Platinum on Japan dev 'decline': 'Tons of terrible Western

[Just Another Gamer]

I'll chip in my two cents.

I think the big problem is that Western developers have taken the reigns when it comes to pushing forward storytelling in games. When I think of powerful, gripping stories in recent years, I think of games like Bioshock, or the Mass Effect franchise, all of which came from the West. I've played plenty of Japanese games and enjoyed them, sure, but they often lack that punch a strong narrative can provide. I had fun with Resident Evil 5 and Spec Ops: The Line, but my frantic search for Konrad in the ruins of Dubai is going to stick with me a lot longer than... uh... that time I shot Wesker? You shoot Wesker, right?

(There's obviously going to be exceptions, but this is just the general trend I've noticed)

I find the storytelling to be a little subjective I mean the stories from what I seen from Japanese devs are more centered around a group of characters and how they interact with each other and stuff rather than something worldwide or just one character I mean all those games you listed to me have more of a focus only on a more world-like story or just focuses on the player character and nothing else.

I don't quite buy that. To go back to my examples, take Mass Effect; sure, there is the overarching plot with the Reapers, but Shepard's interactions with his squadmates is just as essential to the story. The camaraderie between Walker and his men, and how it disintegrates over the course of their hellish experiences in Dubai, is a very key element.

On the other hand, games like TWEWY or the Persona series (from what I understand) have their stories driven by some greater threat. They aren't just character study and nothing else.

Ah sorry I kinda messed up my response. I was typing my reply to 2 different topics at the time and was re-watching Doctor Who.

But I still think its more up to personal preference in this instance since I found with games like TWEWY and Persona that I actually enjoy more of the "being forced into helping others" instead of the whole "I must save the world because i'm the only one who can" attitude that usually comes from western games.

 

[Hop2089]

Well there's great Japanese devs. Like Platinum Games. And, um...

I'm drawing a blank.

I really hope you aren't serious.

We have Konami, Nintendo, Sega (Sonic Generations and Rhythm Thief), Level-5, Square Enix (TWEWY, Tactics Ogre), Atlus, Capcom, Bamco, Tecmo Koei and more. And don't even get me started with the hundreds of stellar Japanese-developed games released this-gen.

Konami hasn't made many great games that aren't Japan exclusives lately, I can name some good games they made in the past 2 years, none ever left Japan, heck there hasn't been another Yu-Gi-Oh game lately in any region even Japan. Tecmo Koei, outside of Samurai Warriors, they aren't too great. Sega's hit or miss but we do have PSO 2 which is a stellar game and Sonic Generations.

 

[Gahars]

@Just Another Gamer

I don't think that particular plot element is as common as you think it is (or exclusively Western).

Plus, that sort of plotline isn't inherently bad... but more often than that, it devolves into a half baked saturday morning cartoon lecture on the power of friendship.

 

[ChaosBoi]

Well there's great Japanese devs. Like Platinum Games. And, um...

I'm drawing a blank.

Some folks might say XSEED, Atlus, tri-ace, etc.

EDIT:

@[member='soulx']: Square-Enix hasn't been putting out quality games lately.

My vote goes to Atlus for sure. tr-Ace gets a prop from me for the Star Ocean series, but I could never really get into any of their other games for some reason. And XSEED is an American game publishing company, not a Japanese game dev.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

@Just Another Gamer

I don't think that particular plot element is as common as you think it is (or exclusively Western).

Plus, that sort of plotline isn't inherently bad... but more often than that, it devolves into a half baked saturday morning cartoon lecture on the power of friendship.

Well from all the more popular western made games I get that impression when I go to my friends to try it. I never said its bad I just find it annoying since the main character will always claim they are the only one who can save the world when its bloody clear that if this is real life there is probably more qualified people but whatever I grew out of watching those Saturday morning cartoons already.

Still I prefer the unique gems like the Persona series over alot of western games because it fits my interests and while it annoys me that alot of western games automatically trash Japanese games because it does have something they like I still enjoy them more.

 

[Gahars]

(To clarify: "Plus, that sort of plotline isn't inherently bad... but more often than that, it devolves into a half baked saturday morning cartoon lecture on the power of friendship." was referring to your plot type example from TWEWY or Persona)

 

[Qtis]

There are different markets for different games. Not everyone like all the games ever made, otherwise GBAtemp would be themed with Nintendogs (+ CATS!) as a forced theme.. Also Japanese game devs suck a big one compared to western ones in regards to advertising their games (be it old or new) at least here in Finland. Most interesting Japanese games I ever bought were based on recommendations from the 'temp or other gaming sites (metacritic too!).

 

[FAST6191]

Well at least we are off the "you can't say.... 'tis racist" nonsense.

I however feel the need to once more restate that my opinion of Hollywood is rather low.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

(To clarify: "Plus, that sort of plotline isn't inherently bad... but more often than that, it devolves into a half baked saturday morning cartoon lecture on the power of friendship." was referring to your plot type example from TWEWY or Persona)

Umm...I actually seen those cartoons and in none of them I see Japanese teenagers shooting themselves in the head to summon demons or using the demons to kill things, I have seen those in anime. But apart from that the stuff on those Saturday morning cartoons are more stupid than the ones thought up for Persona and TWEWY same goes for character development.

Well at least we are off the "you can't say.... 'tis racist" nonsense.

I however feel the need to once more restate that my opinion of Hollywood is rather low.

I think everyone's opinion of Hollywood is rather low at this point.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

I actually don't think Square Enix and Capcom count this gen but I never really got why someone who calls themselves a gamer plainly disregard and bash anything made in Japan and worshiping only western devs

...Which I'm not doing?

Also you're honestly a bit of a notorious weaboo and criticizing me for "bashing anything made in Japan" (which was never the case) seems like a very pot-kettle situation.

I've found western games in storytelling to tackle complex issues and have complex characters. Japanese storytelling has somehow fallen to a concept that "the more complicated it is, the better it is," which is absolute bull. I'll continue with Gahars' examples.

Specs Ops: The Line, my most recent circlejerk experience, really does a lot. It tackles the glorification of war in modern gaming, the horrors of war, PTSD, and explores the fragile psyche of Walker and his relationship to his men. Japanese games, um, I really can't say anything that special. The characters often feel like cut outs of certain attributes. There's always the super serious, troubled character, the brash, headstrong character, the quirky character for "comic relief", and the shy guy (not an actual Shy Guy). Western games do fall prey to a similar "cut out issue" (not to these cut outs but different ones) but their characters don't rely on those personality traits to reflect who they are, and they evolve out of those roles. Tali from Mass Effect starts off as the "shy character" but evolves into a much stronger woman by the third game.

Plus I never got how saying "Western games are shit" gets you a sweeping round of applause here but saying "Japanese games are shit" makes you a shallow, xenophobic gamer. You know what, I enjoy western games vastly more than Japanese games, but I play Japanese games and I enjoy them on occasion. Some hold a rank above some of my western games, some don't. I'm not a shallow gamer, I'm a gamer with a view.

 

[Master Mo]

He's right: both territories have nearly the same amount of shitty and good devs... Personally I kinda lean more towards Japanese developed games... But that just a matter of taste, since I think Bioware did some amazing games this gen and especially last gen or Rocksteady among many many others.

So I personally think it doesn't really matter...

 

[Foxi4]

@[member='soulx']: Square-Enix hasn't been putting out quality games lately.

you mean since the merger

Oh, you mean games like The 3rd Birthday, Dissidia, Dragon Quest IX? I'm specifically avoiding Western-style games here, sticking to the "Asian-Style" ones - otherwise I might as well drop the Deus Ex bomb on you and get on with life.

Regardless of country of origin, studios release good games and bad games - the rest is a matter of taste.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

I actually don't think Square Enix and Capcom count this gen but I never really got why someone who calls themselves a gamer plainly disregard and bash anything made in Japan and worshiping only western devs

...Which I'm not doing?

Also you're honestly a bit of a notorious weaboo and criticizing me for "bashing anything made in Japan" (which was never the case) seems like a very pot-kettle situation.

I've found western games in storytelling to tackle complex issues and have complex characters. Japanese storytelling has somehow fallen to a concept that "the more complicated it is, the better it is," which is absolute bull. I'll continue with Gahars' examples.

Specs Ops: The Line, my most recent circlejerk experience, really does a lot. It tackles the glorification of war in modern gaming, the horrors of war, PTSD, and explores the fragile psyche of Walker and his relationship to his men. Japanese games, um, I really can't say anything that special. The characters often feel like cut outs of certain attributes. There's always the super serious, troubled character, the brash, headstrong character, the quirky character for "comic relief", and the shy guy (not an actual Shy Guy). Western games do fall prey to a similar "cut out issue" (not to these cut outs but different ones) but their characters don't rely on those personality traits to reflect who they are, and they evolve out of those roles. Tali from Mass Effect starts off as the "shy character" but evolves into a much stronger woman by the third game.

Plus I never got how saying "Western games are shit" gets you a sweeping round of applause here but saying "Japanese games are shit" makes you a shallow, xenophobic gamer. You know what, I enjoy western games vastly more than Japanese games, but I play Japanese games and I enjoy them on occasion. Some hold a rank above some of my western games, some don't. I'm not a shallow gamer, I'm a gamer with a view.

I never directed that at you and made a general comment about gamers in general but whatever.

It makes me laugh that you go around calling people a weeaboo when its clear you don't understand the word in the first place and use it as a shit attempt to bash anyone who speaks against anything made in america.

Strange how I never said that Japanese storytelling is better but I said I prefer it to the ones in western games and I never disagreed that both types of story telling has their own cut out characters they always use but to respond to them evolving you make it sound like that is the only limited to western games when that happens in any form of storytelling made from anywhere so its not a new things that western storytelling invented.

You come off as a xenophobic shallow ass who hates anything with several exceptions that comes out of Japan because its Japanese and criticize anyone who wants the game to have anything original from any game in the localized product, now thats the impression you make but I assume your not but thats a really big assumption. Funny how I never once said western games are shit but I don't like them as much as games made from Japan but that somehow makes me a weeaboo but liking western games more just makes you a gamer with a view? Contradictive much.

 

[Deleted member 194275]

I think that is a bit obvious that jap devs create 100 cartoonish-shit for each 1 good game. It is a bit obvious too, that Japanese put people screaming and talking a lot during the games (even the good ones) and with that they ruin all the experience of their games. But the fact is that the westerns produce a lot of shit too. We have tons of "indie platformers" for example, we have tons of generic FPS games and every year we have a game called FIFA / NFL / NBA / PES / MLB 20XX which don't change a thing but the teams' line ups.

My opinion is that all over the World (and Japan is part of World) we have a thousand of games released every year, but only 10 or less are really good games.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

I never directed that at you and made a general comment about gamers in general but whatever.

It makes me laugh that you go around calling people a weeaboo when its clear you don't understand the word in the first place and use it as a shit attempt to bash anyone who speaks against anything made in america.

Strange how I never said that Japanese storytelling is better but I said I prefer it to the ones in western games and I never disagreed that both types of story telling has their own cut out characters they always use but to respond to them evolving you make it sound like that is the only limited to western games when that happens in any form of storytelling made from anywhere so its not a new things that western storytelling invented.

You come off as a xenophobic shallow ass who hates anything with several exceptions that comes out of Japan because its Japanese and criticize anyone who wants the game to have anything original from any game in the localized product, now thats the impression you make but I assume your not but thats a really big assumption. Funny how I never once said western games are shit but I don't like them as much as games made from Japan but that somehow makes me a weeaboo but liking western games more just makes you a gamer with a view? Contradictive much.

Wow you really go berserk over the word weaboo. I'll make a note of it.

I was more so riffing off Gahars' on western storytelling and that it's a very essential part of (most) games and was using it to provide some context on my preference of western over Japanese. I wasn't really directing it as if you were hating on it or something along those lines. A mistake on both our parts.

But of course that doesn't exactly entitle you towards calling me a "xenophobic shallow ass" which is just such a lovely comment. Speaking of ass there seems to be a lot of things pulled out of there. I don't criticize anything Japanese because it's Japanese, I do because I think it's shit. If you're really bringing in the long-running debate of subs vs. dubs (which it really seems you are) then I don't know what to say other than "get over it." It was a thread that died months ago and it's an issue that comes up once in a blue moon. How is it bad for me to prefer a dub in my own language? I don't hate games that include other languages, I'll applaud games that do (Lost Odyssey is a good example coming with a full suite of voice acting for Japanese, English, German, and French). I don't appreciate being called a "xenophobic shallow ass" over one small thing on subs vs. dubs. Xenophobia extends to complete and utter disregard, fear, or ignorance of another culture. Being critical of video games (which is hardly a cornerstone of any culture) hardly sticks me with the "xenophobic" nametag. I suggest you research your definitions before calling someone something as broad as "xenophobic". The "shallow ass" just feels like cherry on top.

EDIT: But for the sake of the thread, I suggest we drop our "weaboo" and "xenophobic shallow ass" comments altogether and get on with the discussion on a less aggressive tone. That applies towards both of us.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

Wow you really go berserk over the word weaboo. I'll make a note of it.

I was more so riffing off Gahars' on western storytelling and that it's a very essential part of (most) games and was using it to provide some context on my preference of western over Japanese. I wasn't really directing it as if you were hating on it or something along those lines. A mistake on both our parts.

But of course that doesn't exactly entitle you towards calling me a "xenophobic shallow ass" which is just such a lovely comment. Speaking of ass there seems to be a lot of things pulled out of there. I don't criticize anything Japanese because it's Japanese, I do because I think it's shit. If you're really bringing in the long-running debate of subs vs. dubs (which it really seems you are) then I don't know what to say other than "get over it." It was a thread that died months ago and it's an issue that comes up once in a blue moon. How is it bad for me to prefer a dub in my own language? I don't hate games that include other languages, I'll applaud games that do (Lost Odyssey is a good example coming with a full suite of voice acting for Japanese, English, German, and French). I don't appreciate being called a "xenophobic shallow ass" over one small thing on subs vs. dubs. Xenophobia extends to complete and utter disregard, fear, or ignorance of another culture. Being critical of video games (which is hardly a cornerstone of any culture) hardly sticks me with the "xenophobic" nametag. I suggest you research your definitions before calling someone something as broad as "xenophobic". The "shallow ass" just feels like cherry on top.

Well if you must know I'm Vietnamese and I never thought of anything Japanese to be better than my Viet culture and I respect both cultures equally its just I view Japanese culture superior to western culture.

Well atleast that was cleared up.

I never called you one I said you come off as one in how I saw you respond to me and others, somehow you only briefly read it before responding. I never said it was bad for you to prefer dubs I couldn't care less if you do or not but to automatically bash someone who prefers subs to dubs then thats where my problem is and why I respond in the way I do. In fairness you said I called you xenophobic so I just used that to sum up how I felt you respond to those who has a different view than you but again that was how I saw it and its my own perspective. In all honesty I do hope we can get over this but somehow I doubt it since majority of these responses? I don't know, are usually caused by a difference of opinion anyway.

 

[Deleted_171835]

...Which I'm not doing?

Also you're honestly a bit of a notorious weaboo and criticizing me for "bashing anything made in Japan" (which was never the case) seems like a very pot-kettle situation.

I've found western games in storytelling to tackle complex issues and have complex characters. Japanese storytelling has somehow fallen to a concept that "the more complicated it is, the better it is," which is absolute bull. I'll continue with Gahars' examples.

Specs Ops: The Line, my most recent circlejerk experience, really does a lot. It tackles the glorification of war in modern gaming, the horrors of war, PTSD, and explores the fragile psyche of Walker and his relationship to his men. Japanese games, um, I really can't say anything that special. The characters often feel like cut outs of certain attributes. There's always the super serious, troubled character, the brash, headstrong character, the quirky character for "comic relief", and the shy guy (not an actual Shy Guy). Western games do fall prey to a similar "cut out issue" (not to these cut outs but different ones) but their characters don't rely on those personality traits to reflect who they are, and they evolve out of those roles. Tali from Mass Effect starts off as the "shy character" but evolves into a much stronger woman by the third game.

Plus I never got how saying "Western games are shit" gets you a sweeping round of applause here but saying "Japanese games are shit" makes you a shallow, xenophobic gamer. You know what, I enjoy western games vastly more than Japanese games, but I play Japanese games and I enjoy them on occasion. Some hold a rank above some of my western games, some don't. I'm not a shallow gamer, I'm a gamer with a view.

The funny thing is that you're the only one on GBAtemp that I've seen generalizing Japanese games and calling most of them shit. Just look at the first post in this thread where you essentially said that the only great Japanese dev is Platinum Games. And when people call you out for this shit, "EVERYONE IS BASHING YOU FOR NO REASON".

You and @Gahars mentioned that you don't think storytelling in Japanese games is very good.

• 999
• TWEWY
• Professor Layton (series)
• Phoenix Wright (series)
• Persona 4
• Nier
• Mother 3
• Metal Gear Solid (series)
• Last Window
• Ghost Trick

These are all games with great stories that were developed in Japan.




My stance on this is that I simply like good games and I get enjoyable things from both Western (Deus Ex: HR, Portal 2 and Metroid Prime) and Japanese (Hotel Dusk/Last Window, MGS3 and Ghost Trick) developers.

 

[Gahars]

Umm...I actually seen those cartoons and in none of them I see Japanese teenagers shooting themselves in the head to summon demons or using the demons to kill things, I have seen those in anime. But apart from that the stuff on those Saturday morning cartoons are more stupid than the ones thought up for Persona and TWEWY same goes for character development.

...What? We're talking thematically, so that's completely irrelevant. (Also, "They are more stupid" - Great refutation, buddy).

Well if you must know I'm Vietnamese and I never thought of anything Japanese to be better than my Viet culture and I respect both cultures equally its just I view Japanese culture superior to western culture.

Million dollar quote of the day, folks. I'd think of a response... but it kind of says everything, doesn't it?

@[member='soulx']

I'm not saying the storylines in Japanese aren't very good; I'm saying they aren't pushing it forward in the way they once were. (They may be fine, but are Layton, or AA, or even MGS for that matter, on the same level as Spec Ops, Mass Effect, or Portal? I think not.)

That's an important distinction.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

Umm...I actually seen those cartoons and in none of them I see Japanese teenagers shooting themselves in the head to summon demons or using the demons to kill things, I have seen those in anime. But apart from that the stuff on those Saturday morning cartoons are more stupid than the ones thought up for Persona and TWEWY same goes for character development.

...What? We're talking thematically, so that's completely irrelevant. (Also, "They are more stupid" - Great refutation, buddy).

Oh then I guess I misunderstood what you meant.

Well if you must know I'm Vietnamese and I never thought of anything Japanese to be better than my Viet culture and I respect both cultures equally its just I view Japanese culture superior to western culture.

Million dollar quote of the day, folks. I'd think of a response... but it kind of says everything, doesn't it?

Sarcasm?

 

[Gahars]

Sarcasm?

If you're going for sarcasm, you do realize that tone doesn't carry over text. Also...