Homebrew Steam Community DS

[Kiiro_Yakumo]

In Windows a lot of security is done via rootkits (such as hackshield) and forced virtual device drivers (such as starforce and such). Those types of things don't work in Linux. Either the concept they use does not exist in Linux's security model and is thus not possible, or even if it is possible people can mess with it easily. That concept scares off big companies.

Kyahaha true
How many times Kaspersky alarmed about GameGuard as rootkit...
How many times Kaspersky alarmed 3 times before it finally allowed me to run FLYFF
&c.
Well they ARE possible, compile rootkit into Kernel...no more security but hey, possible

But then again, Mac OS X is - at this point - SAME as Linux, so what the heck, Mac OS X can do it and Linux can't?! WTF?!

The theory is good but the Mac OS X kills it

 

[Janthran]

By the way in what would it be useful on nds?
Just use another IM or simply use irc
Most teams never uses the steam chat, and why would you need it if you are not playing?

I have an internet timer on my computer that my dad set up. It doesn't apply to my (3)DS. And most of what I do on the computer is chat with friends on Steam.

 

[Rydian]

But then again, Mac OS X is - at this point - SAME as Linux, so what the heck, Mac OS X can do it and Linux can't?! WTF?!

The theory is good but the Mac OS X kills it

OSX has a lot in common with linux due to both of them being UNIX or UNIX-like, but it's not the same thing. Yes OSX "became" a UNIX a few versions ago, but that was just them getting certified, since "UNIX" is a trademarked name/term and you can't legally use that without permission from the authority. That's why Linux is called "UNIX-like".

inb4 "Why doesn't Linux ju-" - Not free (I think it's like $6,000 a version or year), and most people don't really give a damn since people already know it's UNIX-like.

Anyways, when you get down into the nitty-gritty of the OS (which is where rootkits like GG/HS and virtual device drivers like starforce operate), they differ in some key aspects.

• In Linux the source for any part of it is easy to get, and debugging tools for the OS's parts are abundant. Wanna' see how this program is trying to read a certain filesystem? Sure, look through the source and here's some tools to run. Wanna' see how this program scans the memory regions of another? No problem.
  
  In addition a (comparatively) large percentage of users are able and willing to dig down into what's given to them (as in programs) and find how it works and what code it has and what it does. You might even say some Linux groups are paranoid about this, as there's groups out there that examine any code and programs they can get to find licensing violations and security/privacy concerns. Many Linux users will dig into what they can get ahold of and disassemble it.
  
• In OSX the source and documentation for core parts is mostly inaccessible... normal users do not have access to this sort of thing. What's that, a program is hooking into I/O reads and you want access to the OSX I/O source to see what functions it's touching? Too bad. What's that, a program is using a virtual device driver to redirect optical drive reads and you want to see how to stop it? Too bad.
  
  In addition comparatively few users of OSX are technically-minded (take note this is in comparison to Linux, not Windows), and even those that are often choose OSX over Linux for the ease of use, and so are not the kind that immediately jump to disassembling programs they come across.

These two points make OSX a "safer" platform, at least as far as MMO companies are concerned. Yeah an MMO is only a game, but MMO companies make their living off of repeat customers, so they want as little as possible messing with the game and scaring off customers.

"Well then why are they often on Windows?" - A large enough consumer base can make other worries seem minimal in comparison.






tl;dr Linux and DRM don't mix as far as companies are concerned. Wish this wasn't so, but people use WINE and such to deal how they can.

 

[Kiiro_Yakumo]

I'm not specialists but I think that wole "X" series in Mac OS is Unix or Unix-like, the previous Mac OS (9 and below) was way another story (beautiful story...)

In Linux the source for any part of it is easy to get

Nope, if author doesn't want to reveal source code he/she doesn't have to, once again Linux license doesn't force ANYONE to make Open-Source programs, it just forces to make Linux be free and open-source, just that

Sure, look through the source and here's some tools to run.

Again, no willing to give source, no deal

In OSX the source and documentation for core parts is mostly inaccessible...

Once again, unless author wants to reveal the code

Wish this wasn't so, but people use WINE and such to deal how they can.

Yes but it doesn't work for GG/HS/othersuch[censored] things, as mentioned they are rootkits and Wine doesn't want to make them run, neither Linux itself wants, safe or not it's rootkit...the other thing is that GG is SO EASY to crack (well kick-out with game still run) but not everybody knows how to do it
End User must think not how to run the game but how to trick the game, that makes wrong politics of some sort, because instead user to be happy that he can play his favourite game on Linux, he must get the happiness by forcing his way to it...I don't mind such challenges but not everybody wants that kind of work to do
I still recall the guy that showed on Youtube how he has run Pangya (aka Albatross18 in the past) on Linux but didn't want to reveal the method because he believed to whole end of the world that if he will do it the company won't help Linux users...wha~?!

Anyway in my opinion we are still at the "hate" of companies to Linux...
IMO it's not problem to make program to be so-closed-source like on Mac OS X and to make it run on Linux
One more thing, if I would want to be "paranoic" about getting into source code by backward assembly, I can do it regardless of operating system I have (Virtual Machine FTW)
For example I install OSX on Virtual Machine, get the game, install it, play a bit, get it out to Linux host and use tools to disassembly it and what's more, if I will get source code there is HIGH chance I will be able to recompile it for my Linux platform!!! (just have to correct names of libraries names in the files and as worst case, get the ones that probably should not be in the network but they are anyway teehee xD)

 

[Rydian]

I'm not specialists but I think that wole "X" series in Mac OS is Unix or Unix-like, the previous Mac OS (9 and below) was way another story (beautiful story...)

No, I'm talking OSX. It got the UNIX label in 10.5. Previously it was like Linux, UNIX-like, but not a certified UNIX.

Even though they're both UNIX-like or UNIX, it doesn't mean they're the same thing though. Windows XP and Windows 7 are both Windows NT operating systems, but that doesn't mean compability and such is exactly the same. Hell, beteeen NT 5 (XP family) and NT 6 (Vista/7 family) the graphics system changed so older graphics drivers don't work and a bunch of crap too.

So even if things do share some commonness in the base, it doesn't mean that they're the same thing. It does not mean that the same sort of drivers and technologies will work with them.

In Linux the source for any part of it is easy to get

Nope, if author doesn't want to reveal source code he/she doesn't have to, once again Linux license doesn't force ANYONE to make Open-Source programs, it just forces to make Linux be free and open-source, just that

Sure, look through the source and here's some tools to run.

Again, no willing to give source, no deal

In OSX the source and documentation for core parts is mostly inaccessible...

Once again, unless author wants to reveal the code

No dude, in that section I'm talking about the OS.
The source, tools, and documentation for Linux are easily-available.
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/docs/

OSX on the whole is not open-source. Yes it does use some open-source components, but it's not nearly to the point that Linux is.

Yes but it doesn't work for GG/HS/othersuch[censored] things, as mentioned they are rootkits and Wine doesn't want to make them run, neither Linux itself wants, safe or not it's rootkit...

It's more of a technical limitation in many cases. WINE is an API translation layer, so there's things it can't do, mainly programs that would directly interact with the windows kernel (or install and use device drivers) instead of just using API calls like normal programs.

In addition like I said, sometimes the security ideas that Windows has and copy protections try to exploit just won't work on Linux.
http://wiki.winehq.org/CopyProtection

[...] Wine developers have to contend with undocumented interfaces, code obfuscation, and maintaining compatibility with *nix security models.

I still recall the guy that showed on Youtube how he has run Pangya (aka Albatross18 in the past) on Linux but didn't want to reveal the method because he believed to whole end of the world that if he will do it the company won't help Linux users...wha~?!

We see time and time again that companies will grasp at straws for reasons to not spend time/effort/money on something. That could easily be taken as an example of "Well see if we put it on Linux people will just hack it, so we won't do it."

One more thing, if I would want to be "paranoic" about getting into source code by backward assembly, I can do it regardless of operating system I have (Virtual Machine FTW)
For example I install OSX on Virtual Machine, get the game, install it, play a bit, get it out to Linux host and use tools to disassembly it and what's more, if I will get source code there is HIGH chance I will be able to recompile it for my Linux platform!!! (just have to correct names of libraries names in the files and as worst case, get the ones that probably should not be in the network but they are anyway teehee xD)

I didn't say it wasn't possible, but it's harder (getting OSX in a virtual machine at all takes more time and effort than linux) and less people care.

 

[Janthran]

@Rydian So.. Is this actually likely? >_>

 

[Rydian]

No. Like one of the first responses said, the API is not public.

 

[Janthran]

YOU were the one to start this whole thing in the first place. >_

 

[Rydian]

Even if Steam went to Linux as well, that wouldn't make the API public.

 

[DanTheManMS]

Even if Steam went to Linux as well, that wouldn't make the API public.

I think he's talking about your original "Steam chat on the DS would be possible" post in the EoF, as linked earlier in the thread. Nothing to do with Linux or anything. It gave him false hope, leading him to create this topic.

Honestly I'm not entirely why you said "yes" in the first place, given how much you've proven you already know about DRM and Steam and such.

 

[SifJar]

Would it be possible to make?

Yes.

He never said it would be easy, just possible.

 

[Rydian]

If Valve were to make it, they could do it easily 'cause they have the API and permission to use the network since they own it.

 

[Janthran]

If Valve were to make it, they could do it easily 'cause they have the API and permission to use the network since they own it.

Wouldn't really be homebrew, would it now?

 

[Rydian]

No, but there's about as much chance of that happening as somebody going through all the effort to make a homebrew one.

 

[Janthran]

So, there's no way to like use CLIRC to connect to the Steam servers?

 

[SifJar]

So, there's no way to like use CLIRC to connect to the Steam servers?

No.

 

[Janthran]

Dang. Well then, I guess..
[/thread]

 

[Kiiro_Yakumo]

Ah true Rydian, because of Linux being more open it would probably go easier for any cracking
However about setting up OSX I must not agree, if someone has INTEL CPU he/she can install OSX just like it is, for AMD users there are hacked versions of OSX which are just the same with AMD locker killed (and sometimes some extra stuff like QuickTime or something)

Even if Steam went to Linux as well, that wouldn't make the API public.

I wouldn't be angry, they can keep API secret, I don't mind

Hell, beteeen NT 5 (XP family) and NT 6 (Vista/7 family) the graphics system changed so older graphics drivers don't work and a bunch of crap too.

XP can run pretty nice on Riva TNT 2 model 64 card! \o/
(just to add something from me xD)

Oh well, Valve has odd politics sometimes but at least they are making most of stuff pretty good, Steam per se works on Linux and many of the games as well, there is probably no need for HackShield Crap because Steam is good "shield" itself...and it works on Wine mwahahaha
Steam > G.F.W.L. (in my opinion)