Is grinding really necessary?

GeorgeFoulds

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I just got reminded of my first time playing Pokemon, where I got lost getting to one of the gym leaders, so 5 hours later when I actually got there, I was 10 levels above the Gym Leader (and any trainer's) Pokemon, meaning that I didn't have to resort to grinding.
 

Just Another Gamer

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I catch your drift. That is how I felt about the original Final Fantasy II. It seemed to consist of endless hours of grinding, connected with a half ass story that seemed to be directly ripped off from Star Wars except with a more mid-evil theme.
I've not touched many of the modern RPG's, of the ones I have there has been hardly any grinding and really low game play time, so if they are still creating games with lots of grinding and the game can carry on for a good 30 plus hours (as a good RPG should), then I would hope that most of that time is dedicated to story and character development, and actually doing things, keeping the grinding down the a comfortable minimum. Enough to make the player feel like he earned and accomplished something, but not without totally spoiling all the fun and adventure.
Sadly that is how I feel about all modern RPGs and other hybrid games. I mention only P3P because I put in 57 hours in it already and that is with cheating since it did speed things along a little but still letting me enjoy the story and can challenge myself (seriously think how long it would take if I played "properly" without the 2 cheats I used) but my problem is that you can't have a challenging game where you don't need to endlessly grind. I commend Monstergirl Quest mainly because on my first playthrough there are no random battles that are not part of the story and after you win about 3 fights you are the optimal level to fight the boss and still be challenged, its even more fun on hard mode. Sadly replaying even on hard is really easy.
 

Foxi4

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Grinding is a way bad developers inflate their game time because they're too lazy to write better stories, make new content, or make better bosses that aren't reliant on levels.
Pretty much. A "good" RPG doesn't force you to grind - it either provides alternative ways to reach various goals or adjusts itself depending on your level of experience. A good developer should either implement an automatically-adjusting difficulty level or at least playtest the game enough to know at which level players usually reach given sections of the game and adjust both the enemies and the items available in given locations according to their testimonies.

Role Playing should never focus on fetch quests or killing an "x" amount of enemies to continue, Role Playing should focus on playing roles. If there is an acceptable format of grinding then it's through meaningful and fun sidequests.
 

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I think if you have to call it grinding its not good. I think there are some balance issues with older games, but now a days, kids wont spend time on a game if it takes grinding to beat.
 
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Bake

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Eh, Persona 3 is hardly challenging, even on hard. Haven't tried PSP version so I don't know about Maniac mode. Battle system is easy exploitable. Although MegaTen games are known for their "fake difficulty" and aren't really creative.

Anyway, grinding in RPGs really isn't needed. All you have to do is come up with better strategies and actually use your mind a bit. What annoys me the most are people who ask on game boards what level should they be before fighting a certain boss. Does it really matter? Just try it for yourself and see how it goes. If it goes bad, rethink your strategy. If you're getting utterly destroyed then level a few levels but nothing hardcore. 30 mins is enough to get your levels up by a decent amount in most RPGs.

Xenosaga is a great RPG with a good difficulty. It's creative, you can't just mash your attacks and hope you deplete the bosses HP to 0. Each boss is unique and needs different strategy for defeating it. I'm talking mostly about Episode I. I haven't played Episode III yet. Episode II was still fun in my opinion but they dumbed it down.
 

XDel

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I'll put it this way, if I have to spend an hour here or there grinding in order to progress to the next level, I don't mind so much as long as that does not consume all the game play, otherwise I feel like I'm just walking into battle after battle without much worry or care in the world.

Likewise, I love the ability to grind (should you desire) for hours and hours on end, making my character super strong before I reach the next area giving me an edge I would not have otherwise. It makes things easier in the long run, but I earned it.

I guess what bothers me most about grinding, is battle after battle where I do not have to apply any sort of strategy and can just keep pressing "fight fight fight". Strategy is always nice, keeps the brain ticking.
 
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Just Another Gamer

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Eh, Persona 3 is hardly challenging, even on hard. Haven't tried PSP version so I don't know about Maniac mode. Battle system is easy exploitable. Although MegaTen games are known for their "fake difficulty" and aren't really creative.

Anyway, grinding in RPGs really isn't needed. All you have to do is come up with better strategies and actually use your mind a bit. What annoys me the most are people who ask on game boards what level should they be before fighting a certain boss. Does it really matter? Just try it for yourself and see how it goes. If it goes bad, rethink your strategy. If you're getting utterly destroyed then level a few levels but nothing hardcore. 30 mins is enough to get your levels up by a decent amount in most RPGs.

Xenosaga is a great RPG with a good difficulty. It's creative, you can't just mash your attacks and hope you deplete the bosses HP to 0. Each boss is unique and needs different strategy for defeating it. I'm talking mostly about Episode I. I haven't played Episode III yet. Episode II was still fun in my opinion but they dumbed it down.
Its the random encounters that make it boring and like you said not creative. Not to sound sarcastic but have you tried playing a RPG without grinding at all and actually can beat anything without ever grinding, cause I tried that and it doesn't matter how creative or strategic you are but that just doesn't work and unless you play on easy or very easy or use cheats like I do you can't level a few which would mean 3+ in 30 minutes. I wish it was that simple.
 

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Also, if you want a good example of fucking grinding, Tales of Innocence. You don't need to grind... Up until one fucking boss where it's a difficulty wall. Actually, fuck that, it's a difficulty acute angle. Everything else up to that point ranges from easy to fairly challenging. Except for this. People pass it off as "Yeah they all have that you just have to deal with it." Fuck that, that's horrific game design. I stopped playing because I'm not braindead and I have better things to do with my time than grind for one fucking boss.

Also Pokemon has some grinding but to its credit it's minor and the battles are designed to be quick so it's not bad.
 

Bake

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Its the random encounters that make it boring and like you said not creative. Not to sound sarcastic but have you tried playing a RPG without grinding at all and actually can beat anything without ever grinding, cause I tried that and it doesn't matter how creative or strategic you are but that just doesn't work and unless you play on easy or very easy or use cheats like I do you can't level a few which would mean 3+ in 30 minutes. I wish it was that simple.

Well if the game has random encounters I just explore the place normally and advance the story. I never run from battles, I beat every monster that I come across. Sometimes I run near the endgame if some enemies take a long time.

If I see the enemy on screen and can choose whether to attack it or not, I usually choose to attack it. I usually clear the whole map so there are no monsters on screen. If I go back to that screen again and monsters are respawned, I leave them alone unless I can't proceed to the next area without defeating them again.

I never have troubles with my levels with this way of playing.
 

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Pretty much. A "good" RPG doesn't force you to grind - it either provides alternative ways to reach various goals or adjusts itself depending on your level of experience. A good developer should either implement an automatically-adjusting difficulty level or at least playtest the game enough to know at which level players usually reach given sections of the game and adjust both the enemies and the items available in given locations according to their testimonies..
I'unno--scaling enemies to the player has had disastrous results in most games I've played. They completely invalidate any sense of exploration and accomplishment, or immersion for that matter, as you can always rely on the game bending its knee towards an incapable player, pandering a victory to the player whenever it seems said-player can't achieve it on their own.

Next to that, scaling content has the tendency to make everything in a game feel meaningless. It doesn't matter what you do or what you achieve, because everything in terms of rewards is given to you at your specific bracket of experience/progress. It completely reinforces the artificiality of the game in a negative manner, and drops you into that auto-pilot mode I mentioned earlier.

It seems only a useful feature for player's who cannot dedicate the time (though I'd wonder if your money is being well-spent then) to properly playing a game, or else is for players whose only goals are to speed through the game for its story and drop the game at the next impulse.
 

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I had this discussion with my friend a while ago regarding grinding in gaming and it became more of a debate since I have always found it to be an unnecessary feature added into games because the developers couldn't make the game more interesting and extending the playtime so they made it so you have to do hours upon hours of grinding. later on he argued that grinding is a "challenge" and I really questioned that because there is no real challenge in there unless you count how long until you're so bored you'll just give up and play something fun.

I find it even more weird because I get condoned for not grinding for hours and hours in any game and using codes like a x2 EXP mod to lessen the grind time and still be able to face the boss and have a real challenging battle since I usually just cheat until i'm the same level as the boss i'm going up against and then just move on in the story. I'm curious as to why people hold such a boring and unnecessary mechanic to such high regards when many games just work better if you get 3 or 4 battles to level up to the same level as the boss in the area and still have a challenging battle while not needing to waste hours and hours just to get the same result.

Well, it depends on the girl. Some girls like grinding to slow music but others don't. You just have to try and see.
 

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I'unno--scaling enemies to the player has had disastrous results in most games I've played. They completely invalidate any sense of exploration and accomplishment, or immersion for that matter, as you can always rely on the game bending its knee towards an incapable player, pandering a victory to the player whenever it seems said-player can't achieve it on their own.

Next to that, scaling content has the tendency to make everything in a game feel meaningless. It doesn't matter what you do or what you achieve, because everything in terms of rewards is given to you at your specific bracket of experience/progress. It completely reinforces the artificiality of the game in a negative manner, and drops you into that auto-pilot mode I mentioned earlier.

It seems only a useful feature for player's who cannot dedicate the time (though I'd wonder if your money is being well-spent then) to properly playing a game, or else is for players whose only goals are to speed through the game for its story and drop the game at the next impulse.

The thing with scalable enemies is that their levels scale but their equipment doesn't. So like in Skyrim, enemies scale, but they become so easy after a certain level because you have great equipment and an arsenal of abilities.

So you feel a sense of accomplishment without enemies being ants.
 

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I'unno--scaling enemies to the player has had disastrous results in most games I've played. They completely invalidate any sense of exploration and accomplishment, or immersion for that matter, as you can always rely on the game bending its knee towards an incapable player, pandering a victory to the player whenever it seems said-player can't achieve it on their own.
Not when the enemies have a "lowest possible stat" - a Super Mutant should remain a Super Mutant - a fight with a huge monster should be challenging regardless of when you meet it, but it can't be downgraded to an idiot-like level - it needs to be balanced.

Next to that, scaling content has the tendency to make everything in a game feel meaningless. It doesn't matter what you do or what you achieve, because everything in terms of rewards is given to you at your specific bracket of experience/progress. It completely reinforces the artificiality of the game in a negative manner, and drops you into that auto-pilot mode I mentioned earlier.
Not true. Humans have a natural drive towards exploration. What you're saying applies only to speedrunners. ;)

It seems only a useful feature for player's who cannot dedicate the time (though I'd wonder if your money is being well-spent then) to properly playing a game, or else is for players whose only goals are to speed through the game for its story and drop the game at the next impulse.
It's better than grinding, still. ;)
 

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The thing with scalable enemies is that their levels scale but their equipment doesn't. So like in Skyrim, enemies scale, but they become so easy after a certain level because you have great equipment and an arsenal of abilities.

So you feel a sense of accomplishment without enemies being ants.
That is, until the game scales equipment too and then you start getting weak messengers hand-delivering new weapons and armor to you with no cost and little effort. Skyrim is guilty of this especially.

Humans have a natural drive towards exploration
And that sense of discovery is harshly stunted when the player realizes he can go anywhere he pleases in an often generic and repetitive world, and find the same challenge everywhere. Making so that the player can literally pick any random direction and find no consequence if they simply go out that direction and not stop. If the sense of exploration is key, one would either repair the faulty battle scaling, or undo it altogether and put more effort into creating unique and appreciable environments.

Not when the enemies have a "lowest possible stat" - a Super Mutant should remain a Super Mutant - a fight with a huge monster should be challenging regardless of when you meet it, but it can't be downgraded to an idiot-like level - it needs to be balanced.
But, they thing is, they often are scaled lower. Even if there's a hard-limit to the lower-scale, the enemies are still usually manageable with a little effort, and once the player learns how to tackle the enemy, they become just as predictable and generic as the other enemies that do scale beneath the player bracket. And even that, actually, makes very little theoretical sense: to have a low-bracket beneath the player level or even at it means there will always be a scaleable setting that's push-over for the player, something's that's always accomplishable and something never too dangerous to engage with. If there's lowest-scale that the player can reach, that means that inevitably, the game will cease to pose a threat (which is often at a very low level in games that scale content).

Difficulty is a hard thing to properly balance, especially in a game whose main goal is not to have good difficulty, but to make enough money to compensate developers' and publishers' financial investment. Next to that, it's hard to properly accommodate every player's idea of an ideal difficulty. This is, thankfully, mitigated on PC versions of games, where users can at least have the chance to modify such scales and put in something more constant, dependable, and dangerous to deal with. In the end, at least, no broken difficulty scale I've encountered has destroyed a game experience. It's only made it a good chunk less appreciable.
 

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I think the problem only occurs if you're actively calling it "grinding". With any RPG (or RPG-ish game), you'll naturally pick up experience with pretty much everything you do. Defeating monsters, solving puzzles, sidequests, finding items, that sort of stuff. The only difference with that and grinding is that grinding more or less makes you stay in the same place or area to camp or loot easy experience.

This can be because you want to (less than a week back, I spent an entire train ride on game boy's mystic quest leveling my character up from about 16 to 30 on all stats on a spot that allows for quick experience). After all: this is training to make your character stronger (meaning: fun).
I agree it's less fun (or downright bad design) if you're either forced to do all the sidequests or even aimlessly hunt monsters for experience, just to survive the next part of the game.


Not mentioned, but I'm also thinking of Sonic & all stars racing here. For some reason I cannot quite understand, there is a leveling system in that game. It doesn't give you an edge, though. It just unlocks different mods for the car (from the get-go, all different models handle differently. With mods, however, you can make car A act more like car B. It's kind of fun if you have a favorite model you want for each race).
Though this is a completely different strategy than in RPG's, I must say I approve of it. It's kind of an added bonus each time you play any given race (which is and remains the sole reason to play).
While there is A LOT to unlock (I think it'll take over 200 decent races to unlock everything), it doesn't hinder or cripple the game in any way. And because you're never racing "because" of the experience it gives, it never truly becomes grinding.
 

Just Another Gamer

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Well if the game has random encounters I just explore the place normally and advance the story. I never run from battles, I beat every monster that I come across. Sometimes I run near the endgame if some enemies take a long time.

If I see the enemy on screen and can choose whether to attack it or not, I usually choose to attack it. I usually clear the whole map so there are no monsters on screen. If I go back to that screen again and monsters are respawned, I leave them alone unless I can't proceed to the next area without defeating them again.

I never have troubles with my levels with this way of playing.
No one can have trouble but it a question of is it fun or enjoyable to the player to just run around and after a few steps get another random battle with the only real way of avoiding it is to cheat and have a no random encounter code and this is exactly why I hate the modern RPG model because all it does is add more grinding through random encounters just to extend a game's playtime which is obviously the wrong way to approach making a game.

I mean what difference would it make if I used a cheat to level up 5 levels in one battle and then can just turn off any random encounters and just proceed through the story and move on to the next boss rather then spend the next few hours grinding just to get the same result, nothing and if anything I can enjoy the game sooner than if I just played normally and kept grinding which is a good thing because RPGs are usually played only for its stories, characters and boss fights not hours upon hours of grinding just so the next boss quest one hit kill you.
 

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