Gaming [Poll] Do you think hackers deserve to play Pokémon competitively? Why or why not?

What do you think?

  • Yes

    Votes: 200 64.3%
  • No

    Votes: 111 35.7%

  • Total voters
    311
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CreAtor135

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I love the shitstorm this subject usually makes. Oh well, opinion time.

Genning pokemon has been around since the dawn of online Pokemon play. It's a thing that just happens, and with the advancements in Pokemon itself, so too do the tools improve. However, reading the first few pages, I would like to address a few things.

The "equal footing" argument. I don't believe it really applies to Pokemon, or "cheating" in videogames in general. Now I, myself, am one of the people who actually take the time to bother with breeding and such. It's something I can do when I'm bored. I don't particularly enjoy it, but even so, I still do it. Why? Because even preparation is part of the actual game. It's not like Pokemon is centered around battles alone. At some point, however, the idea was started that it's fine because everyone can do it. Here's the thing, though, not everyone can. Just like not everyone can play the game 2 weeks in advance. It's just giving yourself an early start. Imagine if you were racing speedruns with someone in a game. One player starts 2 hours in advance, but the other is allowed to use glitches to catch up to the other player. In the end, the results are similar, but one person just has a comfortable lead, and that's exactly what genning does. It allows a certain portion of players to start early and have a lead as opposed to other players, who are still playing catch-up with the current metagame.

The odd thing about it is that the players don't even truly have equal footing to begin with. As it currently stands, not everyone has access to homebrew, and thus it gives the players who do have homebrew an advantage in time. A lot of you only consider that "you only have the data earlier", and while that is true, Gen VII metagame is still a developing meta. While you're allowing the meta to evolve faster like this, players who don't gen their pokemon (or are unable to) may not be able to keep up due to advancements happening faster than they can keep up with. To address the same argument made using smash, it would be the same thing as being able to try out a patch early. You already know the new data, and have been able to gain experience with it. You're learning the new meta already, while another player is stuck with data and may still need the experience. Again, it's a developing meta, thus giving yourself a time advantage is still giving yourself an advantage. Footing can't be equal using genned Pokemon until the meta has settled down.

While it's probably important to certain people to "skip the boring stuff to get to competitive", I like to think that, if other people finally get their hard-earned shiny 4-5IV Pokemon, it may be a bit disheartening to them that another player had to click about 10 times and scan a QR code to achieve the same result, or better. In this case, it is ruining an aspect of another's game through means beyond the realms of what is possible in the game itself. I'm not saying the Pokemon is illegit, just that the clicks are not done in-game, so it technically should not exist there as of yet.

That being said, I'm not completely against the tools either, I would just keep them out of a competition. It may be good to use them to check if a team would work before devoting time into said team, just like how some people prefer CFW just to be able to demo games before they buy. It's still something that you probably shouldn't be doing, but atleast it's not morally wrong... mostly.

That aside, I really do question why people still feel the need to gen in VII. Hyper Training makes having a 6IV extremely easy, and then to reduce further grind you can put that on a ditto to reduce that grind. Then there's the mechanics developed in gen VI... They're trying to make it as easy as possible so that everyone doesn't have to do it. It takes less than two hours to get your perfect pokemon if you play your cards correctly. Why the hell would you even need genned pokemon at this point?
Well if it's as easy as you say then what room is there to complain? The biggest problem with people, like I said, is that you(a general you) can devalue their hours of breeding and rngabusing with just a couple of clicks. But, this isn't like a Smash brothers tournament or anything. This is the Pokemon competitive scene and like you said, it's a preparation based event. Time doesn't play into it at this point because everyone at one of those things will have the same kind of Pokémon as any genner. Even these 6IVs everyone wants has been made extremely simple. At that what can you say? That your opponent had more time to prepare? Lol sure Jan.
 

gnmmarechal

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They do deserve it, imo.

As long as the Pokémon are legal, it's fine by me. I mean, what matters in the VGC, imo, is who can think of the best team and best way to win and actually do it. Not who spent the most time breeding Pokémon until they randomly got what they wanted.
 

ShinyLatios

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Oh, goddamn Game Freak, they had to do that with hyper training IVs? well that's one argument removed. It's still easy as hell, though. As for the eggs, there's not really a circle route but eggs hatch crazy fast anyways. If you know where to look, bottle caps aren't really a problem, but I admit that they are scarcer than I had hoped they would be.

Obviously devoted time is a factor, and some people are plainly better than others. This is true. However, some players (such as myself) learn more from experience, and generally can't keep up when the meta evolves faster than they can work with. It's the reason why I'm personally just waiting until it settles down a bit. I don't gen, and with my reliance on experience, I can't keep up. It's a bit disheartening, but I can't do much about it.

It also doesn't help that I am European and already had to wait.

This is the Pokemon competitive scene and like you said, it's a preparation based event. Time doesn't play into it at this point because everyone at one of those things will have the same kind of Pokémon as any genner. Even these 6IVs everyone wants has been made extremely simple. At that what can you say? That your opponent had more time to prepare? Lol sure Jan.

Once the meta settles, you're absolutely right. However, in an evolving metagame, an opponent having more time to prepare means more time to adapt, and thus the genning player does have an advantage. If it were about gen VI, then by all means, that game has been explored to hell and back, and everyone has had the time to get their breeding on. VGC '17 meta, however, is still developing, so preparation time IS essential.
 

HuskyXD

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Oh, goddamn Game Freak, they had to do that with hyper training IVs? well that's one argument removed. It's still easy as hell, though. As for the eggs, there's not really a circle route but eggs hatch crazy fast anyways. If you know where to look, bottle caps aren't really a problem, but I admit that they are scarcer than I had hoped they would be.

Obviously devoted time is a factor, and some people are plainly better than others. This is true. However, some players (such as myself) learn more from experience, and generally can't keep up when the meta evolves faster than they can work with. It's the reason why I'm personally just waiting until it settles down a bit. I don't gen, and with my reliance on experience, I can't keep up. It's a bit disheartening, but I can't do much about it.

It also doesn't help that I am European and already had to wait.



Once the meta settles, you're absolutely right. However, in an evolving metagame, an opponent having more time to prepare means more time to adapt, and thus the genning player does have an advantage. If it were about gen VI, then by all means, that game has been explored to hell and back, and everyone has had the time to get their breeding on. VGC '17 meta, however, is still developing, so preparation time IS essential.


That's why we have pokemon showdown to create teams on the fly and test them out before making them in real game.
 

ShinyLatios

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That's why we have pokemon showdown to create teams on the fly and test them out before making them in real game.

Indeed we do. On the topic of tournament plays though, it does beg the question why the pokemon community generally doesn't want to spend a few hours to create a team. It's an official tournament with large prizes, the least we could do is have a little respect and play by their rules?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

RustInPeace

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Oh, goddamn Game Freak, they had to do that with hyper training IVs?

I had to search to be sure, Serebii's description was confusing at first, but yeah, to better explain it, hyper training raises the stats to look like you had max IVs, but the truth is you don't. In the breeding sense, hyper train offsprings, don't hyper train parents. Thinking back they've done this before. IV judge, helpful but then you have to remember what the phrases mean, and they aren't the exact numbers anyways. If he doesn't say your stat can't be better, you still have to find out what that IV is through memory and/or searching and PKHex. There's always a tradeoff with them.

That's why we have pokemon showdown to create teams on the fly and test them out before making them in real game.

They were on that day 1 in Japan and Australia, which was a day before US got it, already there's a Gen 7 OU and stuff, Complete Forme Zygarde has already been banned to Ubers, it's crazy.

Indeed we do. On the topic of tournament plays though, it does beg the question why the pokemon community generally doesn't want to spend a few hours to create a team. It's an official tournament with large prizes, the least we could do is have a little respect and play by their rules?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm curious if the winners of those tournaments gen, because I really don't know.
 

Xiphiidae

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IV judge, helpful but then you have to remember what the phrases mean, and they aren't the exact numbers anyways. If he doesn't say your stat can't be better, you still have to find out what that IV is through memory and/or searching and PKHex.
I suppose this also raises the question if it's wrong to use PKHeX to check a Pokémon's otherwise hidden stats.
 

ShinyLatios

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I'm curious if the winners of those tournaments gen, because I really don't know.

The general pattern is they either gen, or know someone who does it for them. As for Game Freak... few steps forward, few steps back every damn time.

I suppose this also raises the question if it's wrong to use PKHeX to check a Pokémon's otherwise hidden stats.

Considering you can calculate IVs with minimum effort anyways, I don't feel like this is wrong. It's not even that much faster.
 

RustInPeace

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I suppose this also raises the question if it's wrong to use PKHeX to check a Pokémon's otherwise hidden stats.

It's quicker, same thing as genning, quicker, but not wrong, in my opinion. You can use IV calculators and learn stats from pokemon to determine IVs, today and in the past. Not to mention now with hyper training, it also analyzes IVs, but like the Judge, it gives phrases, and those phrases are of a certain range. Like one phrase means 26-30 for example. Hyper Training, if the pokemon is only for battling, it's awesome, and with legendaries who don't breed, awesome. But then egg move passing and breeding? Not awesome, a lot of the competitive dex mons I have, I also use to pass down egg moves. Just now, passing down my Scizor's Agility to a Skorupi, along with its perfect IVs. That's great, but essentially hyper training doesn't come exactly at the level of breeding, when it should've. Breeding should be for egg moves and ball passing, hyper training does the rest, that'd be ideal, but it's not like that unfortunately. Anyways, can't complain all the time, having the hacking tools and such.

Another thing, SOS chaining apparently maxes out at 4IVs, is Ditto an SOS possible one? 4IVs is better than nothing, though it could be like DexNav chaining, where the max is 3 stars, 3IVs, but you can catch a 4-6IV one if you're really lucky.
 

Abrakadabra

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It's quicker, same thing as genning, quicker, but not wrong, in my opinion. You can use IV calculators and learn stats from pokemon to determine IVs, today and in the past. Not to mention now with hyper training, it also analyzes IVs, but like the Judge, it gives phrases, and those phrases are of a certain range. Like one phrase means 26-30 for example. Hyper Training, if the pokemon is only for battling, it's awesome, and with legendaries who don't breed, awesome. But then egg move passing and breeding? Not awesome, a lot of the competitive dex mons I have, I also use to pass down egg moves. Just now, passing down my Scizor's Agility to a Skorupi, along with its perfect IVs. That's great, but essentially hyper training doesn't come exactly at the level of breeding, when it should've. Breeding should be for egg moves and ball passing, hyper training does the rest, that'd be ideal, but it's not like that unfortunately. Anyways, can't complain all the time, having the hacking tools and such.

Another thing, SOS chaining apparently maxes out at 4IVs, is Ditto an SOS possible one? 4IVs is better than nothing, though it could be like DexNav chaining, where the max is 3 stars, 3IVs, but you can catch a 4-6IV one if you're really lucky.

That's my beef with GF in SuMo, they can't think of any other way to make the Pokemon endgame fun by 2016, that they still have to fall back to the lazy method of crappy RNG grind + info obfuscation galore. FFS, why can't we even see stat changes in battle in bloody Gen 7 besides the textbox? Is designing a UI really that hard?

That said, I have only bought the games just for the main storyline and never bothered with the endgame unless it's available on an emulator.
 
Last edited by Abrakadabra,

RedBlueGreen

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Once the meta settles, you're absolutely right. However, in an evolving metagame, an opponent having more time to prepare means more time to adapt, and thus the genning player does have an advantage. If it were about gen VI, then by all means, that game has been explored to hell and back, and everyone has had the time to get their breeding on. VGC '17 meta, however, is still developing, so preparation time IS essential.
Pokémon Showdown is a thing that can easily help you prepare regardless of if you gen or not. It's nobody else's fault if you don't use the tools available.
 

LuxerWap

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IV judge, helpful but then you have to remember what the phrases mean, and they aren't the exact numbers anyways. If he doesn't say your stat can't be better, you still have to find out what that IV is through memory and/or searching and PKHex. There's always a tradeoff with them.
Actually, the IV Judge in this game is way much helpful than the previous instalments. After you hatch about 20 Eggs (which isn't that difficult), you talk to him at the Battle Tree, and hell give you the Judge option for your PC, which means that I can check the IV status of every Pokémon that's in my box. I thought that if a Pokémon have all 6IVs, it's good. Lol, nope. IV Judge says that most of its stats are decent.
 

vexhash

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The fact that "fair" cheats are accepted by bigger part of this community saddens me. Since gen 4 I used to spend hours on getting shinies and 5 iv mons (I'm not complaining about waste of my time, I actually had fun doing it (also it didn't take that much time, about 2-3 hours a day)), but now all of this is achievable in 5 minutes... I honestly see no reason to continue playing post game like this. Is there even a point aside your perfect mons competitive battles?
I'm trying to say that about 4-5 years ago having shinies or perfect iv mons was an actual achievement of some sorts and now it basically means nothing. Oh well, shame on you, Game Freak.
 
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RustInPeace

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Is there even a point aside your perfect mons competitive battles?

Not really, but it's fun to battle, whether with people or trying to 1-up the slanted AI. Slanted as in they always have the advantage, even back in the Battle Tower days, the AI's side is favored over the human player. One time I got to the Frontier Brain of Battle Hall in Platinum, the one where you battle one of every type, and have to clear 10 types to face the Brain for the first time. Well, Garchomp was slaying, of course take care of the types that its weak against first like Ice and Dragon, and then Dark (Weavile) and Water (Kingdra). Awesome, but then this bitch brings an Azelf that tricked the Flame Orb on me! I was dead in the water, I hoped for critical hits, but nothing came, 2HKO, I never played that facility again, it was devastating. So all this complaining of the PvP aspect, sometimes the AI in the battle facilities are cruel. Which is why Maison and Tree get a bit of a nod because they allow you to change your teams without breaking your streak, I feel like the more you battle with one team, the more likely they'll blatantly have pokemon that are super effective against it.

Something not discussed is the QR rental teams. While the feature won't be implemented until January, this nerfs the time argument, because if players are allowed to share their teams, then that gives people the chance to try out without breeding. One time usage sure, but it's basically GameFreak's way for legit players to essentially take a shortcut.
 
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