ever seen before began to go away.

It's also worth noting the Pride is specifically for the LGBT community and LGBT allies, and it's their space to do as they wish. That's why the costumes, for example, are largely popular; the people at Pride are mostly the people already supportive of Pride. There's not much of an incentive to tone it down when the people who want it toned down are the people who are never going to attend in the first place.


White people aren't systemically oppressed. Men aren't systemically oppressed. They never will be.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


I have a lot of points in a previous post about how, although I'm sympathetic to traffic frustrations and the like, I'm not very concerned about these issues in comparison to the issues facing the LGBT community. In other words, I think the benefits of Pride far outweigh the minor logistical inconveniences.

Also, if you're late for an exam, it's not the fault of the LGBT community. In this specific example, Pride is scheduled far in advance, and you can work around it. Regardless, you should plan to arrive hours in advance if you literally cannot afford to be late.


I'll give you credit for being consistent.

I think this is what they meant.