Hacking Wii u and Wii U game pad hack talk to be presented soon at CCC/30c3

delroth

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
45
Trophies
0
Age
30
XP
296
Country
Swaziland
Want a proof? Watch our GamePad talk video, notice that we actually have stuff working and we demo it live. Then realize that we've been working closely with f0f for a while and they've been providing us with a lot of Wii U info, including PPC side and ARM side binaries, unencrypted.

Could people stop being stupid? Oh wait, GBAtemp.
 

rednekcowboy

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
242
Trophies
0
Age
46
XP
315
Country
Canada
If by "blind devotion" you mean trusting the word of people I was fortunate enough to be allowed to see the working process of on the HBC - along with knowledge of all their past verifiable work on many, many devices - I plead guilty. Everything I saw, public or private, earned them that trust. I don't know about you (or care) but if friends and associates have earned that trust - and in this field they have an exemplary record over many, many years - then yes, I'll accept things I know are entirely possible from them. I know them, and I judge that based on knowledge not `devotion`. Give me a reason I shouldn't, with some kind of actual non conspiracist drivel evidence to back it up. I've been asking for that for some time.


I have given you plenty of reasons why you shouldn't. I don't trust anyone, no matter what their history. I trust in results. If you say you can do something, show me you can do it. If not, don't bother telling me because, quite frankly, boasting to boost your own ego really doesn't score any points with me.

People tend to do great for a certain amount of time and earn enough trust to a point where they feel they can get away with anything. This is just human nature. When you step back and look at the whole situation, things don't add up.

I should state here, that I have very little doubt that f0f has done what they said they have done. I have very serious doubts as to actually how useful it is to anyone and their motivations behind keeping their work hidden from the public view. All of the reasons they state they are holding onto the cards were all reasons that were in plain view before they started their work on the Wii U, making those excuses completely unbelievable because if those reasons are true, they would never have started this whole thing in the first place. I also have some serious doubts, because of the shadiness of everything, about the exploit itself and just how useful it actually is as they never accomplished what they started out to do and could be yet another reason why they are being so tight-lipped about releasing it.

I have no idea what their true motivations are, I can and have speculated as it really is not that complicated as there is only a couple of reasons that it could possibly be and I have said they are well within their rights to hold onto whatever they have as those results are from the work they did, however at least be honest about why you are holding all the cards close to your vest.
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,375
Country
United Kingdom
10 So, educate us and explain how they are proof enough?
They might become proof if someone else manages to extract the same information from the system?
At that moment, they will only proof that f0f got that information first..
At this moment, there is not someone else...
So, are you guilty until proven not guilty....?
Or not guilty until proven guilty...?
Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt Team f0f did what they said they did.
I just fail to understand how the hashes are proof?
goto 10
Sorry for my crappy basic.. I am not that good in ppc assembly...

In terms of pure "would it stand up in court?" you are correct it does not count. Given they also released updated versions of their stuff for the vWii mode they at least have that as well as the other actually released stuff for the Wii U. However between their existing reputation and the damage that would be done if they were faking it (the hashes are distributed far and wide, way beyond what they can claw back).

If they wanted to trick everybody, see also the "new exploit in hannah montana" fake from a while back, then they could but this is very far from that.

Back to the vWii stuff then in security in general there is a phrase along the lines of "trust but verify" if you actually want to get anything done. The vWii stuff alone does that for me.
 

obcd

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
1,594
Trophies
0
XP
432
Country
Belgium
I will repeat myself, I don't doubt Team f0f did what they said they did.
I just don't understand how the hashes are a proof at the moment.
Which is why I ask people who say they are to explain how they are.
So, I am not asking proof for f0f findings.
Just asking how the hashes are a proof. Trying to learn something here.
 

Stalkid64X

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
56
Trophies
0
Age
43
XP
91
Country
One... last... time...
They are proof because anyone with equal access - mostly Nintendo in this case - can check them for themselves. That was the intent of them. No more, no less. They are something that anyone who gets there later can see as demonstrating they got there first. That is why given the inevitability that in time someone will be able to check it would be utterly stupid to have lied.
 

Ray Lewis

Banned!
Banned
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
1,518
Trophies
0
XP
419
Country
United States
Video on retail unit demonstrating unsigned code running. Delroth showed a vid. Gave files to delroth but won't to Maxternal for tri core "sdk linux"? Why not tell delroth to do it all himself as some did to Maxternal? Trying to understand the rational. "Make sdk" yet give nothing beyond a known racing weakness for smp processors. None of us know the hashes and good, people who did it know...and if others hash files they will know f0f was there first. Awesome. Again, why post here if this is gbafail and users are ignorant? I am inclined to believe it was hacked...so what is the issue recording a quick clip showing unsigned code running? We are "too stupid" for not having files to check hashes against so help us by giving a video, roflmo.
 

Stalkid64X

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
56
Trophies
0
Age
43
XP
91
Country
Because it's not about satisfying your curiousity or proving it to you. It's simply "we did this, and this is evidence that can demonstrate it".
 
  • Like
Reactions: OncleJulien

obcd

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
1,594
Trophies
0
XP
432
Country
Belgium
They are proof because anyone with equal access - mostly Nintendo in this case - can check them for themselves
Not mostly, only Nintendo at the moment...
There is not anyone with equal access. (At least not anyone known at the moment)
So, what's the point of giving Nintendo that proof?
I mean, isn't it better to keep that information private to them, to keep the exploitable holes open as long as possible?
The only thing I can think off is to say, hey, we did it first...
 

Stalkid64X

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
56
Trophies
0
Age
43
XP
91
Country
And that's it. It's `hey, we beat your security, you can check the claim against this`.
It is that simple. That's the game. No grand secret, no quest for publicity. Technical one-upmanship.
There. Now you have all you need to understand. Really.
 

rednekcowboy

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
242
Trophies
0
Age
46
XP
315
Country
Canada
One... last... time...
They are proof because anyone with equal access - mostly Nintendo in this case - can check them for themselves. That was the intent of them. No more, no less. They are something that anyone who gets there later can see as demonstrating they got there first. That is why given the inevitability that in time someone will be able to check it would be utterly stupid to have lied.

but you need to go deeper than that. Again you are just taking things at face value without asking the most important question--why.

That is what I'm talking about when referencing your blind devotion. As I've said, I have little doubt they did what they said they did. My doubts come to everything that has come after what they said they did. None of it makes any sense whatsoever and nothing adds up. You like to ignore this part and it's the most important part of all, especially if you are going to the lengths you are going to defend them and belittle every one who has doubts.

Why are they so hell bent on proving anything to Nintendo
Why use flimsy excuses to keep these exploit to themselves (they have no obligation to release, but at least have the courage of your convictions and tell the truth and not hide behind some lame lie).
Why not reveal until 1 year later that they have actually not completely hacked the system as they had previously stated? (before you jump all over me, unless I missed something, this is the first time they have stated anything about not being able to crack the bootrom).
Why, if there was never an intended release, announce to the world that they were and have hacked the console?
Why release the hashes with an imbedded image of trollface? (and no, if it's "It was directed at Ninty", I don't buy it for a second).
Why create such a circus and cause such an excitement in the community only to bow out later and say "meh, not worth it" (though I believe my question about the bootrom answers this question).

So far there is no, nadda, 0 credible answers to any of these questions. It just baffles me as to why no one else is asking them--worse than that. Choose to ignore them completely and then get all pissy at anyone who dare asks them....

And that's it. It's `hey, we beat your security, you can check the claim against this`.
It is that simple.

But it's not that simple. Why do they have such a hard-on to show Ninty what they can do? Doesn't make sense that they've had to keep this circus going for over a year just for the purpose of "poking the bear" Especially when that "bear" is completely ignoring you from the word "go."
 

obcd

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
1,594
Trophies
0
XP
432
Country
Belgium
Does anyone know if we should follow the drunken cat approach or the other approach Comex is talking about last.
(Be aware of the brick risk...:( )
 

Schizoanalysis

From somewhere inside the rabbit hole...
Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
2,804
Trophies
1
Location
...
Website
Visit site
XP
1,204
Country
Simple answer: It gives them pleasure to do so.


Why do you play video games? For the pleasure of beating someone/something else.
Why do they do it? For the pleasure of beating Nintendo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: filfat

Stalkid64X

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
56
Trophies
0
Age
43
XP
91
Country
^That. Absolutely one hundred pergoddamncent THAT.

Because, once again... that is the `hacking` game. It's the point of things like CCC to celebrate.
That's the motive and the reward. I know it's hard for the social networking generation to comprehend it not being about `you` or having to demonstrate it to you, but that is really, truly, absolutely it.
You can either understand that as the philosophy, or not. I've put it as plainly as possible to try to help at least some do so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dalc789

g4jek8j54

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
532
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
437
Country
United States
Not saying they are fake or real, but at this point they are just as likely as that youtube video that you referenced as there is no proof either way for either the hashes or the video. We can all speculate as to what is likely and what is more probable than not, but at this point there is no proof of anything.

I understand that most people can't really "verify" that those hashes are legit (other than Nintendo, of course), but I disagree with the claim that they are "just as likely as that youtube video." Team Twiizers/fail0verflow is a highly respected hacking group, with plenty of previous proof to back it up (Twilight Hack, signing bug, Homebrew Channel, etc.) That "Four Horsemen" group has no previous work that they can point to, and the "evidence" that they have released so far is highly suspicious. If fail0verflow was some group that nobody had ever heard of before, then I would tend to agree that they didn't prove anything by releasing those hashes. However, I don't see any motive for them to release fake hashes, as it would just tarnish their reputation if they were later exposed as fraudulent. The hashes can be verified by Nintendo, and I bet that is really all that they care about. I'm betting that they couldn't care less if people like me and you believe them or not.
 

rednekcowboy

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
242
Trophies
0
Age
46
XP
315
Country
Canada
Simple answer: It gives them pleasure to do so.


Why do you play video games? For the pleasure of beating someone/something else.
Why do they do it? For the pleasure of beating Nintendo.


Yes, but I then don't have to announce to the world, write blogs, hold conferences, etc, etc,

Because, once again... that is the `hacking` game. It's the point of things like CCC to celebrate.
That's the motive and the reward. I know it's hard for the social networking generation to comprehend it not being about `you` or having to demonstrate it to you, but that is really, truly, absolutely it.
You can either understand that as the philosophy, or not. I've put it as plainly as possible to try to help at least some do so.

Son, I would hazard a guess that I've likely been around as long, if not longer than you. If that's all there was to it, it wouldn't still be ongoing. Most hackers--true hackers, don't do everything that f0f has done thus far and if you truly know how it works behind the scene, then normally you are correct. Most do it for the purpose of just doing it. Most don't flaunt it in the general public's face. Most don't purport moralities. Most don't widely publicize who they are (they may by handle, but wouldn't actually identify themselves), the list goes on and on.

f0f has gone against the grain in all of this. That is why all the questions about their motivations, what they have done and what they are doing.

I understand that most people can't really "verify" that those hashes are legit (other than Nintendo, of course), but I disagree with the claim that they are "just as likely as that youtube video." Team Twiizers/fail0verflow is a highly respected hacking group, with plenty of previous proof to back it up (Twilight Hack, signing bug, Homebrew Channel, etc.) That "Four Horsemen" group has no previous work that they can point to, and the "evidence" that they have released so far is highly suspicious. If fail0verflow was some group that nobody had ever heard of before, then I would tend to agree that they didn't prove anything by releasing those hashes. However, I don't see any motive for them to release fake hashes, as it would just tarnish their reputation if they were later exposed as fraudulent. The hashes can be verified by Nintendo, and I bet that is really all that they care about. I'm betting that they couldn't care less if people like me and you believe them or not.

I agree with you about the differences between the Four Horseman (though we can't really comment on their rep as we have no idea who they are :P ) and f0f. Most definitely. I also have said numerous times that I have little to no doubt that f0f have done what they said they have done. I was simply playing devil's advocate and illustrating a point.

I do take exception to your Nintendo statement though. If that's all they cared about, they are very more, let's say--less public, ways of spitting in Nintendo's face.

Keep in mind, this is not about me, it's about the community as a whole. I didn't start this, in fact no one in the community started it. f0f started it. They brought all of this speculation and questions to their own door-step by their own actions.
 

Schizoanalysis

From somewhere inside the rabbit hole...
Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
2,804
Trophies
1
Location
...
Website
Visit site
XP
1,204
Country
Yes, but I then don't have to announce to the world, write blogs, hold conferences, etc, etc,
.



You are posting here, aren't you? You don't have to do that, but you do.
You want an audience, yes? Why is it that you do not mutter at home in your bedroom to yourself?

It is the same with them. This requires the gaze of another.
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,375
Country
United Kingdom
but you need to go deeper than that. Again you are just taking things at face value without asking the most important question--why.

That is what I'm talking about when referencing your blind devotion. As I've said, I have little doubt they did what they said they did. My doubts come to everything that has come after what they said they did. None of it makes any sense whatsoever and nothing adds up. You like to ignore this part and it's the most important part of all, especially if you are going to the lengths you are going to defend them and belittle every one who has doubts.

Why are they so hell bent on proving anything to Nintendo
Why use flimsy excuses to keep these exploit to themselves (they have no obligation to release, but at least have the courage of your convictions and tell the truth and not hide behind some lame lie).
Why not reveal until 1 year later that they have actually not completely hacked the system as they had previously stated? (before you jump all over me, unless I missed something, this is the first time they have stated anything about not being able to crack the bootrom).
Why, if there was never an intended release, announce to the world that they were and have hacked the console?
Why release the hashes with an imbedded image of trollface? (and no, if it's "It was directed at Ninty", I don't buy it for a second).
Why create such a circus and cause such an excitement in the community only to bow out later and say "meh, not worth it" (though I believe my question about the bootrom answers this question).

So far there is no, nadda, 0 credible answers to any of these questions. It just baffles me as to why no one else is asking them--worse than that. Choose to ignore them completely and then get all pissy at anyone who dare asks them....



But it's not that simple. Why do they have such a hard-on to show Ninty what they can do? Doesn't make sense that they've had to keep this circus going for over a year just for the purpose of "poking the bear" Especially when that "bear" is completely ignoring you from the word "go."

I am unable to provide their exact motives as I am not them or in possession of a copy of their minds. Still I can offer ones based on what they have said in the past, what other hackers have done over the years and other such things.

"Why are they so hell bent on proving anything to Nintendo"
What says they are? Before you mention the call for Nintendo engineers at the end of the conference though it might have been serious it is also a fairly often seen sign off to such talks, in more general conferences if your talk it picking apart a game or an example of a strategy being used in a game then it is far from unheard of for the devs in question to have a quick word or beer afterwards.
Still they have repeatedly called for the consoles to have homebrew (though they themselves have stated it is less appealing in 2013 when the likes of android will probably outpower it, TVs and PCs speak to each other better than ever and you have all sorts of other options). By getting Nintendo to establish a dialogue it might happen, if nothing else look at how Rare got Nintendo's attention all those years ago.

"Why use flimsy excuses to keep these exploit to themselves (they have no obligation to release, but at least have the courage of your convictions and tell the truth and not hide behind some lame lie)."
A lack of desire to be the one that causes piracy is not a flimsy excuse. I can not say I would follow the same logic (I really do not care about such things) but it is a common enough one; for their day jobs they are or know software devs and being the one to at some level take a chunk out of their paycheck might not sit right with them.

"Why not reveal until 1 year later that they have actually not completely hacked the system as they had previously stated?"
Hacked as in I can run whatever code I like and hacked as in I can make a 1:1 clone in hardware are not necessarily the same thing. The bootrom may well not have any great impact upon the former give or take the aggro to launch the hack in the first place (my connection dropped when they went in depth there and I have not rewatched it yet, from what I gathered it was more of a nicety than a true essential).

"Why, if there was never an intended release, announce to the world that they were and have hacked the console?"
It is their hobby, it is a nice bit of publicity for them, it makes for a very good talk at a hacker conference (a breakdown of the setup and failure of a modern, security focused, high volume, consumer device is exactly the sort of thing these talks deal in)....

"Why release the hashes with an imbedded image of trollface? (and no, if it's "It was directed at Ninty", I don't buy it for a second)."
Trollface and sticking your tongue out may be roughly the same thing. It could also mean nothing, personally I will occasionally write with something resembling poetic prose just to amuse myself. Also if someone else manages to hack the console then the hashes of the files in question will demonstrate they did what they said.

"Why create such a circus and cause such an excitement in the community only to bow out later and say "meh, not worth it" (though I believe my question about the bootrom answers this question)."
The homebrew and warez community is but a small subset or even different community with a bit of overlap to the embedded device design/hacking community and they are very much a part of the latter. From the perspective of the latter it was a fine presentation and example of some work within it. Similarly they did not create the circus, that was on other people.

Why show Nintendo?
MS have long listened to hackers (even recruited them and otherwise did things with them), Sony were beaten over the head enough that they listened (they have a token offering on the vita for homebrew, otheros may have been something though it may also have been a tax dodge), mobile phone companies listened... lots of companies/groups listen and lots of other good things have happened.
 

rednekcowboy

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
242
Trophies
0
Age
46
XP
315
Country
Canada
Now that is an answer I like and can respect, even if I don't agree with some of the reasoning because all of those reasons were there prior to working on it but at least someone took a deeper look at the reasonings and thought it out!

You're last comment hit the nail right on the head, I believe personally.

You are posting here, aren't you? You don't have to do that, but you do.
You want an audience, yes? Why is it that you do not mutter at home in your bedroom to yourself?

It is the same with them. This requires the gaze of another.

If what I wanted was an audience, I would chose a much bigger stage than gbatemp! LOL

I'm here for a discussion, it just happens to be on the net.

I would totally agree with what you are saying if they went into an irc channel and said "guess what! we hacked the wii u" but they didn't do that.
 

obcd

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
1,594
Trophies
0
XP
432
Country
Belgium
I am glad we all agree that the hashes prove nothing at the moment.
I am willing to verify them for them if they provide me the stuff I need :rolleyes:
I have no doubt they did what they said they did.
That's why I don't mind verifying it for the non believers..
 

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
    Xdqwerty @ Xdqwerty: one of the people that appeared there was a minor when filming the cutscenes where she appears