Peace...

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phuzzz

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I second it. None of us are convincing either side, and we're getting to a point to where we are just repeating ourselves. There's no more of a point to this argument.

The fact of the matter is this: we are/will be at war. This war will have people dying, wars usually do that. Let's just hope that the kill count won't be any higher than it has to be.
 

dpm14

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I find it funny that when I feel the conflict is justified, I get criticized for being brain-washed by the propaganda my country puts out... I really hope you guys realize that I could very well make the same accusation. Just as our media focuses on terrorists yours focuses on the hate of the U.S. and how it has no good motives at all. There may be a few alterior motives here, but for a dictator who has done nothing but stall and even hide from diplomacy, I see no other option.

Another thing to consider: I see a lot of why didn't we finish this off years ago. I think this is for the same reasons you want peace, and now we regret giving Saddam a second chance. You want us to give him a third chance and get pissed at us. I won't hesitate to admit to the government making mistakes in the past. The important thing to realize is that none of your countries are right as they have all made mistakes as well. Germany being two world wars, Britain with it's bad approach of maintaining it's colonies, France with it's colonies (though how it ever got colonies I'll never know), the dutch with their colonies, Spain and their colonies, squabbling over rights to land in countries that are smaller than Rhode Island... You wish to make out the US as a bad guy because of it's history, well, don't point out the splinter when you have a board in your own eye. (Actually, it's more of a board in all the eyes, but then I wouldn't get the bible reference...)

I do however wish an expiditious resolution to this conflict and hope we are able to set up a regime that will better protect it's people and serve them instead of kill them. We may have been wrong and sold our weapons to the wrong people, but we are just capitalists like the rest of you. People give us money, we give them product and at the time we just thought it was for defense. Afghanistan was a different story. They were being invaded by the USSR so naturally we gave the people who we thought had the best chance of defending the place weapons. It achieved our goal then, but came back to haunt us later.

Having a world military may seem like a good idea, but really stop and think who the world military is now. The U.S. The security council may need some adjustments (personally at least double the amount of countries should be represented) but in the end, we will still be the police force and it will be no different. We have acted without world approval before (as have all your countries) and acting again, although regrettable we have to enforce U.N. resolutions by ourselves, it is neccesary.
 

SMN

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I agree with phuzzz, this kind of debate/argument just doesn't get anywhere. It will get longer than the war itself.

Just pray for people who died to go to heaven, people who are innoccent to this war not to die and nothing else besides this war occurs anywhere on earth.

And peace to you guys on this issue !!!
 
L

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war is never needed
i don't know why some of you want war so badly
but the economy is not going up.
instead it's going down. (yes it's still going down =p )
and this war isn't helping anything.
 
L

Light

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war is never needed
i don't know why some of you want war so badly
but the economy is not going up.
instead it's going down. (yes it's still going down =p )
and this war isn't helping anything.
 

monkey

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Thanks everyone (especially Tempest) for all of the well-written responses here.

But I have to admit I do support intervention of some kind. That's always been my opinion although yesterday I would have said we needed more reasons than we currently have to go in. But today I'd say we have enough reasons already -- I watched a documentary from 2000 on PBS (for those of you not in the US, PBS is the national public TV system, and as such it is somewhat outside of corporate and political influence, so I tend to give what it shows a little more credence than other things on TV) last night and it reminded me of a bunch of things that I had forgotten about (50,000+ killed putting down the post-Gulf War 1 uprising, etc.). A lot of it is more or less our fault too but he's done plenty of his own initiative with what we set him up with (not to mention 12 years now of ignoring UN mandates). So now more than before I do support international intervention.

But that's exactly the problem, it needs to be INTERNATIONAL intervention, not the way we did it. It's not such an immediate problem (like it was with the first Gulf War when he was actively invading another country) that it couldn't have waited for more inspections, diplomacy, etc. It's not worth tossing out our international reputation, the UN, and alliances with most of Europe in order to go in now rather than later. The US has become the world's policemen over the last 20 years, and that's fine. We do have one of the most sophisticated -- and more importantly, by far the most moblie (aircraft carriers, tomahawks, etc.) -- armies in the world, and when international opinion decides that some sort of action is necessary, I have no problem with us being the lead country on that. We can also afford it more than many other countries financially.

But in being the policemen we've become like rogue cops lately, acting without proper oversight and in gray areas legally, and that's what I'm really opposed to.

But you're right, end of debate, bring on the peace please. Now that it's started let's hope it's done quickly and with as much care as possible for the innocent people caught up in the middle of it.

Good debate, (almost) everyone.
 
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Phriik

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Er Monkey, the current coalition thats involved in the "Iraq War" has 40 nations. That seems pretty international to me.

I too will follow others examples and not post futher on this thread.

Phriik
 

dpm14

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But that's exactly the problem, it needs to be INTERNATIONAL intervention, not the way we did it. It's not such an immediate problem (like it was with the first Gulf War when he was actively invading another country) that it couldn't have waited for more inspections, diplomacy, etc. It's not worth tossing out our international reputation, the UN, and alliances with most of Europe in order to go in now rather than later. The US has become the world's policemen over the last 20 years, and that's fine. We do have one of the most sophisticated -- and more importantly, by far the most moblie (aircraft carriers, tomahawks, etc.) -- armies in the world, and when international opinion decides that some sort of action is necessary, I have no problem with us being the lead country on that. We can also afford it more than many other countries financially.

But in being the policemen we've become like rogue cops lately, acting without proper oversight and in gray areas legally, and that's what I'm really opposed to.

I think the main problems is we tried the diplomacy and inspections route for 12 years. Our spy pictures, which I do believe have at least some truth in them show Saddam or his underlings moving and hiding stuff before U.N. inspections. The sheer fact that the U.N. cannot just randomly inspect places but must let Iraq know plenty in advance it really just causes U.N. policy to shoot itself in the foot.

I'll admit, we as a country do have a good deal to work on, and some of that includes out image and the way we treat other countries. But also, the rest of the world needs to understand the true purpose of the U.N. and make it an effective tool and enforce it's decisions. I know the Hitler example gets very largely shot down, but you need to look before he ever invaded countries. He was arming his country up with "Weapons of Mass destruction" or at least stuff he was forbidden to have after the first world war. It could have stopped there, but it didn't. Europe used the policy of diplomacy and appeasement and the US just tried to stay the hell out. The US learned that staying the hell out doesn't work. When will you learn that after 12 years of failed and hindered diplomacy that obviously diplomacy will not work?

But as I said before, I wish all those involved to be able to survive this time of hardship, and I hope the matter is resolved quickly.
 

QwertyGerty

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As it was stated, Iraq is developing biological weapons. Scientists who defected confirmed this. They have labs under hospitals, for security, so if someone bombs the labs they'll take out a hospital and Sadaam will turn around and call us monsters. Biological weapons are more dangerous than chemical, since it likely will spread wherever there's an airport. Smallpox is a danger, I heard that there would be about 1/3 fatality if that was used, and it's very contagious. I'm not really pro-war, but people who are "peace 'n' love, anti-war" don't seem informed. War is never good, but sometimes it's best not to wait and hope for the best.
 

Octavious

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to all yal peeps and playas, or not, lol
I just wanna apologize for coming off as a hard ass.
I am open minded for this war and I just am a little angry about solution 9's stereotype of americans and their view. I also want to say to temptest and all others who are wondering, I dont and a lot of americans dont support all reasons of this war. I DONT SUPPORT A FEW BUT THEY DO NEED LIBERATED. once again i appologize for coming off as a hard ass it had been a VERY long day and i was in a pissy mood. Well, is it just me or are we starting our own war on this site? Le me be the first to say why cant we get along on the internet? I mean ya my pissant mood might have started some of it but
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I really think we need to respect others view on this subject. I apologize to every one for my actions and Solution 9, Ill try to see where your coming from. SORRY 2 ALL
 

TackleTenn0rzTen

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I'm really noone to speak of this, since I know too little about why the war is going on, and why it should and why it shouldn't, but I've always asked myself, since Saddam truly is a badarse; don't the US have resources/manpower enough to form some kind of elite team to just assassin Saddam? Let it take a year, hell, let it take 10 years (unless Saddam would launch something nasty within that timeperiod), just kill the bad guy! I've heard he has many look-alikes, and that no one knows where he is, but hell.. it should absolutely not be impossible, just work with recon and assailance and assassinate the bitch!

Maybe it is a question about oil, I do not know, and everyone is saying different thing so I will never ever know what to think of this war/situation
 

dpm14

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laugh.gif
Â
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It looks like New Years Eve in Baghdad right nowÂ
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Must be one heck of a party.

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Whoop!

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Disclaimer

A U.S. Marine replaces the Iraqi flag at the entrance to Iraq (news - web sites)'s main port of Umm Qasr on March 21, 2003 with the Stars and Stripes and the flag of the Marine Corps. Marines briefly raised the U.S. flag over Umm Qasr after facing tougher than expected resistance in and around the southern Iraq port. Some time later, the flag was removed. No reason was given for the decision, but Washington has consistently stressed that invading U.S. forces want to liberate Iraq, not occupy it. (Desmond Boylan/Reuters)
 
I

io6

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This is for those of you who are too ignorant for your own good. the is not an opinion, or a thought, but rather a list of facts. No personal thoughts are involved:

Yes, the arab country of palestine is now israel. what people worldwide seem to be forgetting is that in the original UN decision, 2 countries, one arab and one jewish, shall be formed. Once this was announced, the arabs (palestinians, egyptians, syrians, lebanese and jordanians) attacked the fledgeling country. So israel suffered heavy casualties, but drove the attacking forces back, and eventualy conquered some arab land.

now, 50 years after Israel defended itself, the arabs want everything back again. Israel is willing to co-exist with an arab state. The arabs are the ones that are unwilling. The arabs are the ones that are sending suicide bombers into resteraunts and busses and bus stops and train station. Israel is under an attack by terrorists and is therefore retaliating against those that send the terrorists.

as for Iraq - what the doodley-fuck does a piss ass dictator need with bio/chem/nuke weapons ? who is he going to use them against ? and why should his people suffer for it ? they live like fucking hobos without knowing what goes on in the real world.
Think about it this way: all politicians are assholes trying to get support from the people who they supposedly represant (people like Bush, Blair and evenr Sharon). Saddam on the other hand - takes from the people and does what he thinks is the best, and the people be damned, and when someone opposes him, he simply kills them off !
in conclusion - there is no good reason to kill people. And in jewish faith, there is nothing more important then human life. But if someone is going to try and kill shitloads of people, we, as human beings, have to try to save as many as possible.

think about it
 

norberto

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here is something that was emailed to me that is so true about anti war protesters in hollywood.

SORRY for the long read, but its worth it. (Ididdnt write this.)


This is rather long, but it is an outstanding and interesting article. Worth reading.

WHO'S SMARTER? (by Cindy Osborne)
The Hollywood group is at it again. Holding antiwar rallies, screaming about the Bush Administration, running ads in major newspapers, defaming the President and his Cabinet every chance they get, to anyone and everyone who will listen. They publicly defile them and call them names like "stupid," "morons," and Jessica Lange went so far as to tell a crowd in Spain that she hates President Bush and is embarrassed to be an American.

So, just how ignorant are these people who are running the country? Let's look at the biographies of these "Stupid," "ignorant," "moronic" leaders, and then at the celebrities who are castigating them:

President George W. Bush: Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard. He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986. He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. In a historic reelection victory, he became the first Texas Governor to be elected to consecutive four-year terms on November 3, 1998, winning 68.6 percent of the vote. In 1998 Governor Bush won 49 percent of the Hispanic vote, 27 percent of the African-American vote, 27 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of women. He won more Texas counties, 240 of 254, than any modern Republican other than Richard Nixon in 1972 and is the first Republican gubernatorial candidate to win the heavily Hispanic and Democratic border counties of El Paso, Cameron and Hidalgo. (Someone began circulating a false story about his IQ being lower than any other President. If you believed it, you might want to go to URBANLEGENDS.COM and see the truth!)

Vice President Dick Cheney: Earned a BA in 1965 and a MA in 1966, both in political science. Two years later, he won an American Political Science Association congressional fellowship. One of Vice President Cheney's primary duties is to share with individuals, members of Congress and foreign leaders, President Bush's vision to strengthen our economy, secure our homeland and win the War on Terrorism. In his official role as President of the Senate, Vice President Cheney regularly goes to Capitol Hill to meet with Senators and members of the House of Representatives to work on the Administration's legislative goals. In his travels as Vice President, he has seen first hand the great demands the war on terrorism is placing on the men and women of our military, and he is proud of the tremendous job they are doing for the United States of America.

Secretary of State Colin Powell: Educated in the New York City public schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology. He also participated in ROTC at CCNY and received a commission as an Army second lieutenant upon graduation in June 1958. His further academic achievements include a Master of Business Administration Degree from George Washington University. Secretary Powell is the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations. Secretary Powell's civilian awards include two Presidential Medals of Freedom, the President's Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Secretary of State Distinguished Service Medal, and the Secretary of Energy Distinguished Service Medal. Several schools and other institutions have been named in his honor and he holds honorary degrees from universities and colleges across the country. (Note: He retired as Four Star General in the United States Army)

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: Attended Princeton University on Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator; Congressional Assistant to Rep. Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59; U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69; Assistant to the President, Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Director of the Cost of Living Council, 1969-74; U.S. Ambassador to NATO, 1973-74; head of Presidential Transition Team, 1974; Assistant to the President, Director of White House Office of Operations, White House Chief of Staff, 1974-77; Secretary of Defense, 1975-77.

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge: Raised in a working class family in veterans' public housing in Erie. He earned a scholarship to Harvard, graduating with honors in 1967. After his first year at The Dickinson School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor. After returning to Pennsylvania, he earned his Law Degree and was in private practice before becoming Assistant District Attorney in Erie County. He was elected to Congress in 1982. He was the first enlisted Vietnam combat veteran elected to the U.S. House, and was overwhelmingly reelected six times.

National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice: Earned her Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. (Note: Rice enrolled at the University of Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science (Cum Laude.) She earned a Master's Degree at the University of Notre Dame and a Doctorate from the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are also in Political Science. She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995. At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions. From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender--Integrated Training in the Military. She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula. In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco. Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Al , She resides in Washington, D.C.

So who are these celebrities? What is their education? What is their experience in affairs of State or in National Security? While I will defend to the death their right to express their opinions, I think that if they are going to call into question the intelligence of our leaders, we should also have all the facts on their eductions and background:

Barbara Streisand: Completed high school
Career: Singing and acting

Cher: Dropped out of school in 9th grade
Career: Singing and acting

Martin Sheen: Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton
Career: Acting

Jessica Lange: Dropped out college mid-freshman year
Career: Acting

Alec Baldwin: Dropped out of George Washington U. after a scandal.
Career: Acting

Julia Roberts: Completed high school
Career: Acting

Sean Penn: Completed High school
Career: Acting

Susan Sarandon: Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.
Career: Acting

Ed Asner; Completed High school
Career: Acting

George Clooney: Dropped out of University of Kentucky
Career: Acting

Michael Moore: Dropped out first year University of Michigan
Career: Movie Director

Sarah Jessica Parker
Career: Acting

Jennifer Anniston: Completed High School
Career: Acting

Mike Farrell:
Career: Acting

Janeane Garofelo: Dropped out of College
Career: Stand up comedienne and actor

Larry Hagman: Attended Bard College for one year
Career: Acting

While comparing the education and experience of these two groups, we should also remember that President Bush and his cabinet are briefed daily, even hourly, on the War on Terror and threats to our security. They are privy to information gathered around the world concerning the Middle East, the threats to America, the intentions of terrorists and terrorist-supporting governments. They are in constant communication with the CIA, the FBI, Interpol, NATO, The United Nations, our own military, and that of our allies around the world. We cannot simply believe that we have full knowledge of the threats because we watch CNN!! We cannot believe that we are in any way as informed as our leaders.

These celebrities have no intelligence-gathering agents, no fact-finding groups, no insight into the minds of those who would destroy our country. They only have a deep seated hatred for all things Republican. By nature, and no one knows quite why, the Hollywood elitists detest Conservative views and anything that supports or uplifts the United States of America. The silence was deafening from the Left when Bill Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical factory outside of Khartoum, or when he attacked the Bosnian Serbs in 1995 and 1999. He bombed Serbia itself to get Slobodan Milosevic out of Kosovo, and not a single peace rally was held. When our Rangers were ambushed in Somalia and 18 young American lives were lost, not a peep was heard from Hollywood. Yet now, after our nation has been attacked on its own soil, after 3,000 Americans were killed, by freedom-hating terrorists, while going about their routine lives, they want to hold rallies against the war. Why the change? Because an honest, God-fearing Republican sits in the White House.

Another irony is that in 1987, when Ronald Reagan was in office, the Hollywood group aligned themselves with disarmament groups like SANE, FREEZE and PEACE ACTION, urging our own government to disarm and freeze the manufacturing of any further nuclear weapons, in order to promote world peace. It is curious that now, even after we have heard all the evidence that Saddam Hussein has chemical, biological and is very close to obtaining nuclear weapons, their is no cry from this group for HIM to disarm. They believe we should leave him alone in his quest for these weapons of mass destruction, even though it is certain that these deadly weapons will eventually be used against us in our own cities.

So why the hype out of Hollywood? Could these celebrities believe that since they draw such astronomical salaries, they are entitled to also determine the course of our Nation? That they can make viable decisions concerning war and peace? Did Michael Moore have the backing of the Nation when he recently thanked France, on our behalf, for being a "good enough friend to tell us we were wrong"? I know for certain he was not speaking for me. Does Sean Penn fancy himself a Diplomat, in going to Iraq when we are just weeks away from war? Does he believe that his High School Diploma gives him the knowledge (and the right) to go to a country that is controlled by a maniacal dictator, and speak on behalf of the American people? Or is it the fact that he pulls in more money per year than the average American worker will see in a lifetime? Does his bank account give him clout?

The ultimate irony is that many of these celebrities have made a shambles of their own lives, with drug abuse, alcoholism, numerous marriages and divorces, scrapes with the law, publicized temper tantrums, etc. How dare they pretend to know what is best for an entire nation! What is even more bizarre is how many people in this country will listen and accept their views, simply because they liked them in a certain movie, or have fond memories of an old television sitcom!

It is time for us, as citizens of the United States, to educate ourselves about the world around us. If future generations are going to enjoy the freedoms that our forefathers bequeathed us, if they are ever to know peace in their own country and their world, to live without fear of terrorism striking in their own cities, we must assure that this nation remains strong. We must make certain that those who would destroy us are made aware of the severe consequences that will befall them.

Yes, it is a wonderful dream to sit down with dictators and terrorists and join hands, singing Cumbaya and talking of world peace. But it is not real. We did not stop Adolph Hitler from taking over the entire continent of Europe by simply talking to him. We sent our best and brightest, with the strength and determination that this Country is known for, and defeated the Nazi regime. President John F. Kennedy did not stop the Soviet ships from unloading their nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962 with mere words. He stopped them with action, and threat of immediate war if the ships did not turn around. We did not end the Cold War with conferences. It ended with the strong belief of President Ronald Reagan...PEACE through STRENGTH


God bless America and all the men and women who are fighting for our freedom in the US Arm Forces!!!

As a footnote: AOL recently did a very non scientific poll asking their users if movie stars affected their beliefs. The response....97% said movie stars had no effect on their beliefs.

Oh yeah.... Colin Powell was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff...2 terms
ohmy.gif
 

Vanguarde

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Ok then Tempest let me tell you what right we have.

1: The United States of America is the most powerful nation in the world, and the last superpower left.

2: The United States of America is not driven by hatred like Nazi Germany was, but by peace. We just want to insure no one gets attacked.

3: We feel only responsible countries, such as the United States of America deserve to keep Weapons of Mass Destruction. We would never use them the way Al Quaeda and Saddam would.

4: Since you seem to be so anti war, how about we do this for you. I will personally buy you an apartment on the 90th floor of the Sears tower. It's yours. Then we stop the war, let Al Quaea build up, and remove all security and put it back the way it was before 9/11. Have fun when they plane comes then!


5: Canada does nothing in the world, that is why no one really hates them or attacks them. We in the United States are pioneers, we seek to make ourselves better all the time and to make the world as a whole better.

6: And finally, the fact of the matter is we will not sit back and do nothing while we take terrorists attacks. We are not that kind of people anymore ; we used to be, and it gave us September 11th, 2001. It will never happen again.

7: Liberating Iraq, North Korea, Syria, Iran, etc will be the best thing to ever happen to those countries - they will have true freedom with no fear of secret police taking family members away to be killed, raped, tortured, etc. They will have the right to speak their mind, which they do not now. I find it amusing you flaunt you right to speak your mind, yet by saying we should not help these people, in a way you are saying they don't deserve the same right you have; the ability to have freedom of speech. How dare you sir.. how dare you.


- Angry in NYC
 

Flea

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It´s enough Vanguarde!
and - like allways-- mr american peacemaker/peacekeeper:

THERE IS NO SPEECH ABOUT VIETNAM!

Did you free those people? NO! You fried them with napalm!
And you tell me the superpower of the united states deserves to own mass destruction weapons?
NO YOU DON´T!
The american army is on the best way to start ww3...and you are not driven by peace ladys and gentlemen, you are driven by revenge and greed!
That´s it
 

Vanguarde

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Flea you don't have all of the infomation that I have, thus your comments on the issue are welcome, but in the end are meaningless. ( Like the anti-war protesters - they are more than welcome to protest - but the government does not care )

Iraq first.
North Korea second.
Iran third.
Syria fourth.

=

Peace.
 
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