Hacking Why add anti-piracy measures to Devolution ?

[Lumstar]

I don't think it's so simple. If AP was that much of a goal, he'd require ISO files dumped by and tied to the specific Wii you want to run devolution with.

 

[Ace Overclocked]

i think that: with ap u always have GOOD DUMP! and the developer not have problem about people use not good iso.
But now after lot of loader for wii games (And relative cios), for me AP have NONSENSE.
Is just good for people have lot of retail games.... but if i have retail games i can use the systemmenu very well. Gc controller cost 6$..

can you tell me where i can get one in our country for that price?

 

[naxil]

animemaster.. i have found it on ebay... but i don't know if i can post the link here..

 

[SifJar]

I don't think it's so simple. If AP was that much of a goal, he'd require ISO files dumped by and tied to the specific Wii you want to run devolution with.

The sole (or at the very least, main) purpose is AP. If it was just ensuring a clean dump or whatever, there are other ways to do that. One reason I can think of not to require dumping the ISO on the specific Wii is that he does intend to support consoles without GC compatibility and with broken drives in the future. These consoles would not be able to rip the games (they won't be able to verify either, but presumably he has an idea or two for how to get that working).

 

[Ericss]

If someone bought a gc-less Wii, they couldn't play gc games anyway, even if the AP was gone.

Will you please stop using the "people with newer Wiis/broken drives/scratched disks wouldn't be able to load GC games from USB if Devolution didn't exist anyway, therefore they can't complain about the AP" fallacy? We're discussing whether the AP is a good idea and the problems it might cause, and making potential legit users unable to use the app is a bad thing in my book. I don't care if those users aren't any worse than they were before Devolution existed; the point is they're worse than they would be if the AP didn't exist.
When someone reports that a game is unplayable or presents issues when run using DIOS MIOS or Devolution, do you retort "You wouldn't be able to load the game from USB if DM/Devolution didn't exist anyway, so shut up"?

 

[Ace Overclocked]

animemaster.. i have found it on ebay... but i don't know if i can post the link here..

You can send me a PM, ebay is not warez so it's allowed here.
And thanks.

 

[Rydian]

If someone bought a gc-less Wii, they couldn't play gc games anyway, even if the AP was gone.

Will you please stop using the "people with newer Wiis/broken drives/scratched disks wouldn't be able to load GC games from USB if Devolution didn't exist anyway, therefore they can't complain about the AP" fallacy? We're discussing whether the AP is a good idea and the problems it might cause, and making potential legit users unable to use the app is a bad thing in my book. I don't care if those users aren't any worse than they were before Devolution existed; the point is they're worse than they would be if the AP didn't exist.
When someone reports that a game is unplayable or presents issues when run using DIOS MIOS or Devolution, do you retort "You wouldn't be able to load the game from USB if DM/Devolution didn't exist anyway, so shut up"?

It's not a fallacy in response to many of the complaints.

Most of the complaints here hinged on the fact that the program was removing the user's ability to do something because it had AP, which is false. The ability never existed in the first place without the program.

 

[Ericss]

If someone bought a gc-less Wii, they couldn't play gc games anyway, even if the AP was gone.

Will you please stop using the "people with newer Wiis/broken drives/scratched disks wouldn't be able to load GC games from USB if Devolution didn't exist anyway, therefore they can't complain about the AP" fallacy? We're discussing whether the AP is a good idea and the problems it might cause, and making potential legit users unable to use the app is a bad thing in my book. I don't care if those users aren't any worse than they were before Devolution existed; the point is they're worse than they would be if the AP didn't exist.
When someone reports that a game is unplayable or presents issues when run using DIOS MIOS or Devolution, do you retort "You wouldn't be able to load the game from USB if DM/Devolution didn't exist anyway, so shut up"?

It's not a fallacy in response to many of the complaints.

Most of the complaints here hinged on the fact that the program was removing the user's ability to do something because it had AP, which is false. The ability never existed in the first place without the program.

Actually, it's a fallacy in response to the post JoostinOnline was replying to. Under the same logic, people shouldn't be able to say anything about incompatible games on the basis that they wouldn't be able to play them via USB if the app didn't exist in the first place. The point is that the AP is crippling the app's usefulness and preventing users from doing something they would be able to do if the "feature" didn't exist.

 

[SifJar]

Yes, it's a fallacy. Under the same logic, people shouldn't say anything about incompatible games on the basis that they wouldn't be able to play them via USB if the app didn't exist in the first place. The point is that the AP is crippling the app's usefulness and is preventing users from doing something they would be able to do if the feature didn't exist.

But the way people complain about it, they make it seem as if the AP is actually making the situation worse than before. Which is not true. Would (a few) more people be able to use the app if it didn't have AP? Maybe. Is that a reason to remove it? No. Why should the dev care? It's not as if he needs his app to be the most popular app in the world or else he'll feel completely inadequate.

And incompatible games is a different matter entirely. That is a bug report. Reporting bugs is absolutely fine. AP isn't a bug. It's a feature. If people were to start saying stuff like "USB Loader GX makes my Wii useless because I can't play game X with it", rather than "Game X isn't currently working with USB Loader GX", you would probably see a similar reaction to the one shown in this thread.

 

[Jacobeian]

The point is that the AP is crippling the app's usefulness and preventing users from doing something they would be able to do if the "feature" didn't exist.

Yes, it prevents them from loading a random iso they downloaded from the internet without owning the retail gamedisc. That's the point of an Anti-Piracy "feature", indeed.
Now, off course it's going to prevent people without ability to read gamecube disc to be screwed, but it's all about compromises, right ?

Tuedj probably owns a first-generation Wii and is happy with it, why should he care about new Wii's owner ? Did he signed a contract with them ? No. Does he receive a monthly paycheck from them ? Neither. Did he ever promised anything like that or said people should believe in miracles ? Never.

 

[JoostinOnline]

If someone bought a gc-less Wii, they couldn't play gc games anyway, even if the AP was gone.

Will you please stop using the "people with newer Wiis/broken drives/scratched disks wouldn't be able to load GC games from USB if Devolution didn't exist anyway, therefore they can't complain about the AP" fallacy? We're discussing whether the AP is a good idea and the problems it might cause, and making potential legit users unable to use the app is a bad thing in my book. I don't care if those users aren't any worse than they were before Devolution existed; the point is they're worse than they would be if the AP didn't exist.
When someone reports that a game is unplayable or presents issues when run using DIOS MIOS or Devolution, do you retort "You wouldn't be able to load the game from USB if DM/Devolution didn't exist anyway, so shut up"?

It's not a fallacy in response to many of the complaints.

Most of the complaints here hinged on the fact that the program was removing the user's ability to do something because it had AP, which is false. The ability never existed in the first place without the program.

Yes, it's a fallacy in response to the post JoostinOnline was replying to. Under the same logic, people can't say anything about incompatible games on the basis that they wouldn't be able to play them via USB if the app didn't exist in the first place. The point is that the AP is crippling the app's usefulness and preventing users from doing something they would be able to do if the "feature" didn't exist.

No it's not. Even if Devolution didn't have any AP, there would still be no way (currently at least) to play GC games, as there are no controller ports. The same applies to DM/DML. Care to explain what fallacy I'm using by pointing out the physical limitations of the new Wii's?

 

[Ericss]

Yes, it's a fallacy. Under the same logic, people shouldn't say anything about incompatible games on the basis that they wouldn't be able to play them via USB if the app didn't exist in the first place. The point is that the AP is crippling the app's usefulness and is preventing users from doing something they would be able to do if the feature didn't exist.

But the way people complain about it, they make it seem as if the AP is actually making the situation worse than before. Which is not true. Would (a few) more people be able to use the app if it didn't have AP? Maybe. Is that a reason to remove it? No. Why should the dev care? It's not as if he needs his app to be the most popular app in the world or else he'll feel completely inadequate.

And incompatible games is a different matter entirely. That is a bug report. Reporting bugs is absolutely fine. If people were to start saying stuff like "USB Loader GX makes my Wii useless because I can't play game X with it", rather than "Game X isn't currently working with USB Loader GX", you would see a similar reaction to the one shown in this thread. AP isn't a bug. It's a feature.

Aroenai didn't say that Devolution's AP made his Wii useless, all what he said was the AP would render the app moot for people with newer Wiis.

The point is that the AP is crippling the app's usefulness and preventing users from doing something they would be able to do if the "feature" didn't exist.

Yes, it prevents them from loading a random iso they downloaded from the internet without owning the retail gamedisc. That's the point of an Anti-Piracy "feature", indeed.

And it also prevents some legit users from using the app. That's a point of APs, too?

Edit:

If someone bought a gc-less Wii, they couldn't play gc games anyway, even if the AP was gone.

Will you please stop using the "people with newer Wiis/broken drives/scratched disks wouldn't be able to load GC games from USB if Devolution didn't exist anyway, therefore they can't complain about the AP" fallacy? We're discussing whether the AP is a good idea and the problems it might cause, and making potential legit users unable to use the app is a bad thing in my book. I don't care if those users aren't any worse than they were before Devolution existed; the point is they're worse than they would be if the AP didn't exist.
When someone reports that a game is unplayable or presents issues when run using DIOS MIOS or Devolution, do you retort "You wouldn't be able to load the game from USB if DM/Devolution didn't exist anyway, so shut up"?

It's not a fallacy in response to many of the complaints.

Most of the complaints here hinged on the fact that the program was removing the user's ability to do something because it had AP, which is false. The ability never existed in the first place without the program.

Yes, it's a fallacy in response to the post JoostinOnline was replying to. Under the same logic, people can't say anything about incompatible games on the basis that they wouldn't be able to play them via USB if the app didn't exist in the first place. The point is that the AP is crippling the app's usefulness and preventing users from doing something they would be able to do if the "feature" didn't exist.

No it's not. Even if Devolution didn't have any AP, there would still be no way (currently at least) to play GC games, as there are no controller ports. The same applies to DM/DML. Care to explain what fallacy I'm using by pointing out the physical limitations of the new Wii's?

It's known that Devolution will support Wiimotes and their extensions, and tueidj stated that future versions should enable people with newer Wiis to play GC. So unless the app stops using disc checks, that won't become true for most people with non-BC Wiis.

However, now I see your point. People wouldn't be able to use current Devo in newer Wiis even if the AP didn't exist. I apologize, I misunderstood your post.

 

[JoostinOnline]

And it also prevents some legit users from using the app. That's a point of APs, too?

It helps tueidj sleep at night knowing that his work isn't being used for piracy, or at least rarely is.

 

[tmv_josue]

And it also prevents some legit users from using the app. That's a point of APs, too?

The stupidest thing I can read.
How it prevents some legit users from using the app?
Their discs are "scratched"... that's a problem between the owner and who/company sold the game (by the software) to him not devo/tueidj, or there a clause that specifies that you can play your game regardless of their physical condition?

 

[Jacobeian]

And it also prevents some legit users from using the app. That's a point of APs, too?

It's impossible to please anyone ?
What we are trying to explain to you is that an application has no "goal" beside the ones its creator had when he decided to code then publically release said application.
The point of AP is obviously to make pirate's life more difficult and it succeeds in that.
If this makes legit user' life more difficult because they cannot fulfill AP requirements, well that's unfair but that's life. Again, WHY tuedj should care about that and why do you absolutely want to think that applications are released to meet everybody's expectations ?
I really think that people got so used to get all these free stuff or not paying for anything on the internet that they completely forgot why these apps have been done in the first place. If you really think this was done to please us as users when most of us have nothing to offer in return, I'm afraid you are giving yourself too much importance

 

[g4jek8j54]

LOL this thread is beyond stupidity. I only read for entertainment. The only posts related to the title are the first 2 pages, the rest is nonsense deriving from nonsense. Topics discussed here were fallacies, Hdd corruption, Verification Failure and now Laws.

If someone bought a gc-less Wii, they couldn't play gc games anyway, even if the AP was gone.

Will you please stop using the "people with newer Wiis/broken drives/scratched disks wouldn't be able to load GC games from USB if Devolution didn't exist anyway, therefore they can't complain about the AP" fallacy? We're discussing whether the AP is a good idea and the problems it might cause, and making potential legit users unable to use the app is a bad thing in my book. I don't care if those users aren't any worse than they were before Devolution existed; the point is they're worse than they would be if the AP didn't exist.
When someone reports that a game is unplayable or presents issues when run using DIOS MIOS or Devolution, do you retort "You wouldn't be able to load the game from USB if DM/Devolution didn't exist anyway, so shut up"?

We have come full circle...

 

[Ericss]

And it also prevents some legit users from using the app. That's a point of APs, too?

The stupidest thing I can read.
How it prevents some legit users from using the app?
That their discs are "scratched"... that's a problem between the owner and who/company sold the game (by the software) not devo/tueidj, or there a clause that specifies that you can play your game regardless of their physical condition?

The stupidest thing I can read.
First you ask how the AP prevents people from using Devo despite people already stating why thousands of times in the thread. Then you answer your own question... and then try to justify the AP anyway on the basis that scratched discs are "a problem between the owner and who/company sold the game"... Give me a break. No one's saying that scratched discs tueidj's responsability, but a USB loader doesn't need discs AT ALL to function. That's as if I wrote a PC app that only works if the user has a PC microphone connected despite the program not using it at all. It wouldn't be my fault if some people don't have microphones either, but there's no reason to disallow people without them from using the app when it doesn't require it to function.
And to answer your question, when people buy a game, they're paying the license to play it. So yes, people "buy" the right to play a game regardless of its disc's condition (unless its a pay-to-play game).

And it also prevents some legit users from using the app. That's a point of APs, too?

It's impossible to please anyone ?
What we are trying to explain to you is that an application has no "goal" beside the ones its creator had when he decided to code then publically release said application.
The point of AP is obviously to make pirate's life more difficult and it succeeds in that.
If this makes legit user' life more difficult because they cannot fulfill AP requirements, well that's unfair but that's life. Again, WHY tuedj should care about that and why do you absolutely want to think that applications are released to meet everybody's expectations ?
I really think that people got so used to get all these free stuff or not paying for anything on the internet that they completely forgot why these apps have been done in the first place. If you really think this was done to please us as users when most of us have nothing to offer in return, I'm afraid you are giving yourself too much importance

It doesn't matter if tueidj has no reason to care what we think, this is a thread to discuss about the app's AP. What do you expect people to do? Praise it and ignore any problems caused by it?

 

[tmv_josue]

....And to answer your question, when people buy a game, they're paying the license to play it. So yes, people "buy" the right to play a game regardless of its disc's condition (unless its a pay-to-play game).

Yes, i know that and that's my point, that term applies between you and the company, NO with Devo.

Go to complain to the company.
So stop using that excuse here.

 

[duffmmann]

Ultimately, I have to ask, what is the point of anti piracy measures for gamecube games for a USB gamecube loader.

Legitimate concerns aside (And I do see, understand, and even agree with a lot of these) primarily the wii laser is dead or nearly dead (can't tell you how many of my friend's laser's have gone to hell).

But that aside, whats the point? I mean this isn't going to stop people from piracy on the Wii with gamecube games. Most will probably just migrate to Dios Mios, even though this app has way more potential. Others may just stick with the ability to play burnt copies and multidiscs of gamecube games. But on top of all of that, I bet a lot of people that did make legit backups of their gamecube games when burnt disc playing first became possible, ultimately traded in or gave away the retail originals as they felt they didn't need them anymore. FInally, I love the ability to play games that never even came to my region (such as Doshin the Giant), there is no way that I'm ever going to get my hands on a copy of that game, unless I decide to travel to a used game store in Europe or search around online for a copy of it, even though its a game I shouldn't be able to play on my console anyway, it seems so utterly pointless in that case.

 

[tmv_josue]

Ultimately, I have to ask, what is the point of anti piracy measures for gamecube games for a USB gamecube loader.
But that aside, whats the point? I mean this isn't going to stop people from piracy on the Wii with gamecube games.

The point is not to stop the whole piracy, just do not allow it through Devo.

FInally, I love the ability to play games that never even came to my region (such as Doshin the Giant), there is no way that I'm ever going to get my hands on a copy of that game, unless I decide to travel to a used game store in Europe or search around online for a copy of it, even though its a game I shouldn't be able to play on my console anyway, it seems so utterly pointless in that case.

Buy it in a online store and I'm sure you can play it through USBLoaders