The situation in Ukraine...

[Coto]

oh. That's bad or good?

Good or bad doesn't exist in war.

But if you're killing civilians, raping women and children, and sending bloodbath'd goods just because you've got the tools for that, you'd be a monster.

 

[Coto]

CHERNIHIV high school bombed by Russia -- many casualties​

--------------------------------------------------------------

Terrifying car cemetery in Bucha. Russian invaders fired at civilians' cars trying to leave the city​

 

[Foxi4]

If there are no races due to this argument (which is btw a mainstream argument perpetuated by the "scientific community"), then there can be no ethnicities either. Aren´t ethnicities based on genetic clusters? Race is just a broader term than ethnicity.

No, it isn’t, and never was. An ethnic group is distinguishable based on a variety of factors besides common ancestry, including (but not limited to) cultural herritage, religion, language, tradition, nationality, social norms and more. In addition, this argument is silly as it has nothing to do with what’s being discussed here. “A baguette and a kaiser roll are effectively the same because scrambled eggs are a great breakfast food” is not a sensible way to have a discussion.

I couldn´t tell whether they are bodies on those satellite images.

I’m not your optician.

Isn´t it odd that the Russians leave and they leave corpses (who had been there for weeks apparently) lying on street for days?

No, it’s not odd.

The happy mayor didn´t mention them when he made his twitter video.

I’m not the mayor’s speech writer.

They could have been placed there.

Conspiratorial. Where’s your evidence? They were placed there alright - by Russians shooting at civilians, of which there’s a public record.

I think they are people killed in the war but I cannot tell who killed them and whether they were placed there.

I can, because they’re dead Ukrainians in Ukraine after it was attacked by Russia, and the surroundings do not seem to be disturbed, ruling out the possibility of a film crew dragging bodies there for a photo op. You can concoct a different story if you want, I’ll err on the side of Occam’s Razor.

The West is suscepitble to imagery. Let´s not forget the Syrian boy. He did die. But he was placed face-down at the coast to elicit sympathy for refugees (even though he and his father were safe in Turkey, the father decided to get dental treatment in Canada and made a dangerous journey).

”Baguettes are nice and crispy, but they don’t make good life boats”. Again, you’re dragging in something true, but unrelated, to bolster your point. Where’s your evidence of tampering? Where did the bodies come from?

And you know what? It worked. Just as it worked in Bucha IF the images are manipulated.

Which you are yet to explain. What you’re saying is that there are multiple mass graves found in a small town, and all of the bodies were dragged there from all around the place to stage an elaborate photo op that nobody was aware of, despite the presence of international press in the country and spy satellites locked in on the place at all times, and this monumental effort left no traces behind for us to examine after the fact. How did they transport the bodies? With ghost trucks? They didn’t just “appear” - if your conspiracy theory is to have any legs, you have to some way to locate, transport and distribute dead bodies around town and in the forest. Who did that? When? Is there any evidence of that happening? Because if there isn’t, I’m going to assume that the most likely scenario is true - Russian forces killed a bunch of Ukrainians and left them in the streets. It’s the most likely scenario because we know that’s happening - it’s on video. Until proven otherwise, that’s the obvious explanation of how you end up with corpses on a street in the middle of a warzone.

The international press arrived after the fact. You think they go into dangerous areas? You have to resort to private journalists for that.

Every single major outlet has war correspondents.

Here’s the crux of the issue. While technically possible, your scenario is highly unlikely, not the reasons stated above and more. You’re welcome to distrust the official narrative, and asking questions is always good - trust, but verify. With that being said, concocting stories is never a good look if you have nothing to go by besides intuition. The most likely, obvious scenario here is that those people were killed by invading Russian forces. It wouldn’t be the first time. Russian military might be trained to follow some basic precepts of the Geneva convention - the PMC’s they hire, like Wagner Group, don’t have to worry about that. There’s a reason why contractors get hired in such conflicts - plausible deniability. The political ramifications of a PMC operating outside of the modern rules of warfare are minimal, Blake can be shifted very easily here.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/me...-convention-war-crimes-atrocities-11649797041
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

No, it isn’t, and never was. An ethnic group is distinguishable based on a variety of factors besides common ancestry, including (but not limited to) cultural herritage, religion, language, tradition, nationality, social norms and more. In addition, this argument is silly as it has nothing to do with what’s being discussed here. “A baguette and a kaiser roll are effectively the same because scrambled eggs are a great breakfast food” is not a sensible way to have a discussion.

I have given a different explanation of what might have happened. You are free to accept the mainstream view. The same mainstream that has tried to portray Russia in the worst possible light since the days of Jelzin are over.
"Conspiratorial" is not an argument. Wars are full of conspiracies. In fact, the invasion itself can be described as one: Putin conspired with his generals to attack Ukraine. Iraq 1 and Iraq 2 were started by a conspiracy.

What you said about ethnicity is bullshit. I am living in China but if I do not make babies with Chinese women, my children will not be of Chinese ethnicity, no matter their Chinese language skill, religion, etc. Nor will I become even 1% Chinese (by ethnicity). Obama´s ethnicity is Kenyan and European (as far as I know). It is clearly based on genetic clusters. If you deny this obvious truth, I wouldn´t trust your opinion on today´s weather.

 

[Foxi4]

I have given a different explanation of what might have happened. You are free to accept the mainstream view. The same mainstream that has tried to portray Russia in the worst possible light since the days of Jelzin are over.
"Conspiratorial" is not an argument. Wars are full of conspiracies. In fact, the invasion itself can be described as one: Putin conspired with his generals to attack Ukraine. Iraq 1 and Iraq 2 were started by a conspiracy.

Bad intelligence is not equivalent to conspiracy. Russia is portrayed poorly in the media because it continues to be an awful place to live in.

What you said about ethnicity is bullshit. I am living in China but if I do not make babies with Chinese women, my children will not be of Chinese ethnicity, no matter their Chinese language skill, religion, etc. Nor will I become even 1% Chinese (by ethnicity). Obama´s ethnicity is Kenyan and European (as far as I know). It is clearly based on genetic clusters. If you deny this obvious truth, I wouldn´t trust your opinion on today´s weather.

Ethnicity, noun - a particular ethnic group, or the fact of belonging to a particular ethnic group (= a group of people with a shared culture, tradition, language, history, etc.)

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ethnicity

You’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with the accepted definition. You can have your own made-up definition, but don’t expect others to operate within the confines of it. The rest of us agree on what the word means.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

So am I ethnically Chinese then once I reach a high level of fluency, listen to Chinese music and enjoy Beijing Opera and duck?
Would my hypothetical non-Chinese children become ethnically Chinese?
Nonsense, and you know it.

 

[Foxi4]

So am I ethnically Chinese then once I reach a high level of fluency, listen to Chinese music and enjoy Beijing Opera and duck?
Would my hypothetical non-Chinese children become ethnically Chinese?
Nonsense, and you know it.

Ethnicity may be construed as an inherited or as a societally imposed construct. Ethnic membership tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language, or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, or physical appearance. Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with many groups having mixed genetic ancestry. Ethnic groups often continue to speak related languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

It would make you a Chinese speaker. Would you say that there are other factors that distinguish you from the group’s accepted default, precluding you from “becoming Chinese” in the eyes of your peers? Different groups operate on different membership requirements. Ethnic groups shift and intermix constantly, over long stretches of time. When does a person become “British”? They seem to be far more lenient than the insular Chinese. How about American? It seems to me that just citizenship alone is sufficient, and many argue that even that isn’t a prerequisite. Add supersets and subsets to this mix, and simultaneous membership to multiple groups, and you get a real bowl of spaghetti.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

A Chinese becoming German, French etc is just as idiotic. You just don´t realize it due to your upbringing. American is not an ethnicity but a mix of many. There is a difference between citizenship and ethnicity.

 

[Coto]

Real people fighting needs inmediate support, and politicians are NOT helping them at all.

 

[Foxi4]

A Chinese becoming German, French etc is just as idiotic. You just don´t realize it due to your upbringing. American is not an ethnicity but a mix of many. There is a difference between citizenship and ethnicity.

I don’t think you grasp the difference between ancestry, which is biological, and ethnic grouping, which is entirely social. A 5th generation “Asian” person living in America, following an American lifestyle, eating American foods, speaking English and celebrating American holidays is objectively Asian in blood only. They’re called “Asian Americans” for a reason - they’re Americans who came to America from Asia. It doesn’t matter that their eyes look a certain way or their skin is a certain colour - they’re as American as any other American. They’re not “the same” as the people in their ancestral homeland, they’ve acquired traits that are native to their new home and new social environment. While it’s true that America specifically is divided into multiple ethnic subgroups based on origin, I’d argue that “-American” does automatically impart tradition and culture unique to the region, which is ethnically relevant. We could have a discussion on whether that could be considered an ethnicity or not - that’d be interesting. Arguing about what ethnicity is is silly - we know what it is, we made up the term to mean a certain thing, and that’s what it means, despite your protestations. Bigger subject, to be sure, but in the context of “being british” for instance, there’s no shortage of brits that are black or Indian - the empire stretched across pretty much all of the continents. What does it mean to be “British”? Your guess is as good as mine, I assume it has something to do with tea and biscuits, and sarcasm. Tl;dr “ethnicity” is a much broader therm than race (as far as race can be considered real in regards to ancestry and census data), you can have two people with common ancestry belonging to different social groupings, it’s not uncommon.

 

[djpannda]

Oh .. so it looks like China isn’t going to save Russia? Lol guess China just wants Russia to completely fail to buy it completely up​

UnionPay refuses to cooperate with Sberbank due to the risk of secondary sanctions – The Moscow Times​

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I don’t think you grasp the difference between ancestry, which is biological, and ethnic grouping, which is entirely social. A 5th generation “Asian” person living in America, following an American lifestyle, eating American foods, speaking English and celebrating American holidays is objectively Asian in blood only. They’re called “Asian Americans” for a reason - they’re Americans who came to America from Asia. It doesn’t matter that their eyes look a certain way or their skin is a certain colour - they’re as American as any other American. They’re not “the same” as the people in their ancestral homeland, they’ve acquired traits that are native to their new home and new social environment. While it’s true that America specifically is divided into multiple ethnic subgroups based on origin, I’d argue that “-American” does automatically impart tradition and culture unique to the region, which is ethnically relevant. We could have a discussion on whether that could be considered an ethnicity or not - that’d be interesting. Arguing about what ethnicity is is silly - we know what it is, we made up the term to mean a certain thing, and that’s what it means, despite your protestations. Bigger subject, to be sure, but in the context of “being british” for instance, there’s no shortage of brits that are black or Indian - the empire stretched across pretty much all of the continents. What does it mean to be “British”? Your guess is as good as mine, I assume it has something to do with tea and biscuits, and sarcasm. Tl;dr “ethnicity” is a much broader therm than race (as far as race can be considered real in regards to ancestry and census data), you can have two people with common ancestry belonging to different social groupings, it’s not uncommon.

Stalin forbade a relative of Lenin to talk about Lenin´s partial Jewish ethnicity. They were not talking about religion. His grandfather (originally named Blank) had adopted a Russian last name. Lenin was a non-religious Christian. If ethnicity was about religion, there would have been no problem. Yet modern antisemitism is about ethnicity, not religion (in both Russia and Germany).

Ethnicity is also constantly brought up with regards to racial profiling (e.g. „Bei einer Podiumsdiskussion waren Polizeikontrollen aufgrund der Ethnie Thema. Eine Studie zeigt, dass es Racial Profiling in der Schweiz gibt.“) Makes no sense if it is about culture. Ethnicity is about ancenstry first, the other aspects are Western postmodern make-believe. Two siblings could be raised on different continents, yet their ethnicity has to be identicial if they have the same parents.

Anyway, believe what you want. To be exact: Make yourself believe what you want.

 

[Foxi4]

Stalin forbade a relative of Lenin to talk about Lenin´s partial Jewish ethnicity. They were not talking about religion. His grandfather (originally named Blank) had adopted a Russian last name. Lenin was a non-religious Christian. If ethnicity was about religion, there would have been no problem. Yet modern antisemitism is about ethnicity, not religion (in both Russia and Germany).

Ethnicity is also constantly brought up with regards to racial profiling (e.g. „Bei einer Podiumsdiskussion waren Polizeikontrollen aufgrund der Ethnie Thema. Eine Studie zeigt, dass es Racial Profiling in der Schweiz gibt.“) Makes no sense if it is about culture. Ethnicity is about ancenstry first, the other aspects are Western postmodern make-believe. Two siblings could be raised on different continents, yet their ethnicity has to be identicial if they have the same parents.

Anyway, believe what you want. To be exact: Make yourself believe what you want.

Jews are an example of the exact point I’m making, actually. Jews intermarried with local populations to a huge extent - Ashkenazi Jews are nothing like Sephardic Jews (diaspora and all that), but they’re all “Jews” on the basis of religious custom. Even non-practicing Jews are subject to Jewish custom, in the sense that the status is passed down on the mother’s side. You’re “a Jew” if your mother was Jewish (matrilineal descent) - that’s it. The race or ethnicity of the father is completely irrelevant. Heck, you can “become Jewish”, they have set rules for that. You’ve torpedoed your own argument.

 

[rantex92]

Jews are an example of the exact point I’m making, actually. Jews intermarried with local populations to a huge extent - Ashkenazi Jews are nothing like Sephardic Jews (diaspora and all that), but they’re all “Jews” on the basis of religious custom. Even non-practicing Jews are subject to Jewish custom, in the sense that the status is passed down on the mother’s side. You’re “a Jew” if your mother was Jewish (matrilineal descent) - that’s it. The race or ethnicity of the father is completely irrelevant. Heck, you can “become Jewish”, they have set rules for that. You’ve torpedoed your own argument.

oooohhhhh that wouldnt fly in germany i can hear the leftist screams "jews are not a race is a religion"
but what those people dont know jewish nationalism (if you can call that nationalism ) exist and they aint different from the funny mustache guy just to quote Rabbi Ovadia Yosef "goyims only exist to serve the jews" and yes they see them self as the holy race ....again much like the funny mustache guy

 

[Xzi]

oooohhhhh that wouldnt fly in germany i can hear the leftist screams "jews are not a race is a religion"
but what those people dont know jewish nationalism (if you can call that nationalism ) exist and they aint different from the funny mustache guy just to quote Rabbi Ovadia Yosef "goyims only exist to serve the jews" and yes they see them self as the holy race ....again much like the funny mustache guy

And Christian nationalists don't exist? Seems like a good portion of people who believe in any one of the three Abrahamic religions would love nothing more than to be locked into an eternal dick measuring contest with the other two. Which would be good and fine if the dispute didn't turn violent so often.

 

[rantex92]

And Christian nationalists don't exist? Seems like a good portion of people who believe in any one of the three Abrahamic religions would love nothing more than to be locked into an eternal dick measuring contest with the other two. Which would be good and fine if the dispute didn't turn violent so often.

nah dude dont get me wrong any kind of thinking x is superior of another x (where x can be race,religion,politic opinions) is F*cked

let quote my favourite parody

"By the way, do you know what religious wars are? these are conflicts between adults about who has the cooler imaginary friend"

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Jews are an example of the exact point I’m making, actually. Jews intermarried with local populations to a huge extent - Ashkenazi Jews are nothing like Sephardic Jews (diaspora and all that), but they’re all “Jews” on the basis of religious custom. Even non-practicing Jews are subject to Jewish custom, in the sense that the status is passed down on the mother’s side. You’re “a Jew” if your mother was Jewish (matrilineal descent) - that’s it. The race or ethnicity of the father is completely irrelevant. Heck, you can “become Jewish”, they have set rules for that. You’ve torpedoed your own argument.

You are tropedoing your argument. What distinguishes Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews are different admixtures, costums are secondary (i.e. they result from the different ethnic background). Both trace their lineage back to the Middle East. Mizrahi Jews could perhaps be described as the closest to e.g. Jesus of Nazareth.
My understanding of ethnicity does not negate intermarriage. Obama is half Kenyan, half European. If he had married a European, his children would look pretty European and could be considered as such, independent of customs.
While converting to the Jewish faith is possible, it is extremely rare. It is often discouraged and in my view, converts are not real Jews. They could be part of the extended community and blend through intermarriage.

If 10mio Koreans decided tomorrow to become Jews, we would not consider them Jews. But they could become Christians or Muslims.

 

[Foxi4]

You are tropedoing your argument. What distinguishes Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews are different admixtures, costums are secondary (i.e. they result from the different ethnic background). Both trace their lineage back to the Middle East. Mizrahi Jews could perhaps be described as the closest to e.g. Jesus of Nazareth.
My understanding of ethnicity does not negate intermarriage. Obama is half Kenyan, half European. If he had married a European, his children would look pretty European and could be considered as such, independent of customs.
While converting to the Jewish faith is possible, it is extremely rare. It is often discouraged and in my view, converts are not real Jews. They could be part of the extended community and blend through intermarriage.

If 10mio Koreans decided tomorrow to become Jews, we would not consider them Jews. But they could become Christians or Muslims.

This conversation is circular and pointless. We’ll have to agree to disagree. You *just* said that if you had a Chinese wife, your half-Chinese child wouldn’t be considered truly Chinese, now you’re back-pedalling and introducing “halfsies”. Jews discourage conversion, but not because they don’t want there to be more Jews - they do it because being a Jew is rough. There’s no shortage of antisemites in the world, so if you want to “become a Jew”, you’re effectively asking to be persecuted against - they generally want to be sure you know what you’re getting into.

 

[smf]

So am I ethnically Chinese then once I reach a high level of fluency, listen to Chinese music and enjoy Beijing Opera and duck?
Would my hypothetical non-Chinese children become ethnically Chinese?
Nonsense, and you know it.

nonsense indeed.

ethnicity is about a group, not about an individual.

If you and several thousand other people did it & kept it going for a few generations & built your entire culture around it, then sure you'd be an ethnic minority.

You wouldn't become chinese though.

nice to see you're still busy building strawmen.

 

[smf]

If 10mio Koreans decided tomorrow to become Jews, we would not consider them Jews. But they could become Christians or Muslims.

Yes, they would be jews.

Generally, in modern secular usage Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion.