Joe Biden Wins - Becomes 46th president of the United States

[Foxi4]

@Foxi4 I contend that his sharing of his position makes it easier to combat his ideology. Hiding it actively makes it harder to address the problem with his views. It obfuscates the real issue and derails the conversation.

His opinion is still present, I merely removed terms that denigrate thousands of voters. I'm a huge supporter of the Electoral College, I think it should be emulated in other countries with a similar structure to the U.S., not eliminated, but if he wants to make that point then he has to make it without disparaging remarks, or not at all. 361 pages of this thread lead me to believe that it should be policed far more harshly than it was up to this point, and while I can't be here 24/7, I'm here right now, so I can take necessary action when needed.

 

[Cryoraptor]

Then engage with my point. What values of the Republican Party do you agree with?

Right, this is where the conversation breaks down because I'm trying to apply my ideology to a system that is totally different from mine.

My centrism is based around UK politics. Left and Right don't practically mean the same in the UK as they do in America. In America, 'centre' means somewhere in the middle of GOP and Dems, but in UK terms centre pretty much aligns with the Dems.

I'm not as well versed in US politics because I don't live there, but generally speaking, I'm not going to agree with the GOP about much, because they occupy the right and aren't interested about centrist politics at all. On the inverse, I'm going to find myself agreeing with the Dems about a lot of things, because they generally occupy the centre. There's even a few things I'd go further left on than the Dems, because in UK terms they can creep to centre-right. For instance, I support public healthcare, but most Dems don't, so on that issue, I'm further left than the Dems. But generally speaking I'm going to agree with them on most things.

In the UK, most people are pretty much centre with small leanings, so is it any surprise that most Brits support the Democrats and a very large number of people here, even more right-leaning ones, hate Trump? All of our parties are pretty much centre with some sort of leaning, e.g. tories are centre-right, libs are centre (although I hate the libs with a passion), labour is centre to centre-left, and so on. The actual right and left wing parties are considered too extreme by most people, and is largely why, among other things, the labour party under Corbyn performed so badly. To a lot of people in this country, Trump and the GOP look more like modern UKIP than our tories, and dems look more like our tories than our labour.

So actually, my point still stands.

 

[Doran754]

Right, this is where the conversation breaks down because I'm trying to apply my ideology to a system that is totally different from mine.

My centrism is based around UK politics. Left and Right don't practically mean the same in the UK as they do in America. In America, 'centre' means somewhere in the middle of GOP and Dems, but in UK terms centre pretty much aligns with the Dems.

I'm not as well versed in US politics because I don't live there, but generally speaking, I'm not going to agree with the GOP about much, because they occupy the right and aren't interested about centrist politics at all. On the inverse, I'm going to find myself agreeing with the Dems about a lot of things, because they generally occupy the centre. There's even a few things I'd go further left on than the Dems, because in UK terms they can creep to centre-right. For instance, I support public healthcare, but most Dems don't, so on that issue, I'm further left than the Dems. But generally speaking I'm going to agree with them on most things.

In the UK, most people are pretty much centre with small leanings, so is it any surprise that most Brits support the Democrats and a very large number of people here, even more right-leaning ones, hate Trump? All of our parties are pretty much centre with some sort of leaning, e.g. tories are centre-right, libs are centre (although I hate the libs with a passion), labour is centre to centre-left, and so on. The actual right and left wing parties are considered too extreme by most people, and is largely why, among other things, the labour party under Corbyn performed so badly. To a lot of people in this country, Trump and the GOP look more like modern UKIP than our tories, and dems look more like our tories than our labour.

So actually, my point still stands.

You spoke to all 68,000,000 of us? What makes you think 'most of the UK' would lean Dem when the Conservatives a very much "not leaning left" party has been in power for over 10 years and unless you class Brexit as leaning left, then your claim is unfounded. What you mean is "me and my mates tend to lean that way and ive convinced myself that my small bubble is the world"

The EC is a good system, It suits their country. It stops states like California deciding who's president by itself every 4 years basically. What needs working on is the UK's first past the post system which is utter shite. You should start a thread on that.

 

[Lacius]

You spoke to all 68,000,000 of us? What makes you think 'most of the UK' would lean Dem when the Conservatives a very much "not leaning left" party has been in power for over 10 years and unless you class Brexit as leaning left, then your claim is unfounded. What you mean is "me and my mates tend to lean that way and ive convinced myself that my small bubble is the world"

The EC is a good system, It suits their country. It stops states like California deciding who's president by itself every 4 years basically. What needs working on is the UK's first past the post system which is utter shite. You should start a thread on that.

An end to the anti-democratic Electoral College would not result in "California" or other blue states deciding the results of the presidential election. In reality, it would actually give the millions of Republican Californians a voice in a presidential election for once in their miserable lives.

 

[Doran754]

An end to the anti-democratic Electoral College would not result in "California" or other blue states deciding the results of the presidential election. In reality, it would actually give the millions of Republican Californians a voice in a presidential election for once in their miserable lives.

How so? I'm happy to learn, my understanding of it is that California, with a HUGE population (only getting bigger with more illegals every year, who will likely be able to vote in future elections) outnumber quite a few states. I don't understand how using the popular vote wouldn't just result in them deciding the election by themselves.

 

[Lacius]

How so? I'm happy to learn, my understanding of it is that California, with a HUGE population (only getting bigger with more illegals every year, who will likely be able to vote in future elections) outnumber quite a few states. I don't understand how using the popular vote wouldn't just result in them deciding the election by themselves.

California is a plurality of the American population, not a majority.

In other words, California is the biggest state by population, but it's only 11.8% of the US population, and a lot of that is Republican.

 

[White_Raven_X]

I don't understand how using the popular vote wouldn't just result in them deciding the election by themselves.

Because that’s how the framers of the Constitution set it up in 1787!

 

[Cryoraptor]

You spoke to all 68,000,000 of us? What makes you think 'most of the UK' would lean Dem

Because it does. Very few people here support Trump at all. Back in 2017 time when I was in my edgy anti-SJW phase I was attacked consantly for my views and I was seen as all sorts of -phobes.

the Conservatives a very much "not leaning left" party has been in power for over 10 years

The term 'Centre-right' means 'centrist leaning on moderate right wing policies'. The tories being in power has little to do with their policies and more to do with how much the Blairites fucked up the country though. Generally speaking, the British public will vote in whoever is occupying the closest position to the centre, which is partly why labour failed so badly under Corbyn.

unless you class Brexit as leaning left, then your claim is unfounded

I'm not going to get into brexit here because that's a whole other shitshow, but it really has no political leaning. So many arguments can be made both for and against it on both sides. We joined the EU under a tory government (arguably one more right wing than any in more recent history) and we left under a tory government.

What you mean is "me and my mates tend to lean that way and ive convinced myself that my small bubble is the world"

Not really. The UK is very much a nation of centrists.

The EC is a good system, It suits their country. It stops states like California decided who's president by itself every 4 years basically

Well not really. The states with the highest population logically get the largest say, because they have the most people in them. This is another case of 'I don't want to fix an unfair system because the people I like will seldom be voted in. I don't care that the majority of Americans don't want the people I like in power, I want them in and that's all that matters'.

What needs working on is the UK's first past the post system which is utter shite. You should start a thread on that.

Ok, tell me what's wrong with it. It's not perfect, so if you raise some genuine problems with it I might agree with you.

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and a lot of that is Republican

I feel like a lot of people actually forget that it's only the coastal urban areas in California that reliably vote Democrat. Pretty much all of the northern region votes Republican; something like 35% of California. In the same way, Texas is very similarly a split between the large rural Republican regions and the heavily latino-influenced urban Democrat areas. They would in no way decide the election, it's complete nonsense, and Republicans know that. It's just an excuse because they know they will have a much harder time winning any elections if it actually went by real votes instead of EC.

 

[Valwinz]

Planning to use full military force against citizens is a pretty interesting thing for Biden you know the guy with a standing army. not even trump did that in the summer when BLM was looting and burning

 

[Lacius]

Because it does. Very few people here support Trump at all. Back in 2017 time when I was in my edgy anti-SJW phase I was attacked consantly for my views and I was seen as all sorts of -phobes.


The term 'Centre-right' means 'centrist leaning on moderate right wing policies'. The tories being in power has little to do with their policies and more to do with how much the Blairites fucked up the country though. Generally speaking, the British public will vote in whoever is occupying the closest position to the centre, which is partly why labour failed so badly under Corbyn.


I'm not going to get into brexit here because that's a whole other shitshow, but it really has no political leaning. So many arguments can be made both for and against it on both sides. We joined the EU under a tory government (arguably one more right wing than any in more recent history) and we left under a tory government.


Not really. The UK is very much a nation of centrists.


Well not really. The states with the highest population logically get the largest say, because they have the most people in them. This is another case of 'I don't want to fix an unfair system because the people I like will seldom be voted in. I don't care that the majority of Americans don't want the people I like in power, I want them in and that's all that matters'.


Ok, tell me what's wrong with it. It's not perfect, so if you raise some genuine problems with it I might agree with you.

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I feel like a lot of people actually forget that it's only the coastal urban areas in California that reliably vote Democrat. Pretty much all of the northern region votes Republican; something like 35% of California. In the same way, Texas is very similarly a split between the large rural Republican regions and the heavily latino-influenced urban Democrat areas. They would in no way decide the election, it's complete nonsense.

The Electoral College irrationally changes the votes of nearly half the population of each state, it gives citizens of some states more voting power than the citizens of other states, it disincentivizes voting in presidential elections if one doesn't live in a swing state, it allows presidential candidates (and Presidents) to write off entire states, and it scrambles the results of the election in potentially strange ways where the popular vote winner can, for example, win with 70-90% of the vote and lose the election. Oh, and the Electoral College exists largely due to the racist concerns of slave states who wanted power without giving a significant percentage of their population (Black people) voting rights.

There is no defense for the Electoral College. It doesn't accomplish what anyone pretends it accomplishes, it exists because of slavery and racism, and it's fundamentally anti-democratic. It continues to exist solely because one political party believes they benefit from it, and they're right.

 

[Darth Meteos]

My centrism is based around UK politics.

If you're talking about UK centrism and not US centrism, you are alright in my book. I am still quite a bit to your left, but you aren't... well. Look around. We have enough common ground that being adversarial is ridiculous, at the very least!

 

[Foxi4]

There is no defense for the Electoral College. It doesn't accomplish what anyone pretends it accomplishes, it exists because of slavery and racism, and it's fundamentally anti-democratic. It continues to exist solely because one political party believes they benefit from it, and they're right.

It exists because the framers had a rough time deciding who should elect the head of the Executive - Congress or the public, with valid points on both sides. Leaving election procedures to the individual states and making them appoint electors who vote on behalf of the public was the closest thing to a consensus they could've achieved, and it stood the test of time. The number of electors a given state can appoint is proportional to its congressional delegation, which in turn is proportional to its population - let's not pretend that the number is fixed and has no relation to the actual number of voters. The United States, as the name implies, is a union of states federated under one federal government, so this setup makes perfect sense in my estimation.

 

[Deleted User]

Planning to use full military force against citizens is a pretty interesting thing for Biden

Biden currently doesn't have control. he is not in office yet. Trump is.

 

[Lacius]

It exists because the framers had a rough time deciding who should elect the head of the Executive - Congress or the public, with valid points on both sides. The leaving election procedures to the individual states and making them appoint electors who vote on behalf of the public was the closest thing to a consensus they could've achieved, and it stood the test of time. The number of electors a given state can appoint is proportional to its congressional delegation, which in turn is proportional to its population - let's not pretend that the number is fixed and has no relation to the actual number of voters. The United States, as the name implies, is a union of states federated under one federal government, so this setup makes perfect sense in my estimation.

We have the Electoral College largely because the average citizens couldn't be trusted to make the right decisions, according to the framers, and slave states wanted credit for their slave populations without giving slaves the right to vote. The creators of the Electoral College are also the same people who only wanted land-owning white men to be able to vote. Let's not pretend otherwise. "The rest is white noise as far as I'm concerned," and it doesn't contradict any of my previous points.

 

[Seliph]

Centrists are just right-wingers who are too afraid to admit it

 

[Lacius]

Centrists are just right-wingers who are too afraid to admit it

Centrists are often left-wing progressives who are too afraid to admit it.

 

[Deleted User]

Centrists are often left-wing progressives who are too afraid to admit it.

Centrists in the United states are technically right leaning people (overtune window or however it's spelled)
However, without understanding of politics outside the states, to them it looks like they are centrist.

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So really,the term "liberals" in the united states are most likely closer to centrists (outside of the united states) than actual leftists.

 

[Lacius]

Centrists in the United states are technically right leaning people (overtune window or however it's spelled)
However, without understanding of politics outside the states, to them it looks like they are centrist.

A centrist, by definition, is someone who falls in the center of the left/right political spectrum, and a true centrist couldn't be described as left or right-wing.

However, many self-described centrists are often left or right-wing, but for whatever reason (e.g. they're anti-confrontation or anti-politics), they identify as centrist.

Anecdotally, I've met self-described centrists who were left wing, but they had right wing family and were anti-confrontation. I've met self-described centrists who were right wing, but they were afraid of the social repercussions of supporting Trump and Trump policies.

 

[Darth Meteos]

imagine arguing that certain votes should mean less and certain votes should mean more explicitly because it makes democracy work better
the doublethink is unbelievable

 

[Foxi4]

@UltraSUPRA will not be joining us for the remainder of this thread's limited lifespan, I asked nicely. The same rule will be applied to anyone else purposefully breaking the rules just for the sake of using inflammatory language and causing arguments. The politics section was designed with civil discussion in mind, anyone who can't meet this (rather low) bar of acceptable behaviour will be suspended until after the inauguration.