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PragerU's Not a Real Uni and Murder is Wrong.

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Foxi4

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Yeah, Article 13 is limiting... by removing Safe Harbor. Or am I wrong?
Article 13 strengthens copyright laws and infringes upon Fair Use. I am perfectly fine with removing Safe Harbor from platforms that choose to stringently police content in a way that far exceeds the legal standard, I am not okay with an outright denouncement of freedom of information. It's a question of scope, not principle.
 

Xzi

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It's sad that the Internet is getting smaller, not bigger. This is why I support upstarts like stream dot me, we need to support the alternatives. But alas, as I already mentioned, I fully intend to be a drunk fool tonight, so I must depart while I am still coherent. ;)
Cheers and merry Christmas! I'm already stoned ofc because I've had about a week long vacation from work. :lol:
 

TotalInsanity4

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I don't see the contradiction. Prices are determined by supply and demand, workers are paid as much as they agree to be paid via consensual contract. Nobody is forced to work in modern, developed societies - we've dispensed with slavery. If you want to argue that this is evil, you have to first deal with the fact that the worker in question entered into a legally binding contract with consent from both sides. If the contract is not beneficial to the worker and the worker signs it, he's an idiot. If less workers agreed to sub-par contracts, demand would be higher and wages would increase. It's the workers who are in charge in this relationship, they're the ones accepting unacceptable terms of employment. Supply and demand holds.
The problem, though, is exactly that; jobs that are typically associated with entry-level positions have a high supply of applicants with a relatively low demand. As @Xzi mentions later, this creates a revolving-door scenerio in which the employer can effectively say "we can rotate out a bunch of low-skill high schoolers and train them for less money than what you'd want us to pay you. Why should we do that?" Sure, they'd be losing efficiency (even "low skill" jobs have a bunch of skill associated with them that can only be learned with experience), but as you've mentioned in a lot of different discussions, most employers will go with the best cost/benefit solution for the short term.

And don't get me started with unions. They work everywhere EXCEPT here because the US has constantly been pushing out propaganda that unionizing is never to the benefit of the individual and only serve to be pouty against the innocent businesses (when in reality, unionizing ALWAYS benefits the employees, and helps keep the businesses in check when they start taking advantage of workers)
 
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SG854

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Easy fix - take Safe Harbor away. Most of the IT giants exist specifically because liability is put on the users, not on the company. This allows Alphabet to operate without any scorn from the government. What Alphabet is conveniently neglecting to uphold is that Safe Harbor comes with a caveat - they must provide equal access to everyone. Since this is obviously not the case and all Google entities are heavily moderated and censored, they no longer qualify as public platforms and should instead be considered publishers - they're the ones who started monitoring and censoring content. Without Safe Harbor protecting the online giants they will eat eachother while smaller platforms still free and still protected can flourish and displace them.

I agree, government meddling is a necessary component if every monopoly, which is why it should be excised from the sphere of private business. Since we don't live in that perfect world, we must work on other mechanisms. I don't disagree with any principles you've outlined, they're all correct.
There is no perfect anything. No perfect free market, no perfect regulation, and it’s about making sacrifices and choosing one that produces superior results.

I would be in favor of regulation if it makes sense. But so far I have seen negative outcomes instead. The internet is one though that has me thinking, but so far I haven’t seen anyone propose a regulation that won’t negatively back fire instead.

People want us to imitate Sweden but Sweden has less regulation then we do. And we are prevented from coming out with useful innovations that is allowed to be sold in Sweden but not in the U.S. because of the regulations we have.
 

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Video is hogwash. Assumes conclusion and then uses that as evidence for the conclusion. Doesn't make arguments so much as just states opinions as facts. This is why we need ethical philosophy as a mandatory part of our high-school curriculum.

Atheists always say morality is not objective, but nobody actually believes that. If morality is just "behavioral tendencies specific to given culture", we have no right to call Islamic terrorists wrong. Their morality says infidels are to be killed. Meaning they're not monsters - they're martyrs, heroes, saints. How dare you say a bad word about their actions, you bigot. Sure, they break our laws and we can prosecute them because of that, but our laws are simply unjust in this regard, clearly.


There's plenty of things stopping one from murdering, but other than belief in higher, objective morality, there isn't anything I can see that would stop one from believing murder isn't wrong. That's my point - I believe that the world was created not just with matter, not just with space and time and not just with rules of physics built in - but also with moral rules. That morality is as real and objective as gravity - it's not "ideas we invent", it's "facts we discover". It's like science, only we're capable of going against it, unlike with, say, gravity.
Do tell me what stops you from believing murder is as morally neutral as blowing your nose and doesn't have its source in objective idea of morality. That something is exactly what I have never been able to find.


Not exactly.
Because of His omniscience God knows what is right and because of His Love, He commands exactly that. Things aren't good because He commands them, He commands them because they're good. This may sound like God is subject to an even higher authority, a "morality" beyond Himself - but again, that is no morality at that point, that's Love. He wants Good, because He is Love and that's what Love wants for Its object. We're like little children, trying to put a metal fork into the electrical socket and calling our parents' decision to forbid it "arbitrary" and "selfish". It's not - they just know better and they love us. That combination is key.


Once again, an atheist hears "morality comes from God" and answers with "that's just ridiculous, illogical propaganda and no, I'm not gonna tell you why that is, have an insult instead".
Edgy 13-17 year-olds indeed.
Come on, if you want to argue against the points made - argue against the points being made.

Morality is an emergent property of being social animals. Read up on the morality in other social animals and it'll become clearer. Evolutionary biology has a lot of answers, if you're curious enough to go looking for answers ("prisoner's dilemma" is a good starting point). The long and short of it is, the better we treat each other and the community, the stronger the community and the happier each individual generally is. Ethical discussions usually revolve the balance between the needs of the community and the needs of the few or individual, finding solutions that maximize both while sacrificing as little as possible.

If a higher entity told you something was wrong, and its opinion is what made it wrong, it's not ethically wrong in any logical way. It's wrong only because you'd be disobeying the higher entity's desires. Which is the absolute worst way to construct an ethical system. "do it because I said so" is a poor reason to do anything. "do it because I know better than you" hints they are also logically thinking it out, meaning morality is not based on their will, but because it is helpful or meaningful in some way we could suss out. Which means...we don't need a god to arrive at morality, we just have to think it through :P

We have reasons not to murder. real, physical, meaningful reasons. We don't murder because we value our own lives. We value the lives of those important to us, those around us, those that are a part of our "tribe". The closer in proximity to your "tribe" someone is, the more you're likely to value their life, their opinions, and value their needs. The more ethical you are, the more likely you are to see the entirety of the human race as part of your "tribe". "darn foreigners" is an expression of "they're not a part of my tribe", which generally means that person will value their lives lower than those they do consider part of their tribe.

There are loads of books, youtube videos, research, podcast, whatever you want on this topic. I'd be happy to share any and everything you'd like. It's a whole field unto itself.
 
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SG854

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Unions no longer have the power that they once did (largely because of corporate lobbying), and we're well past the age of companies showing loyalty to their employees. There are a ton of jobs available right now, but they all pay shit and the working conditions are often even worse than that. Revolving door positions are extremely common now. So how is an individual worker meant to have any influence whatsoever on a system so rigged against them?
If it makes things any better Amazon is lobbying to raise the federal minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour. But then comes the question why are they lobbying?

Would a company looking to pay its workers the least amount of money they can Lobby to raise the minimum wage out of the goodness of their hearts. What’s in it for them to force their competitors to raise their minimum wage.
 
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osaka35

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If it makes things any better Amazon is lobbying to raise the federal minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour. But then comes the question why are they lobbying?

Would a company looking to pay its workers the least amount of money they can Lobby to raise the minimum wage out of the goodness of their hearts. What’s in it for them to force their competitors to raise their minimum wage.
I'd imagine because they think that'll attract more workers while also improving the economy. A stronger economy means more people using amazon to buy stuff. I hear their working conditions aren't great in warehouses, and a higher minimum wage might keep them from complaining about the poor work conditions? Just completely guessing.
 
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Xzi

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If it makes things any better Amazon is lobbying to raise the federal minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour. But then comes the question why are they lobbying?

Would a company looking to pay its workers the least amount of money they can Lobby to raise the minimum wage out of the goodness of their hearts. What’s in it for them to force their competitors to raise their minimum wage.
Amazon used a $15/hour wage as an excuse to remove other benefits such as healthcare coverage and bonuses. They also used the positive PR from this to take focus off their extremely poor working conditions. I imagine other corporations will see this as an opportunity to engage in similar shitty practices, but I suppose it is still a net positive if big employers like Wal-Mart and fast food are eventually forced into a living wage. Those people almost never had health coverage or other benefits to begin with, and their working conditions were already shitty.
 

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Okay, so I'm gonna assume the OP is an atheist... Why is murder wrong? That's an interesting discussion, because as someone who agrees with the video, I have been trying to figure out a possible atheistic source for objective morality for quite a while now and I'm coming up short every time. Sure, we can have "majority rule" morality, but that's still not objective "right" and "wrong", that's just law.

Just because people don't believe in God doesn't make them a moral-less husk. There's this thing called hormones that we have that control emotion. Hormones tell people to not kill, because it's instinct to not hurt our own species.
 

SG854

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Amazon used a $15/hour wage as an excuse to remove other benefits such as healthcare coverage and bonuses. They also used the positive PR from this to take focus off their extremely poor working conditions. I imagine other corporations will see this as an opportunity to engage in similar shitty practices, but I suppose it is still a net positive if big employers like Wal-Mart and fast food are eventually forced into a living wage. Those people almost never had health coverage or other benefits to begin with, and their working conditions were already shitty.
I'd imagine because they think that'll attract more workers while also improving the economy. A stronger economy means more people using amazon to buy stuff. I hear their working conditions aren't great in warehouses, and a higher minimum wage might keep them from complaining about the poor work conditions? Just completely guessing.
I’m thinking more along the lines that their competition can’t afford it. So they are eliminating competition.

Walmart worldwide net sales $495,761 billion. But of that 9,862,000,000 is actual profit. Most of their sales goes into costs running the business.

There are 2.2 million Walmart workers. If you divide their profits with workers, and divide average hours worked a year, 1,811, that’ll be a $2.48 raise a year.

Not enough to meet the 15 minimum wage. Not only that, that’s the entire profit so none will be left over to invest in innovations or to pay the business owners since they are payed on profits. Workers get paid first before CEO sees any money.

Walmart 2018 Annual report.
 
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osaka35

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I’m thinking more along the lines that their competition can’t afford it. So they are eliminating competition.

Walmart worldwide net sales $495,761 billion. But of that 9,862,000,000 is actual profit. Most of their sales goes into costs running the business.

There are 2.2 million Walmart workers. If you divide their profits with workers, and divide average hours worked a year, 1,811, that’ll be a $2.48 raise a year.

Not enough to meet the 15 minimum wage. Not only that, that’s the entire profit so none will be left over to invest in innovations or to pay the business owners since they are payed on profits. Workers get paid first before CEO sees any money.

Walmart 2018 Annual report.

Yes, but that's assuming the extra money folks are getting won't be spent. You have to include a reasonable expectation of how much will be put back into the economy, in which sectors, otherwise its an incomplete assessment.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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I’m thinking more along the lines that their competition can’t afford it. So they are eliminating competition.

Walmart worldwide net sales $495,761 billion. But of that 9,862,000,000 is actual profit. Most of their sales goes into costs running the business.

There are 2.2 million Walmart workers. If you divide their profits with workers, and divide average hours worked a year, 1,811, that’ll be a $2.48 raise a year.

Not enough to meet the 15 minimum wage. Not only that, that’s the entire profit so none will be left over to invest in innovations or to pay the business owners since they are payed on profits. Workers get paid first before CEO sees any money.

Walmart 2018 Annual report.
That's probably what they're thinking, yes. But assuming Amazon is the current highest-grossing retailer in the nation (and I'm inclined to say they are, although I'd need to look at a stat sheet), it makes sense for them to be among the first to pay a company-wide living wage, while giving other businesses a chance to breathe, build up a bit of revenue, and then follow the lead shortly after

Unfortunately, what you mentioned seems to be the case; Amazon will always pay their warehouse workers as little as they can legally get away with, and if raising the legal minimum wage can help eliminate small business competition, then they'll take that proverbial club to hit them in the kneecaps with. From a PR standpoint it looks like philanthropy, when in reality it would effectively be domination

Edit: it should be mentioned that a lot of this would be moot if Bezos paid ANY taxes, considering that would reduce the tax burden on citizens and decrease the need for a wage hike
 
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eworm

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Oh boy, there's a lot to unpack here.
It's exactly what's happening. Are you saying they're fully aware they're monsters and don't believe they're martyrs, heroes, saints? That fact itself will tell you that they believe in a different set of morality.
Way to miss my point entirely. Not knowing about how gravity works doesn't make it less real. Being wrong about what's moral or immoral is not "a different morality", it's being in the wrong. My whole point is that morality is not "ideals" or "beliefs", it's more akin to "facts" and "knowledge" - and you keep talking as if I'm saying the opposite.

You whole argument is that there's ONE objective set of morals that comes from YOUR particular flavour of christianity and relies on a majority consensus of people who believe in that brand (which is a concept you earlier dismissed as "just law").
I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Religion, religion, religion, I did not once said religion is the source of morality. I said GOD is. The world He created just operates on set rules. You wouldn't accuse physicists of proclaiming their "opinion" about how exactly gravity works and call it their community's "arbitrary decision" to teach it.

The long and short of it is, the better we treat each other and the community, the stronger the community and the happier each individual generally is.
The word "better" has no meaning if morality is subjective, that's the point. We can say "the higher the temperature, the more water evaporates" or something, because temperature is not a matter of opinion or majority vote. But we can't say "the nicer the temperature, the more water evaporates".
Treating each other well, sure, let's go with that. I'm gonna say "treating each other well" involves forbidding abortion, aka murder of helpless children, preventing it at all costs. But a person on the political left will jump in and say "treating each other well" involves giving all women free access to abortion, because they should be able to have unprotected, irresponsible sex all they want and not suffer the natural, obvious consequences of their actions. Would you look at that, we both agree on treating each other better, how well we would get along.

If a higher entity told you something was wrong, and its opinion is what made it wrong, it's not ethically wrong in any logical way. It's wrong only because you'd be disobeying the higher entity's desires. Which is the absolute worst way to construct an ethical system. "do it because I said so" is a poor reason to do anything. "do it because I know better than you" hints they are also logically thinking it out, meaning morality is not based on their will, but because it is helpful or meaningful in some way we could suss out. Which means...we don't need a god to arrive at morality, we just have to think it through :P

We have reasons not to murder. real, physical, meaningful reasons. We don't murder because we value our own lives. We value the lives of those important to us, those around us, those that are a part of our "tribe". The closer in proximity to your "tribe" someone is, the more you're likely to value their life, their opinions, and value their needs. The more ethical you are, the more likely you are to see the entirety of the human race as part of your "tribe". "darn foreigners" is an expression of "they're not a part of my tribe", which generally means that person will value their lives lower than those they do consider part of their tribe.
Physical reason = we care about each other.
Let me unpack what you said. We care about each other therefore we treat each other well therefore we don't need objective morality to treat each other well.
Except objective morality is the source of "we care about each other". We are moral therefore we care about each other therefore we treat each other well therefore we think we don't need objective morality to treat each other well.
That's like saying we don't need to actually like a video game because we keep playing it and we have a good time doing so. And since we're having a good time, we don't need to even like the game, just need to keep playing. Playing is the source of the fun, clearly, not some "liking", get real.
Yes, that is the weirdest analogy I've ever made.
 

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I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Religion, religion, religion, I did not once said religion is the source of morality. I said GOD is. The world He created just operates on set rules. You wouldn't accuse physicists of proclaiming their "opinion" about how exactly gravity works and call it their community's "arbitrary decision" to teach it.

Which GOD?
 
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"Have moral standards. Make a god who stand for thoses values. Wait some couple of 100 years and tell people that without this god those values wouldnt exist and use that to have power on people by using fear and emotional blackmail while using the words "love" and "respect" to watch them tearing themselves apart to protect your power in your place. Profit."
 

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Way to miss my point entirely. Not knowing about how gravity works doesn't make it less real. Being wrong about what's moral or immoral is not "a different morality", it's being in the wrong. My whole point is that morality is not "ideals" or "beliefs", it's more akin to "facts" and "knowledge" - and you keep talking as if I'm saying the opposite.


I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Religion, religion, religion, I did not once said religion is the source of morality. I said GOD is. The world He created just operates on set rules. You wouldn't accuse physicists of proclaiming their "opinion" about how exactly gravity works and call it their community's "arbitrary decision" to teach it.


The word "better" has no meaning if morality is subjective, that's the point. We can say "the higher the temperature, the more water evaporates" or something, because temperature is not a matter of opinion or majority vote. But we can't say "the nicer the temperature, the more water evaporates".
Treating each other well, sure, let's go with that. I'm gonna say "treating each other well" involves forbidding abortion, aka murder of helpless children, preventing it at all costs. But a person on the political left will jump in and say "treating each other well" involves giving all women free access to abortion, because they should be able to have unprotected, irresponsible sex all they want and not suffer the natural, obvious consequences of their actions. Would you look at that, we both agree on treating each other better, how well we would get along.

If a higher entity told you something was wrong, and its opinion is what made it wrong, it's not ethically wrong in any logical way. It's wrong only because you'd be disobeying the higher entity's desires. Which is the absolute worst way to construct an ethical system. "do it because I said so" is a poor reason to do anything. "do it because I know better than you" hints they are also logically thinking it out, meaning morality is not based on their will, but because it is helpful or meaningful in some way we could suss out. Which means...we don't need a god to arrive at morality, we just have to think it through :P


Physical reason = we care about each other.
Let me unpack what you said. We care about each other therefore we treat each other well therefore we don't need objective morality to treat each other well.
Except objective morality is the source of "we care about each other". We are moral therefore we care about each other therefore we treat each other well therefore we think we don't need objective morality to treat each other well.
That's like saying we don't need to actually like a video game because we keep playing it and we have a good time doing so. And since we're having a good time, we don't need to even like the game, just need to keep playing. Playing is the source of the fun, clearly, not some "liking", get real.
Yes, that is the weirdest analogy I've ever made.

You know, every moral standard set in one part of the bible is contradicted somewhere else. There are parts that condone rape, murder, incest, slavery, dismemberment, and even abortion as the bible says life doesn't begin until your first breath. Sounds pretty subjective to me
 
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TotalInsanity4

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I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Religion, religion, religion, I did not once said religion is the source of morality. I said GOD is. The world He created just operates on set rules. You wouldn't accuse physicists of proclaiming their "opinion" about how exactly gravity works and call it their community's "arbitrary decision" to teach it.
Realistically speaking, you can't honestly have one without the other (unless, for instance, you're a spiritualist that rejects the current direction your base religion is heading, which I wouldn't blame you for). If I asked you how a human was to go about following morality in a way that couldn't possibly anger God, you would likely respond with something along the lines of following the teachings of the Bible. Problem is, that's a book that was written by humans, and is the global basis for the Christian religion. That is to say, the morality taught by the Bible, which is supposedly objective, is something that only applies directly to Christians (and Christian literalists/Pharisees, at that). Adding to that, the Christian God is the same god that Jews and Muslims worship, and yet I've seen many faithful Christians call members of those religions immoral, God-hating pigs. If God's morality was objective, would it not be consistent for all of his followers, no matter how they worship? And what of the other various gods that other cultures worship?

That's also without touching your comment on gravity existing even if we don't understand how it works; yes, you're correct, except that for a force to be scientifically recognized, you have to be able to reliably observe it in action, and you can't ethically teach anything about it that you can't prove. For an example, try to look up much of anything about how magnetic forces actually work (not what they do, how they do it). You're not going to find to much as there's still a LOT we don't know about them, because they're difficult to study in motion and even the people who have spent decades in the field (ba dum tss) don't even begin to fully understand them. Similarly, you can't simply assert something about how God functions without evidence to back that up; I have no objections with you believing that God is behind Creation, or that you feel that God is guiding you through your life to help you make the choices that are best for you. But to posit that God is the objective moral law for every living creature would require a pretty strong thesis as to when you've observed that to be the case.

That's like saying we don't need to actually like a video game because we keep playing it and we have a good time doing so. And since we're having a good time, we don't need to even like the game, just need to keep playing. Playing is the source of the fun, clearly, not some "liking", get real.
Yes, that is the weirdest analogy I've ever made.
That's... a really bad analogy, because you're arguing basically the opposite of what your point is. Enjoyment of a game is subjective; look at all the praise and high ratings Zelda: Breath of the Wild received, then look at GBAtemp's review of it, for instance. If you wanted to argue that morality is to caring for each other as enjoyment is to playing video games, and morality is objective, you'd be implying that everyone would enjoy playing a game equally, regardless of actual interest in it and how much they say they like it
 

osaka35

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The word "better" has no meaning if morality is subjective, that's the point. We can say "the higher the temperature, the more water evaporates" or something, because temperature is not a matter of opinion or majority vote. But we can't say "the nicer the temperature, the more water evaporates".
Treating each other well, sure, let's go with that. I'm gonna say "treating each other well" involves forbidding abortion, aka murder of helpless children, preventing it at all costs. But a person on the political left will jump in and say "treating each other well" involves giving all women free access to abortion, because they should be able to have unprotected, irresponsible sex all they want and not suffer the natural, obvious consequences of their actions. Would you look at that, we both agree on treating each other better, how well we would get along.

Of course better has a meaning. It's a relative meaning, but a meaning. it's relative to the individual and the community, as I defined fairly clearly (I thought) with the rest of my paragraph. Some morals are pretty basic. "don't kill folk" is a lot less nuanced than "how do we ethically divide money between parties who both have valid claims", so is considered more fundamental. The more fundamental something is, the less subjective it tends to be. Yet even then there's wiggle room. If someone breaks into your house and is going to kill you, most people agree it's ethically okay to kill them first to save yourself and those around you. Pretty clear example of how even the most basic, "don't kill folks", is somewhat subjective. We don't all agree on what's "better". That's why there are ethical discussions about what laws are just, how we should change them, etc. Again, this is a whole field unto itself, and it's seriously a lot of fun to read and learn about.

With the abortion argument, you're arguing a specific case (and you're arguing using scientific knowledge from the bronze age, which is...problematic) as a way to disprove how ethics aren't subjective. It sounds like you're having trouble with working out how ethics could be subjective if we could disagree on something as "obviously immoral" to you as this. Let me start by defining how better works in ethical discussions. We can talk about the ethics of a specific case, but we define what "better" is on a case by case basis. We compare like with like, which is why better is subjective to what you're comparing. Have to define it, which is what ethical decision making is all about. In the case of abortion, we are arguing the inherent bodily rights of the mother against the inherent bodily rights of a child. Adults, talking about how both have rights, so how do we balance both their needs to minimize harm to both and maximize their human rights? Black and white statements are the opposite of careful consideration, and do much to nullify actual ethics. Your biblical thinking is pretty anti-ethical in its methodology, and doesn't work at all in this case as far as ethical consequences. The crux of the matter is when is a baby an actual baby? When it's still in the "blueprints" phases where literally nothing human has been built by the mother's body (your position)? Or until it has a brain, the blueprints are mostly done changing to their environment, and most of the baby has been built(most non-religious, scientifically informed folk)?

You're also, I'm guessing, introducing law into this, which is considered a separate topic than ethics. Ethics are used in the creation of laws, but they aren't the same thing. I suppose that's a big one to keep in mind. But basically, you used the assumption your personal perception of a god is the correct one as evidence your god is the correct one, so therefore, ethics comes from him. You're talking in circles.

The rest of your text against sex is just religious dogma and has nothing to do with ethics. Just personal prejudice.

Physical reason = we care about each other.
Let me unpack what you said. We care about each other therefore we treat each other well therefore we don't need objective morality to treat each other well.
Except objective morality is the source of "we care about each other". We are moral therefore we care about each other therefore we treat each other well therefore we think we don't need objective morality to treat each other well.
That's like saying we don't need to actually like a video game because we keep playing it and we have a good time doing so. And since we're having a good time, we don't need to even like the game, just need to keep playing. Playing is the source of the fun, clearly, not some "liking", get real.
Yes, that is the weirdest analogy I've ever made.

that's circular reasoning as well. You have to explain WHY it's objective rather than "it is objective, so therefore it's objective". You have to dig deeper and question why something is the case, rather than just accept something is a way because it's always been that way. As far as your example goes, playing is the action, liking is the personal assessment of the action. We are the ones creating the meaning based on the actions we take. The game is not inherently fun, it's fun based on whether the actions we take are ones we like. So...yes? no? I didn't really get your analogy.
 
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