Your thoughts on suicide

[Ace Gunman]

Holy crap Ace, that is a lot to take in. Your views are pretty much mine, just far, far better iterated with personal experience that I lack. Personal experience I hope to never have.

There are moments of weakness where you have no choice but to accept it, and I should consider that it isn't always an act of selfishness. What you present are some very extreme situations, though I do know they happen, some more often than we would like to think. You present special cases though where there is no possibility of things ever getting better. The person has literally lost every possible thing in life that any person could consider is worth living for. There, "manning up," reconsidering things, those just aren't options. At that point, I don't even think it can be considered selfish if what you are doing may raise the quality of life for others (ie: The family thing where the person would just have that feeling of utter hopelessness that would be irreparable in any situation, thus, they would more than likely know at that point that they would only serve as an obstacle for others while knowing that they are as such).

The selfishness is something that I realize sits on both sides of the debate. Where I feel it ends though is where the person not only doesn't want the person to kill them self, but for the reason that they want to help to get them back on their feet. There is still that selfishness present, but with an ulterior motive that is hard to perceive as such.

I suppose there are instances where suicide is truly the only way. I will still never support it, but I can understand it in such extreme circumstances. I suppose Superman said it best. Incredible words that should be taken to heart. I have to wonder what possible experiences the writer(s) of that issue may have had to generate such a caption.

I admit I went to extreme examples in my post, that was really more for the benefit of those who feel there is no appropriate time for suicide, that there is never a cause for taking your life. I would disagree with that, of course. With that said, I do think that most lives can be improved, and especially for the teenage demographic who is by far the most prone to suicide (them and dentists, amirite?

), usually waiting it out will see things improve.

I developed suicidal thoughts as early as age 8 and well into my late teenage years. I'm sure an undeveloped and rapidly growing human brain played some part in that, but it was not strictly a chemical issue. I was legitimately unhappy with my life. It was not an awful life, I just did not care all that much for it. At the root of the problem, though, I really just did not like myself very much.

Regardless of that, I thought about it logically, and decided to wait until I was in my 20s to make a decision on the matter. I was aware that my mind was still developing, and that, logically, I could not say without a shadow of a doubt that a decade or so would not change things. Lo and behold, things did improve for the better. I became comfortable in my own skin and the thoughts more or less dissipated. I won't say I have a grand life and that there is no room for improvement, in fact I'll go on record and say that my life is probably only 20% of what I wish it would be (within the realm of reason), but waiting and thinking things through did help.

That would be the advice I would give to the youngins, just stick it out at least until you can make a more informed decision. Weigh all the options, and heck, while you are at it, consider that advice from Superman. Even at my worst I could not say I expected to never have another happy day.

With all of that in mind, I still think there are less extreme situations where your life has not turned out and it may be too late to go back and change things, so the option you come to is to remove yourself from this life. Maybe you have valid reasons, maybe you don't, but it is an understandable perspective. I believe that 90% of the time it is not too late to make a positive change, but there are cases where you don't have the funds to go back to school/etc and completely redo your life from the ground up at age 40.

If you truly feel that suicide is for the best, I will trust your judgment, but I will at the very least attempt to walk someone through the alternatives and see if there is any hope, there usually is.

 

[nutella]

Anyone seen 127 hours? I know it's not really about suicide, but Christ, you talk about little hope. This guy was almost guaranteed a painfully slow and horrible death.

Just food for thought, didn't really have much to say that hasn't been said or without delving into my own life.

 

[Urza]

@Urza: As I have said many times, there is nothing after. If you commit suicide, you are just worm food. Others will still remember you though. At the very least you can attempt to leave a memory behind that others can remember you by. In a way, you aren't truly gone as the memory remains, but you as a being are gone. You no longer have any say in what people think of you. Can what people think of you become worm food?

And as I have stated at least twice now: if you are left with nothing, you have no memory of them, of your life, of anything. Nothing from your mortal life is relevant because you essentially cease to exist (as a conscious entity).

 

[Nathan Drake]

@Urza: As I have said many times, there is nothing after. If you commit suicide, you are just worm food. Others will still remember you though. At the very least you can attempt to leave a memory behind that others can remember you by. In a way, you aren't truly gone as the memory remains, but you as a being are gone. You no longer have any say in what people think of you. Can what people think of you become worm food?

And as I have stated at least twice now: if you are left with nothing, you have no memory of them, of your life, of anything. Nothing from your mortal life is relevant because you essentially cease to exist (as a conscious entity).

Yes, you have nothing. You no longer have memories, you don't even have a brain. I have been saying that you leave behind a memory implanted in others. It is not yours to do with what you want. It is yours in a way when you are alive though. You get to change and manipulate it to how you like. Once you're dead though, what is there, in the minds of others, is there to stay. You do not completely disappear in every way when you die. You are actually worm food, that isn't gonna change anytime soon for a dead person.

It's all about what you leave behind in the memories of others (when it is less an inevitability, more a choice).

You miss the point time and time again though, I'm done trying to communicate it in a way that you understand, as either you are trying not to understand it, or truly just do not understand what I'm saying.

 

[Urza]

@Urza: As I have said many times, there is nothing after. If you commit suicide, you are just worm food. Others will still remember you though. At the very least you can attempt to leave a memory behind that others can remember you by. In a way, you aren't truly gone as the memory remains, but you as a being are gone. You no longer have any say in what people think of you. Can what people think of you become worm food?

And as I have stated at least twice now: if you are left with nothing, you have no memory of them, of your life, of anything. Nothing from your mortal life is relevant because you essentially cease to exist (as a conscious entity).

Yes, you have nothing. You no longer have memories, you don't even have a brain. I have been saying that you leave behind a memory implanted in others. It is not yours to do with what you want. It is yours in a way when you are alive though. You get to change and manipulate it to how you like. Once you're dead though, what is there, in the minds of others, is there to stay. You do not completely disappear in every way when you die. You are actually worm food, that isn't gonna change anytime soon for a dead person.

It's all about what you leave behind in the memories of others (when it is less an inevitability, more a choice).

You miss the point time and time again though, I'm done trying to communicate it in a way that you understand, as either you are trying not to understand it, or truly just do not understand what I'm saying.

I understand completely what you've said. It is you who keeps missing my point.

For the third or fourth time now, and as clear as I can make it:
What memories you leave others with (or anything that takes place during your mortality) is completely irrelevant to you if you are dead and have no mind.

 

[Nathan Drake]

What you aren't understanding is that you lose the ability to get to say what is or isn't relevant about you once you are gone. A person could remember even the pettiest, most irrelevant thing about you as far as you are concerned, but it could be as relevant as possible to them.

You fail to grasp the idea of leaving behind a memory. Just because you lose the ability to make and shape those memories doesn't magically make them irrelevant to any part of their life because you removed yourself.

You're final choice is committing suicide. You have no say after as to any aspect, especially when it comes to the relevance of memories or anything of the like.

 

[Urza]

What you aren't understanding is that you lose the ability to get to say what is or isn't relevant about you once you are gone. A person could remember even the pettiest, most irrelevant thing about you as far as you are concerned, but it could be as relevant as possible to them.

You fail to grasp the idea of leaving behind a memory. Just because you lose the ability to make and shape those memories doesn't magically make them irrelevant to any part of their life because you removed yourself.

You're final choice is committing suicide. You have no say after as to any aspect, especially when it comes to the relevance of memories or anything of the like.

You're dead. You have no mind, no perception. Nothing is relevant.

Unless you think you're coming back as a ghost, floating above your relatives listening in on their conversations about you, nothing you're really saying makes any sense.

 

[hullo8d]

What you aren't understanding is that you lose the ability to get to say what is or isn't relevant about you once you are gone. A person could remember even the pettiest, most irrelevant thing about you as far as you are concerned, but it could be as relevant as possible to them.

You fail to grasp the idea of leaving behind a memory. Just because you lose the ability to make and shape those memories doesn't magically make them irrelevant to any part of their life because you removed yourself.

You're final choice is committing suicide. You have no say after as to any aspect, especially when it comes to the relevance of memories or anything of the like.

When your lying on your death bed, and you can feel your life withering away, you may come to realize that it really isn't you who's ending, it's the world.

 

[Nathan Drake]

You're dead. You have no mind, no perception. Nothing is relevant.

Unless you think you're coming back as a ghost, floating above your relatives listening in on their conversations about you, nothing you're really saying makes any sense.

It is all irrelevant to you. When considering it revolving entirely around you, a purely selfish act, yes, it is completely irrelevant.

What is relevant to others though does not have to be relevant to you. What if a memory of you is relevant to a conversation about, say, suicide? There, it has some relevance. Not to you, but to others. You are viewing it only from the point of the one who committed the act, not others who may have been connected in some way to the one that did it.

 

[Urza]

You're dead. You have no mind, no perception. Nothing is relevant.

Unless you think you're coming back as a ghost, floating above your relatives listening in on their conversations about you, nothing you're really saying makes any sense.

It is all irrelevant to you. When considering it revolving entirely around you, a purely selfish act, yes, it is completely irrelevant.

What is relevant to others though does not have to be relevant to you. What if a memory of you is relevant to a conversation about, say, suicide? There, it has some relevance. Not to you, but to others. You are viewing it only from the point of the one who committed the act, not others who may have been connected in some way to the one that did it.

At the root of any action any human takes, it is for one's own best interest.

 

[Nathan Drake]

At the root of any action any human takes, it is for one's own best interest.

That is basic instinct. We are always looking out for our own best interests at heart.

Suicide goes against those basic instincts though. The instinct of survival primarily.

 

[Sterling]

You're dead. You have no mind, no perception. Nothing is relevant.

Unless you think you're coming back as a ghost, floating above your relatives listening in on their conversations about you, nothing you're really saying makes any sense.

It is all irrelevant to you. When considering it revolving entirely around you, a purely selfish act, yes, it is completely irrelevant.

What is relevant to others though does not have to be relevant to you. What if a memory of you is relevant to a conversation about, say, suicide? There, it has some relevance. Not to you, but to others. You are viewing it only from the point of the one who committed the act, not others who may have been connected in some way to the one that did it.

At the root of any action any human takes, it is for one's own best interest.

That applies for everyone? There are people who are very giving, selfless, and otherwise the exact opposite of the scourge of humanity. What makes you state such a thing as fact when you cannot speak for anyone but yourself.


QUOTE(Nathan Drake @ Jan 15 2011, 03:00 AM) QUOTE(Urza @ Jan 15 2011, 12:59 AM)

At the root of any action any human takes, it is for one's own best interest.

That is basic instinct. We are always looking out for our own best interests at heart.

Suicide goes against those basic instincts though. The instinct of survival primarily.

I have to differ on the above that everyone follows the basic interest of "whatever is best for me". The line below it contradicts that everyone follows their own instincts.

 

[Urza]

At the root of any action any human takes, it is for one's own best interest.

That is basic instinct. We are always looking out for our own best interests at heart.

Suicide goes against those basic instincts though. The instinct of survival primarily.

The instinct of survival is not inherent in all people at all times (as human suicide existing shows).

The instinct to act in what you believe your own best interest, is. This may include the ending of whatever suffering you may be facing through killing yourself.

Concern for those who may be hurt by your death is also acting in what your mind perceives is your own best interest.

QUOTE

That applies for everyone? There are people who are very giving, selfless, and otherwise the exact opposite of the scourge of humanity. What makes you state such a thing as fact when you cannot speak for anyone but yourself.

Such people act in that way because they get something out of it. Maybe a sense of fulfillment from helping, a feeling of joy, of hope, whatever it may be. It is a fact that is how our brains are wired.

It only appears selfless in contrast to the actions of other people.

 

[Sterling]

Such people act in that way because they get something out of it. Maybe a sense of fulfillment from helping, a feeling of joy, of hope, whatever it may be. It is a fact that is how our brains are wired.

It only appears selfless in contrast to the actions of other people.

You speak the truth. I am one of those people. I get very little satisfaction (most of the time) out of doing things only for myself. So, I guess this one is quoted for truth.

 

[Sephi]

It's not my business if a human kills itself purposely.

 

[Nathan Drake]

Self preservation is present in every human. It isn't something that you are just born without. Suicide is a more a weakening of resolve that results in a deterioration self preservation.

I find it somewhat odd that so many can act against something such as that so easily.

Acting in our best interest though is an act of self preservation in itself. Acting in our best interest will ultimately extend our time in existence (in most cases). Some times though, we perceive wrongly what we think to be our best interest. We have convinced ourselves we think it is, when truly it is not.

For suicide though, there are many gray areas in that respect. With many people, it's hard to tell if it was truly in their best interest (if it isn't an extreme case where it was very obvious that it was).

 

[Apk07]

The OP asked for your opinions on suicide, not your opinions on other people's opinions.

This topic should be a list of opinions, not conversation about each other's morals


My two cents: Suicide is selfish for any physically healthy person, unless you've exhausted every possible alternative to becoming happy. Suicidal people don't go out of their way to hunt for alternatives to begin with. I'd almost call them lazy to an extent (not to say I'm not a lazy slob myself). They feel like they have nothing left to live for, which in most cases isn't true, they're just too lazy to put forth the effort to find it. Its an easy-out, and taking the easy road isn't always the brightest choice.

 

[OSW]

couple of things... apologies if it's rather disjointed (I couldn't be bothered to work on phrasing things better)

X.
High suicide rates in todays society might be a reflection that life isn't as simple as it used to be. People are preoccupied with a lot of unimportant shit.

Think about our ancestors - their life wasn't about money, careers, drugs, marriage (to some degree) and all the shit that is in today's society. In fact, their prime motivation for most things was survival! (as opposed to the death that suicide brings).
- If they needed food, theyd just go out and hunt shit, they didn't need to work long hours to get a meal
- If they wanted entertainment/acceptance, they did the raw human activities, sex, dance, rituals and all that shit, not drugs and alcohol or whatever.
- Partners had to treat each other well, for the sake of the community, to get food, again because their goal was survival. Exclusivity wasn't necessary. Men probably had a lot more sex (lol).

It's not exactly that we as humans have changed (we have always been selfish creatures), but the way we respond to our world seems to have changed for the worse

X.
By nature we are truly selfish beings... so you can't really fault someone for not thinking about the people around them when they commit suicide. That being said, suicide is a very strange and horrid thing. Surely anyone who commits the act must have some kind of mental problem - whether that be a tendency to focus on negative things, whether they don't feel important or whatever. I consider that a serious problem. The only time I can see suicide as acceptable is when the person is under an intense physical or mental pain such as torture or disease. These kinds of circumstances are rare and push us past our normal frame of mind, even to radical decisions.
However, if people consider their lives to be in intense pain due to social issues etc, they cannot be equally treated. This kind of situation reflects mental instability, as in their situation most people would grit through it or try and make changes to improve their life. We are naturally RISK AVERSE, and suicide is a big risk!


Perhaps the decision process or suicide could be displayed as a decision process tree (too lazy to draw, so i numbered). To progress down the tree at each point becomes less likely to occur.

1. Living

2. Life isn't going well (subjectively), what should I do?
I work on it and things get better (go back to 1.)
I work on it and things stay bad (go to 3.)
I'm to weak/lazy to make an effort (go to 3.)

3. I can commit suicide, but I don't know what will happen after I die (the unknown).
I don't take the chance as with the majority of humans (go back to 1.)
I'm mentally incapable of considering the possible consequences of death (commits suicide)
I have a religious or personal belief that death will be better than life (commits suicide)


X.
I really hate when people who suffer minor problems even suggest the idea of suicide (whether they had really contemplated it or not). I know one girl like this who often overdramatizes small issues and fights in her life. Coincidentally she herself lost someone close through suicide, and it was very traumatising to her. It's strange though, I feel like if I was in her position of losing someone through suicide, after enduring the pain I'm almost certain that I would be extremely against the entire notion.

X.
Everyone dies one day. Even if there is a better afterlife, is it really such a good idea to cut short your current life in chase of the unknown. Even if you are suffering, maybe that will help you to better appreciate the afterlife, or to learn from it.

"A friend of mine, many years ago, took her life. She was terminally ill, every day she was in agony, and she decided one day that she knew-- knew without question-- that she would never have another happy day. And see... well, I guess you could say she checked out early. I understood, I didn't approve, I still don't, but I understood.

If you honestly believe, in your heart of hearts, that you will never, ever have another happy day... then step out into the air. I'll keep my promise, I won't stop you.

But if you think there's a chance-- no matter how small-- that there might just be one more happy day out there-- --then take my hand."

Words to live by, I think.

Great quote, thank you Ace.. That's the kinda thing I could really see gettin through to someone with suicidal thoughts.

 

[Infinite Zero]

This girl is going to commit suicide any time soon and I don't know what to do
http://thepoltergeist.tumblr.com/

 

[DryYoshi]

I think people who do it are just plain messed up.