Do Simple and Complex Games Coexist?

Foxi4

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Yes, the game has (wait for it).... complex physics .... it's not a matter if you agree or not, it's a matter of how the metagame of the game works. You dont see new advanced techniques for street fighter third strike/Killer Instinct/Tekken in 2014, 14 years after they release. They have a skillcap. Said Skillcap has yet to be reached in SSB Melee, it has been 14 years and there are still new advanced techniques being found, every year a new player arises taking the top places (Sometimes something unexpected like a Yoshi, a low tier character, placing 9th at apex 2014 (Player: Amsa)). A game that isnt complex cant survive 14 years in a community who ditch every old version for a new one even if it's inferior.
Yes, yes it can. There's people playing Counter Strike 1.6 to this day and the game is anything but complex, unless you treat decreasing accuracy during automatic fire "complexity" in this day and age. You can believe in whatever you want to believe, I'm going to stand by what I said and maintain that Smash is not a terribly complex game, it's a simple fighter which admittedly has physics, but that doesn't make it a complex game... which is okay because unless you've missed my initial post here, I specifically argued that a game doesn't have to be complex to be fun. "Easy to Play, Hard to Master" applies to Smash Bros., sure, hence all the "advanced techniques" which in any other context would just be called "good combos" or "exploiting the game", depending on how "advanced" they are. ;)

Now can we please stop yapping about Smash and get back to the main subject at hand, which is whether simple and complex games can co-exist in the same gaming market? Great. ;)
 
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Dork

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Now can we please stop yapping about Smash and get back to the main subject at hand, which is whether simple and complex games can co-exist in the same gaming market? Great. ;)

Not really much to discuss in this thread, since we know that both simple and complex games already coexist.
 

Felipe_9595

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Yes, yes it can. There's people playing Counter Strike 1.6 to this day and the game is anything but complex. You can believe in whatever you want to believe, I'm going to stand by what I said and maintain that Smash is not a terribly complex game, it's a simple fighter which admittedly has physics, but that doesn't make it a complex game... which is okay because unless you've missed my initial post here, I specifically argued that a game doesn't have to be complex to be fun. "Easy to Play, Hard to Master" applies to Smash Bros., sure, hence all the "advanced techniques" which in any other context would just be called "good combos" or "exploiting the game", depending on how "advanced" they are. ;)


I guess you can say Beatmania is a very simple game no? i mean, you have 7 buttons (8 if you consider the disc) and you have to tap them in a pattern. Really simple "mechanics" no? based on that, this is simple then?

 

Foxi4

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I guess you can say Beatmania is a very simple game no? i mean, you have 7 buttons (8 if you consider the disc) and you have to tap them in a pattern. Really simple "mechanics" no? based on that, this is simple then?
Of course it's simple. Degree of difficulty and simplicity of design are two mutually exclusive matters.
 

Felipe_9595

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Of course it's simple. Degree of difficulty and simplicity of design are two mutually exclusive matters.


Then thats where we are disagreeing, i find that extremely complex and i could never pull that in my life unless i spend 7-8 years of my life practicing in all my free time. Same concept than smash in a very, very superficial level. SImple mechanics, extremely hard to master = complex, at least for me and half the people out there.
 

Foxi4

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Then thats where we are disagreeing, i find that extremely complex and i could never pull that in my life unless i spend 7-8 years of my life practicing in all my free time. Same concept than smash in a very, very superficial level. SImple mechanics, extremely hard to master = complex, at least for me and half the people out there.
You have 8 buttons. Notes fall down on a screen. You press buttons when the notes are at the right level. This is not complex, this is as simple as it gets, get any simpler than that and you're playing with sticks and stones. It's essentially a matter of pressing buttons when you're prompted to do so. It's difficult because it's fast and there's a lot of ground to cover with 8 buttons used at the same time, but at the core of it all, it's Guitar Hero minus the strumming and all the instruments aside from the guitar. High difficulty does not equal high complexity, they're two completely different things.
 
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Gahars

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Oh boy, the "Smash Bros. is deep, honest!" brigade has arrived.

If you like it, like it. You don't have to try to validate your opinions by claiming it's deep and complex. It's a party brawler/mascot fighter, you don't have to make it anything more than that.

Honestly, competitive scenes are about the worst thing to happen to games since the '83 crash. Scratch that - at least you could still have fun in the '83 crash.
 

Foxi4

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Oh boy, the "Smash Bros. is deep, honest!" brigade has arrived.

If you like it, like it. You don't have to try to validate your opinions by claiming it's deep and complex. It's a party brawler/mascot fighter, you don't have to make it anything more than that.

Honestly, competitive scenes are about the worst thing to happen to games since the '83 crash. Scratch that - at least you could still have fun in the '83 crash.
No Gahars, we have to make it out to be unnecessarily convoluted and complex when all signs on heaven and Earth actually point to the fact that none of these "competitive speshul taktiks" were even conceived by the developers, these guys just made a fighting game and it turned out that way, which is the case 99 out of 100 times in game development, hence games are beta tested for long periods of time and often patched post-release to handle balancing problems. No, Smash was totally designed to be complex, every degree matters, it wasn't supposed to be a wholesome couch experience for people to enjoy. :)

Again, my point with Smash and its "scene" is that you can dissect any game in search of exploitable moves or those pixel-perfect positions that give you some sort of an advantage. You can dissect Pac Man for crying out loud - after all, each ghost has unique A.I. so if you really want to, you can strategize Pac Man.

*Insert "I wanna be the very best like no one ever was.mp3"*
 
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Pedeadstrian

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Ryukouki, no offense, but that grey area of yours doesn't make for very stimulating conversation. Pretty much everyone who posts in these articles says "both" when it's applicable, or "yes" because you ask questions that can only be answered in an absolutist way. Yes, simple and complex games coexist, sometimes within one game itself.

Regarding the questions you asked at the end, my mood changes. If I want to think and be mentally challenged, I'll play a puzzle, strategy, or tactical role playing game, which are almost always complex (puzzles not so much). Sometimes, however, I just wanna plow through a group of enemies. A game that is reflex-based isn't necessarily simple, but because they're designed to be fast-paced, something that is too complex might be too difficult. And sometimes I just wanna play a game like Angry Birds, where I'm thinking but also often going through several trials-and-errors because of the physics involved.

None of the types of games I listed are better than others. They each serve a purpose. For example, say you're waiting for something or someone, and only have ~!5 minutes to spare. If you were to play video games during that time, it's highly unlikely that you'll pick a complex one, because they usually end up taking a long time to do, have saves few and far between, and/or aren't tailored to interruptions in strategy. In that case, a simple game would probably be the way to go.
 
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FAST6191

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Well I thought we were in for a "I are pokemon player, hear me roar" session. Turns out we had got a smash brothers one instead. Still amusing though.

The only real problem is for pokemon we can at least try some basic things for; as much of a wind up as I tried to be in the pokemon legitimate vs legal stuff there was at least some theory behind it, smash competitions seem to be so abysmally organised/codified* though I get hung up there. If I try to leave it behind I would probably agree that the game is not what you could call balanced, which probably sends us back along the path the contests take even if I would set about it in a whole different way.

*at best they seem to get house ruled to such an extent that the game might only be recognisable as smash brothers for the characters it features, or at least the few ones that are allowed. The justifications for a lot of it is adorable though.

You can dissect Pac Man for crying out loud - after all, each ghost has unique A.I. so if you really want to, you can strategize Pac Man.

Already been done.


http://www.cnbc.com/id/41888021/Five_Things_You_Never_Knew_About_Pac_Man
 

2ndApex

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Pretty sure that SF4 offers counter-throws for every throw move and well-timed grabs can interrupt combos unless you're already being juggled, but alright. As for "total angular control of your attacks", Smash doesn't have that - attack directions are completely pre-calculated, as are character animations - there's left, right, up, down and diagonals with the exception of PK Thunder and, if I recall, the grapling hooks for Link and Samus, but I may be wrong about those two. I think you're mistaking Smash with Rag Doll Kung Fu.


SF4 has tech throws, so if two people throw at the same time they both bounce back, but no you cannot "throw" out of combos. Total angular control means that person getting hit has control over his angle of knockback, I think I've said it like 3 times already but this thread is already completely derailed.
 

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Yes, the game has (wait for it).... complex physics .... it's not a matter if you agree or not, it's a matter of how the metagame of the game works. You dont see new advanced techniques for street fighter third strike/Killer Instinct/Tekken in 2014, 14 years after they release. They have a skillcap.

So why doesn't the same player always win in SF2, a game released 25 years ago? Where's this skill cap you're talking about? Who reached it? Can you point it out to me? I'm afraid you don't actually understand what makes fighting games competitive or complex. It's not the physical execution / engine knowledge, that is the very first layer of depth there is to them. A required entry into the competitiveness, a means for an end (to maximize damage/movement).

The meat of fighting games is guessing, predicting, being a step ahead, calculating risks/rewards. Sometimes taking damage is a GOOD IDEA in specific situations. Of course, a Smash fanatic does not see this because the platformy movement kills most of the spacing game so it becomes all about the physics engine. That doesn't mean every fighting game is lacking. It merely means that smash is prioritizing a skillset over another.

Besides, there are still examples of notable players who are able to pull technicalities off that the vast majority of other top tier players cannot. In SFIV, Sakonoko is known worldwide for being the only one actual master of Cammy and Ibuki, despite there being other master tier Cammy and Ibuki players who could easily win the biggest tournaments.

As for why people discover things in smash every year? Up until a few years ago, no pro player was getting paid any reasonable amount of money by sponsors. Infact, almost nobody had a sponsor. This leads to a bigger number of players being unable to play the game for the entirety of their days, and so things are discovered more slowly. Not to mention that the smash competitive community as a whole has been much smaller in the past, and the lack of minor regional tournaments with a prize pool hurt the scene for 10 years. Also, japan outright ignoring smash is a big contributor to smash being discovered slowly; the japanese are in general the most attached to fighting games' competitiveness and arcades are still a cultural thing in there, the gatherings are big and happen every single night. Smash is only big in america, that is the main factor that makes it progress slowly.

It's not that other fighting games have no mechanical skill cap, it's just that the techniques are found faster because the competitive community is all across the world, bigger, and more enthusiastic. Matter of perspective. Between option selects, input buffering, and specific ambiguous crossups there are dozens of advanced tricks per character, they merely mostly focus on strategy rather than pure finger dexterity.

Oh, and besides, the aforementioned Cammy/Ibuki 1-frame links loops are technically more difficult to pull off to their max extent than anything currently discovered in Smash, so you've got the technical parts covered if you really value them so much.
 

Urza

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If I may play therapist for a moment here...


Foxi4, why are you trying so adamantly to win an argument on a subject you very clearly are not interested in, with people who are much more knowledgeable about it? Is it some sort of superiority complex in which you must engage in shitting on things other people enjoy, and always maintain the illusion that you're the most knowledgeable person on every subject ever?

I know how that can be, I've been that person.

You'll have a lot more time for productive endeavors if you give up that effort. Let people enjoy things that you don't, accept that they might know more than you about those things. Come to the realization that, even if you're right most of the time, that doesn't mean you're right all of the time. Opposing viewpoints should not be a trigger to double-down. They're an opportunity to re-examine your own.
 

lampdemon

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What makes Smash a complex fighting games are its mechanics/physics, what makes other fighting games complex are the "press 20 buttons to do one move"(a bit of an exaggeration) and slightly different mechanics than other games.
 

Steena

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What makes Smash a complex fighting games are its mechanics/physics, what makes other fighting games complex are the "press 20 buttons to do one move"(a bit of an exaggeration) and slightly different mechanics than other games.
There are plenty of characters/games that are extremely easy on the dialing side of things. Yet you'll most likely lose 30 matches in a row if you played against a top player using the same simple character. So I'm inclined to disagree with that.
 
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Taleweaver

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@OP: I'll go with the "easy to learn, hard to master" approach. There are lots of games where this applies, but also games where it simply doesn't...

-games where you level up or gain newer abilities during the game shouldn't be counted. Sure, it looks as if you improved, but this method is actually a bit like cheating. In a good game, all the rules should be layed out at the beginning. This isn't to say you can't get better (checkers both utilises simple and complex, despite your pieces "levelling up" if they reach the other side of the board), but it should be in consideration. There shouldn't be any grind to it.
-there are also games that already start out pretty complex or hard. Most RTS-es have this whole tech tree you'll have to know or find out, shooters have these maps and styles. Open world games often are a toolbox of all sorts of games (though they're called "minigames" nowadays). I could go on.

Man...now I think of it, it'll be hard to name anything other than platformers, board games or puzzle games to fill the "easy to learn, hard to master" criteria. :unsure:

Of course, not all games should try to incorporate both. It's perfectly fine to have a game that tutorializes people in the course of several hours. And games that are simple but have no depth to them...hmm...okay, I'll admit to that: if you want to make a simple game, make sure there is a depth to it; something to master or perfect. If not (or if the skill isn't gradually learned through the game) it'll be just a boring game.

There is certainly something to be said about the simplicity & complexity of single game characters, but I'd rather keep that for a different topic. I don't want to sound like the guy who wants to deem his "gameplay is all that matters!!!!" standpoint, but gameplay and story can't be measured by the same standards. and comparing characters, that should be done with other characters*. I mean...you won't think less of chess because the pieces don't have names or deep motivational motives for the moves you're making them do, right?

Now for a recent example...Zuma's revenge. Things really can't start out more simple: you're at the end of a sort of railroad track that circles around you and colored balls head toward you. Your only weapon is shooting colored balls at that track; match three or more of the same color and that part will disappear. In the end, you have to avoid the line of balls to make it all the way to your position. It's really as simple as it sounds (and looks even easier if you see it in action), but that doesn't make it a simple game. Oh, and the plot is virtually non-existent as well. You wash up on some island and some bad guys don't like it. You fight them. It's not going to win prizes in that aspect but I'd rather keep it like this than pitiful attempts to shoehorn in unnecessary drama (you don't make that shit up when playing sports either, right?).
That said...the game is far more complex than it looks at first glance. For one thing, the string of balls that come your way isn't endless. It depends on the score. Which means that striking combo's (which award more points), shooting through self-made openings for combo's behind the front lines and catching the bonusses that appear on the side of the tracks actually matter for other things than cosmetic reasons (the more you have of those, the faster the constant supply of balls stops). Chaining combo's tend to create more one-time bonusses on the track and those are things you need to rely on in the higher levels. So while quick calculations of where to shoot your balls still matter, thinking ahead (while under constantly building pressure) is important as well.




*as it stands, I'm compiling my personal list with favorite villains. It contains both movies, series, games and comic books. there, the PC characters make their appearance DESPITE being on the PC
 
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Black-Ice

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You dont see new advanced techniques for street fighter third strike/Killer Instinct/Tekken in 2014, 14 years after they release. They have a skillcap. Said Skillcap has yet to be reached in SSB Melee, it has been 14 years and there are still new advanced techniques being found,

.......Whaaaat?

Listen im sorry but you people must have been playing some next SSB melee super korean hyper version coz you're seeing things in this game that no normal person is.
Please stop comparing the latest fighters to Melee. Tekken Tag 2 is better than Super smash melee in every single way. Every
If its taken you 14 years to understand how to play Melee, you're a bad gamer imo.
 

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