The Gaza Invasion Escalates

BlueStar

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finkmac

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FAST6191

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I have pretty much stayed out of the thread crystal107 but what you are presently demonstrating is pretty classic victim mentality (to summarise it badly "everybody is out to get you"/"you are all alone in the world which is hostile to you" to the point of ignoring reason that might say otherwise) and worse you are conflating it with that of the mentality of your entire nation which is probably about as infuriating for people to deal with as you claim to be finding some of the others in this thread.

In general the use of conventional military force is looked upon very negatively where there were the potential for other options (be it negotiations or specialist warfare and similar such things- all of which Israel has demonstrated an astounding capability in over the past few decades- if the whole Mahmoud al Mabhouh thing is considered a screw up I can only wish half my screw ups worked that well) and many still see options for said alternatives there. By the same logic random/untargeted attacks on civilian populations are also to be looked upon highly negatively, where it gets tricky (and I certainly do not hold to this view at present) is that if various groups in Palestine wish to self identify as a state of some form (and there is a historical, theological, political and geographical precedent for it) the old adage "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" comes into play and when coupled with said groups being faced with an overwhelmingly superior military force many thousands of years of combat says "use specialist warfare" (again though random civilian targets is not really specialist warfare as much as it is dick move).
I doubt anybody would disagree that the bulk of humanity (various philosophies and religions would promote a lack of escalation or indeed pacifism but those that practice such things are fairly few in number) would find self defence agreeable, however the line between self defence and a provoked measure (and some, indeed several in this very thread, contend some of the sanctions imposed and actions taken could count as a proper provocation) is perhaps not entirely clear in this situation.

In short what you are deeming a clear cut binary division is anything but to the impartial observer and as others you have championed have said "we are not there (and moreover we have nothing beyond a like of humanity invested in such situations)" which basic logic would say allows us to very much be impartial observers where you yourself would have to try very hard to be.
 
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crystal107

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I have pretty much stayed out of the thread crystal107 but what you are presently demonstrating is pretty classic victim mentality (to summarise it badly "everybody is out to get you"/"you are all alone in the world which is hostile to you" to the point of ignoring reason that might say otherwise) and worse you are conflating it with that of the mentality of your entire nation which is probably about as infuriating for people to deal with as you claim to be finding some of the others in this thread.

In general the use of conventional military force is looked upon very negatively where there were the potential for other options (be it negotiations or specialist warfare and similar such things- all of which Israel has demonstrated an astounding capability in over the past few decades- if the whole Mahmoud al Mabhouh thing is considered a screw up I can only wish half my screw ups worked that well) and many still see options for said alternatives there. By the same logic random/untargeted attacks on civilian populations are also to be looked upon highly negatively, where it gets tricky (and I certainly do not hold to this view at present) is that if various groups in Palestine wish to self identify as a state of some form (and there is a historical, theological, political and geographical precedent for it) the old adage "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" comes into play and when coupled with said groups being faced with an overwhelmingly superior military force many thousands of years of combat says "use specialist warfare" (again though random civilian targets is not really specialist warfare as much as it is dick move).
I doubt anybody would disagree that the bulk of humanity (various philosophies and religions would promote a lack of escalation or indeed pacifism but those that practice such things are fairly few in number) would find self defence agreeable, however the line between self defence and a provoked measure (and some, indeed several in this very thread, contend some of the sanctions imposed and actions taken could count as a proper provocation) is perhaps not entirely clear in this situation.

In short what you are deeming a clear cut binary division is anything but to the impartial observer and as others you have championed have said "we are not there (and moreover we have nothing beyond a like of humanity invested in such situations)" which basic logic would say allows us to very much be impartial observers where you yourself would have to try very hard to be.


Well, it seems like most people here are clueless about what's really happening and all you got is info from media, and ignoring any info that comes from Israel, cause what , it tries to defend itself?

In 2001, my father, who is a bus driver, had a terrorist on his bus, blowing it up, and he was hospitalized for half a year, it's a miracle he didn't die.
Now, you can blame Israel for attacking civilians, but as you can see, Hamas doesn't really care about civilians either, when they got a military force to fight, same time putting rocket launcher at school and hospitals so we have to go underground to catch them.

This may sound cruel, but I wish your fathers died from a terrorist attack to understand there's no one here to negotiate with.


But here you are, sitting at the comfort of your home, under no war, judging Israel for protecting itself from terrorists, while it could be you sitting here and be on the bus that blew up today by a terrorist :) yes, a bus. not our military force... a BUS, with innocent civilians that had nothing to do with this war. Not because there was a rocket launcher in the bus... not because there was someone specific they wanted in the bus... just to scare. hence, the name, terrorists.

You are welcome to explain why those poor souls you are defending, are killing civilians, be it women, children, men, when they got a military force to fight? think they don't got the weapons for it? well they definitely got bombs! but it's easier to kill unarmed people, they are all jews after all, so it doesn't matter if you kill a military man or a child. the sad truth is, there is hatred and there was always hatred towards jews, there is clear evidence for that, you can go ahead and say we got victim mentality, but we got facts to back it up.
 

FAST6191

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This may sound cruel, but I wish your fathers died from a terrorist attack to understand there's no one here to negotiate with.


But here you are, sitting at the comfort of your home, under no war, judging Israel for protecting itself from terrorists, while it could be you sitting here and be on the bus that blew up today by a terrorist :) yes, a bus. not our military force... a BUS.

Yeah..... I was around for the IRA and such at their height with close friends and family both in Northern Ireland and London (and other such cities often targeted or used as staging grounds) with all the attendant issues there- worse is I see several of the same would be mistakes being made, "there's no one here to negotiate with" being chief among those. I agree that they were probably a bit different in many regards but well- ostensibly living within the country, with support of several members of local populace, support somewhat outside the local populace, reasonable ability to effect things outside their nominal base of operations all does not sound too terribly different to the situation Israel is presently experiencing.
Going by the age of several others in this thread many will have also faced similar groups near to them; Foxi4 seems to be your main sparring partner right now and the combined efforts of organised crime and various Eastern Europe groups (both general and former soviet stuff) and some of the more interesting things that happened elsewhere in Europe (Germany and Greece had some interesting groups that have been tied to things there) and things being pulled apart to this day with a lot of things playing out in Poland. Indeed with many of us having gone through that it is why eyes get rolled when the US brings up its "war on terrorism" but I am going off topic now.
That is all somewhat besides the point and something I sense Foxi4 was dodging being dragged into a "check out my scars" contest so I should probably apologise to him for that- the high level concept discussion is the more important stuff not necessarily "I am afraid for my family so" as that is quite often a bad justification for things as a long term goal or when drastic measures are being considered.
 

crystal107

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I was trying to point out that these people are not poor people who are there to just merely protect themselves while we slaughter them for our funz, they are not defenseless, sure they don't have a developed country, but they surely got a lot of ammo, and it's harder to fight a war against people who use psychological means, by putting rocket launchers in hospitals and schools so if something happens to the launcher ,they can all go and scream " Look at us! we're so poor! Israel are so mean! " it's a great tactic btw, it seems to work on many many people, including you guys, and it just shows how much they actually care for their own children and people if they put them under this kind of danger just for the sake of publicity.

You think Israel enjoys those wars? we got a great country and enough space, we have nothing to earn from this other than peace for our civilians. We had no other choice, to remind you, this war started with Hamas bombing cities here for 2 weeks straight, and only from there this whole operation started, If you declare war, be ready for consequences.
 

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If you've got enough space, why are Israeli settlers building on privately owned Palestinian land?

It's adorable hearing Israelis telling British people they don't know what it's like to live under fear of terrorist attack by the way. And wishing death on our parents is a really classy touch.

Maybe if Israel didn't block concrete from entering Gaza, then the Palestinian government could build bomb shelters for civilians, a luxury afforded to the people in Sderot? I suppose at least there's a flimsy excuse that concrete could also be used to protect 'terrorists' (which now includes anyone associated with government infrastructure at all) Unlike the other things Israel have banned such as coriander, which proves undeniably that the point of the sanctions is to punish, not to protect.
 

bialy_gibson

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I guess it's off topic, but the funny fact is that in a struggle to gain independence Jews used terrorist methods to invoke fear in Palestinian-Arab citizens and British authorities.
 

crystal107

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I guess it's off topic, but the funny fact is that in a struggle to gain independence Jews used terrorist methods to invoke fear in Palestinian-Arab citizens and British authorities.


That's actually quite true, I don't deny that. but it was long time ago, when Jews had no more options for a safe place after world war 2. as for Arabs.. we're pretty much surrounded by many Arabic countries. gee, I wonder why they won't take Palestinians... hmmm maybe cause no one wants the Hamas in their country? lol "Please take us, we will kill people of our own kind to get our goals, we're all good, really! we'll just make sure your children die like ours, by putting rocket launchers in their schools and sending them to their death.. it's not that bad, let us in!"
 

bialy_gibson

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My point was that Jews used terrorism as a tool to gain independence. Nowadays the situation is reversed, which makes it kinda funny.
 

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Well if you declare war and start bombing, it's called attacking, not defending. if you kill unarmed Israel civilians, it's called murder, not defending. where's the defending in here?


So it comes down to 'who started it'? And you think there's only one view on that? If you're a Palestinian land owner and Israeli extremists attempt to take your land by force, are you allowed to defend your land? Or is that fact some people you happen to share a religion and skin colour with might have fired a rocket mean you're in the wrong there as well? If Israeli bulldozers or tanks are coming to demolish your house because they wrongly think it's a terrorist base, are you allowed to do ANYTHING or do you just have to accept it? If Palestinians tried any of these things the other way round, they'd be shot on sight.

Was the Israeli soldier killed a legitimate target by the way?
 
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MADKATZ99

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Admittedly I don't know much about the war. All I know is that Islam doesn't want Jews to have land; much less want them alive at all. Jews weren't allowed in so many countries, and after the holocaust, people realised they need their own place to live. Maybe it wasn't longer theirs to take, or maybe they were just taking it back? Land has been won and lost through war all the time, I don't understand the hate people have for Jews, compared to the land the Arabs have it's the size of a matchstick in a football field. Again, I don't know much about the never ending conflict, I just like Jews more than I like Arabs.
 
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Deleted_171835

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Admittedly I don't know much about the war. All I know is that Islam doesn't want Jews to have land; much less want them alive at all. Jews weren't allowed in so many countries, and after the holocaust, people realised they need their own place to live. Maybe it wasn't longer theirs to take, or maybe they were just taking it back? Land has been won and lost through war all the time, I don't understand the hate people have for Jews, compared to the land the Arabs have it's the size of a matchstick in a football field. Again, I don't know much about the never ending conflict, I just like Jews more than I like Arabs.
What the actual fuck?

Candidate for dumbest post of the year award?
 
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