Hardware RUMOR: 3DS update fixed framerate problems/load times in some software

  • Thread starter Deleted_171835
  • Start date
  • Views 13,257
  • Replies 65
  • Likes 5

2ndApex

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
677
Trophies
0
XP
419
Country
United States
Dang it, it's tempting to update but there's still a ghost of a chance that the 3DS mod might be released someday.

Meh, I'll wait another week or so.
 

TripleSMoon

GBAtemp's Umbran Witch in [T]raining
Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
Messages
6,443
Trophies
2
Age
34
Location
Central NC
Website
twitter.com
XP
3,296
Country
United States
Check the Iwata Asks for OOT 3D--basically, yes, it was intentional.
I'm not surprised. So it was unintentional in the N64 version, but they intentionally kept that in the 3DS version?
Dang it, it's tempting to update but there's still a ghost of a chance that the 3DS mod might be released someday.

Meh, I'll wait another week or so.
Why does everyone think that the mod will exploit a much older version that most people won't have? I highly doubt hackers will even waste their time. It's more likely they'll look for an exploit common in all versions that hasn't been discovered yet (if it exists).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sicklyboy

Sicklyboy

#JOYCONBOYZFOREVER
Global Moderator
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
6,296
Trophies
2
Location
[̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°̲̅)̲̅$̲̅]
XP
7,949
Country
United States
I'm not surprised. So it was unintentional in the N64 version, but they intentionally kept that in the 3DS version?

Why does everyone think that the mod will exploit a much older version that most people won't have? I highly doubt hackers will even waste their time. It's more likely they'll look for an exploit common in all versions that hasn't been discovered yet (if it exists).

Why does everyone think it will come out at all? There's nothing that is anywheres near remotely ready for public release.
 

granville

GBAtemp Goat
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,102
Trophies
1
Age
35
Location
Orlando, Florida
XP
3,057
Country
United States
I'm kind of surprised they left in some framerate dips in Zelda for "authenticity reasons". As much as I really like the 3DS rendition and consider it by far the best version of the game, I can't help but find that to be a dumb thing to intentionally program in. I don't see how anyone can find framerate problems charming or cool, even regarding nostalgia of old ass games from the 32 and 64 bit eras.

I can confirm that the update has improved the 3ds games and system functionality. I have access to a great deal of games and all show improvement games that had delayed button response. Like rayman origins are now more responsive.shinobi runs buttery smooth as does castlevainia and sonic Gen,also there's improved framerates when games are played with 3d on. So yeah the improvements are real some more noticeable than others.its not a placebo effect I have 2 3ds xl's only one is on latest firmware. Nintendo came thru big time on this update heres hoping they keep improving the 3ds and Wii u.

I've got the demos of Mirror of Fate and Rayman Origins. Castlevania still has a choppy and unstable framerate in parts, it's far from buttery smooth at all. It may be improved a little (not sure as i'll have to pull up a video from a pre-update 3DS since I didn't test it extensively before updating), but the game still has framerate drops, particularly during battles with enemies.

Rayman Origins I did test a ton before the update and I can confirm it isn't improved at all in the framerate department. It always ran at a locked 30fps, half that of any other version. However, the demo never had any control issues regarding response times. I actually did some side by side tests with the PC version when people claimed this and Rayman performed actions just as quickly and responsively in both versions. I had the games running in the same levels simultaneously and pressed the buttons at exactly the same time, no issues whatsoever there. The fact that the 3DS version runs at half the framerate of the other versions of the game throws people off and makes it feel less smooth to the eyes, but the controls aren't any less responsive.
 

RodrigoDavy

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
1,453
Trophies
0
XP
879
Country
Brazil
I'm kind of surprised they left in some framerate dips in Zelda for "authenticity reasons". As much as I really like the 3DS rendition and consider it by far the best version of the game, I can't help but find that to be a dumb thing to intentionally program in. I don't see how anyone can find framerate problems charming or cool, even regarding nostalgia of old ass games from the 32 and 64 bit eras.
It could be to generate some kind of effect. Many movies used slow-motion which is a technique that make the fps drop but it's kind of stylish.
 

Ergo

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
614
Trophies
0
XP
263
Country
United States
I'm not surprised. So it was unintentional in the N64 version, but they intentionally kept that in the 3DS version?

Precisely--they felt it lent an air of drama, so they've kept that intact in every port and update since then, even though it was originally 'conceived' due to a hw limitation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TripleSMoon

granville

GBAtemp Goat
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,102
Trophies
1
Age
35
Location
Orlando, Florida
XP
3,057
Country
United States
I haven't actually beaten OOT3D yet. Is the lag they programmed into the game a choppier framerate, or is it slow-motion type of lag?

It could be to generate some kind of effect. Many movies used slow-motion which is a technique that make the fps drop but it's kind of stylish.

Slow motion is completely different from a choppy framerate though. In fact, proper slowmotion in cinema is just a scene shot at a much higher framerate than normal anyways and then slowed down to match whatever framerate the video is running at. As such, the scene shows very slow but still also perfectly smooth motion.

There is a slowmo type of lag that can be seen in games sometimes, it's different from a drop in framerate. You can see this a lot in emulated games when your computer isn't powerful enough to handle them. If you don't enable frameskipping in these emulators and the computer can't keep up with them, they start to play in slow motion and the game will move along like it's moving through molasses. So the game will still appear incredibly smooth in terms of framerate, but will simply play very slow. I get this a lot whenever I try to play intensive Gamecube and Wii games in Dolphin on my older Athlon II PC.

A drop in framerate will just make the game appear very choppy. This is a method for them to keep a game running at "full speed" without moving more slowly but still compensate for a game having performance issues.

I find a lot of older games from the 8 and 16 bit eras slowed down in the slowmo type of way whenever they had performance issues. Two games I can recall offhand from playing somewhat recently were Sonic the Hedgehog whenever you have a large quantity of rings and then lose them (they go flying away and the game will often lag due to the amount of sprites being drawn onscreen), as well as Demon's Crest on Super Nintendo (which can lag a lot ingame when there's a lot going onscreen).
 

Ergo

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
614
Trophies
0
XP
263
Country
United States
It's what was colloquially known as "slowdown" 'back in the day', i.e. lag--as pointed out, a choppy frame rate wouldn't have a dramatic effect at all, but a la running film up to 120fps, it does work.

(Plus, if you read the Iwata Asks, you can tell they were loathe to mess with the game at all since those slowdowns were part of the original experience. Basically, they treated it reverentially in many respects, which I think is reasonable given this isn't a full-blown remake but more of an enhanced port.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: granville

granville

GBAtemp Goat
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,102
Trophies
1
Age
35
Location
Orlando, Florida
XP
3,057
Country
United States
Yup. And really, i don't think a drop in framerate as seen in 3DS games and many other modern games is technically "slowdown" in the traditional sense. Since the game isn't running any slower, but just choppier (if you compare a game like Snake Eater 3D to the HD Collection, the game doesn't run any slower or take any more time to carry out actions onscreen, it just gets very choppy looking to keep the game running at the intended speed). Performance issues yes, and we may still call it slowdown out of habit, but the game itself I can't say is running any slower.

I remember some games were actually a bit easier with the traditional type of slowmo slowdown. If you're playing an action heavy game, the slow motion during intense parts in games could help you to plan better and give you a little more time to think an action through. Whereas a game getting too choppy on the flipside I find can hinder the playability of games due to being more disorienting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rydian

shadowgauge

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2008
Messages
93
Trophies
0
XP
175
Country
United States
Best way to make the comparison is to have a 3ds on older firmware and one on the new update personally watching a video won't help unless its a side by side comparison video made with a good camera in HD, response times have to deal with refresh rates not only frames per second so maybe Nintendo made some optimizations to the GPU/CPU so 3ds refreshes at a better frame rate, but when all is said and done the improvements are there.if you can't see them that sucks but the ppl that can are enjoying their games a little more, I own practically all the 3ds games because I have children the cartridges not the downloads so going by a demo can bring different results 1. Not a representation of the final product and 2.memory card speeds, not saying that u have a bad SD card.
 

Ergo

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
614
Trophies
0
XP
263
Country
United States
Best way to make the comparison is to have a 3ds on older firmware and one on the new update personally watching a video won't help unless its a side by side comparison video made with a good camera in HD, response times have to deal with refresh rates not only frames per second so maybe Nintendo made some optimizations to the GPU/CPU so 3ds refreshes at a better frame rate, but when all is said and done the improvements are there.if you can't see them that sucks but the ppl that can are enjoying their games a little more, I own practically all the 3ds games because I have children the cartridges not the downloads so going by a demo can bring different results 1. Not a representation of the final product and 2.memory card speeds, not saying that u have a bad SD card.

Agreed, I've been doing side-by-sides with a number of games on a pre-fw and post-fw 3DS and there is an improvement, if subtle, in most cases.

(It's probably also reasonable to say that if you aren't terribly sensitive to frame rate--which appears, past a point, to be highly subjective--you won't see anything at all.)

EDIT: I should say "perception of frame rate is highly subjective"--obviously, these games all run at a wholly objective frame rate, even if it's all over the place ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: shadowgauge

granville

GBAtemp Goat
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,102
Trophies
1
Age
35
Location
Orlando, Florida
XP
3,057
Country
United States
Best way to make the comparison is to have a 3ds on older firmware and one on the new update personally watching a video won't help unless its a side by side comparison video made with a good camera in HD, response times have to deal with refresh rates not only frames per second so maybe Nintendo made some optimizations to the GPU/CPU so 3ds refreshes at a better frame rate, but when all is said and done the improvements are there.if you can't see them that sucks but the ppl that can are enjoying their games a little more, I own practically all the 3ds games because I have children the cartridges not the downloads so going by a demo can bring different results 1. Not a representation of the final product and 2.memory card speeds, not saying that u have a bad SD card.

I don't know whether SD card speeds can really have an affect on framerates. Loading possibly, but I dunno about framerates. I've not really heard of anyone having framerate issues with slower SD cards. Regardless i'm using the SD card that came packaged with the 3DS, not my own.

As I said, I tested Rayman Origins myself using my full PC version and the 3DS demo. They're both identical in response time with the button presses. I didn't use a video to compare the two of those. As they were both already identical anyways (and the PC port is actually very good and responsive), i'm not seeing any room for improvement. I am well acquainted with games that have laggy and unresponsive controls (for example the regular DS port of Rayman 2 had some unresponsive controls), but I saw no problem here to begin with as I tested it with another version of the game. And I tried the game numerous times pre-update and don't see any difference post update.

Videos are ok to use to gauge framerates as long as the video recording itself isn't running at a choppy rate. You can usually tell whether it's a problem with the game itself or the recorded video in offscreen videos when you look at the surrounding area the video was recorded in. If the surrounding room is choppy too, it's the camera's fault. But if just the game is choppy and the surrounding area is still smooth, it's the game.

It would be very easy to see how much the framerate improved in Castlevania by comparing it to videos that are played on a pre-update 3DS. The game runs at 30fps maximum anyways. Most videos are capped to 30fps. As long as the video itself doesn't have framerate drops, you'll be able to easily tell where the improvements are. I wouldn't be surprised if this game was improved regardless. It has clearly improved other games with similar issues. As I said I didn't play it much before the update so i'm not accustomed to it. But it does still drop after the update. Improved perhaps, but not entirely fixed. That's true of Kingdom Hearts 3D as well, far better framerate in the game but there still are drops here and there.
 

RodrigoDavy

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
1,453
Trophies
0
XP
879
Country
Brazil
First, some movies doesn't use this technique of filming in higher frame rates to slow them down later. Believe it or not, it's a lot common for movies to just half the frame rate to achieve this effect, since filming at higher frame rates require a lot of space to be stored either in film format or digitally. Take into account that films have to use lot of cameras at the same time and sometimes it's cost prohibitive to use this more advanced technique if you want the scene to have different angles. There's also some cases where the camera films at normal fps but the computer generates transition frames between them to try to make them feel smoothier.

Second, it might have been Nintendo's intention to add the so called choppyness to the scene or maybe they didn't think the scene would appear so choppy because of the nature of the cut-scene. (For example if you film a static enviroment it will look smooth no matter what is the framerate, likewise in a scene with little movement the choppyness might not be so apparent)
 

granville

GBAtemp Goat
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,102
Trophies
1
Age
35
Location
Orlando, Florida
XP
3,057
Country
United States
I know that can happen a lot, though it tends not to look as good as a camera that is actually set to record at a higher framerate. Mythbusters for example tend to use actual real high speed cameras for certain experiments to record the result in slow motion, it looks gorgeous and much better than videos that are just slowed down artificially using a normal camera with motion blur or whatever applied.

Some LCD TV's have some kind of motion smoothing built in that does something to that effect, doubling the amount of frames and blending the extras together to create a fake sense of smoothness. Some people like it, though many people who value picture quality prefer to switch this effect off. I have an LG LCD TV that does this, whenever I use it I disable the effect.

I'm still working on OOT3D and haven't beaten it, so I can't say what that scene looks like at this point in time. Though i'm very glad the game as a whole runs at a solid 30fps so far now. Much better than the N64 version, which I don't think ever even broke 20...
 

shadowgauge

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2008
Messages
93
Trophies
0
XP
175
Country
United States
Please stop comparing a PC game with a 3ds demo also the games are not 100% percent improved but they are improved none the less and its not really only about the games its about the improvement to the system compared to other updates that claim better stability ,this update demonstrates it which only means better results for us the gamers, this update is not only about frame rates, loading has improved most of all, so what ppl experiencing is the 3ds loading the games information faster not a jump from 30frames to 60 which is why most ppl are confused.I'm pretty sure the 3ds can do alot more but at what cost? Battery life ? Or a roasted system equaling in complainers and ppl that want to sue Nintendo! Come on! Let's be real talk when you have run the actual tests comparisons with the actual hardware and games not PC or video comparisons then I might consider what you have to say about this subject,not trying to be rude just trying to understand your logic which I already get your not impressed with this impressive improvement :P
 

Ergo

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
614
Trophies
0
XP
263
Country
United States
Please stop comparing a PC game with a 3ds demo also the games are not 100% percent improved but they are improved none the less and its not really only about the games its about the improvement to the system compared to other updates that claim better stability ,this update demonstrates it which only means better results for us the gamers, this update is not only about frame rates, loading has improved most of all, so what ppl experiencing is the 3ds loading the games information faster not a jump from 30frames to 60 which is why most ppl are confused.I'm pretty sure the 3ds can do alot more but at what cost? Battery life ? Or a roasted system equaling in complainers and ppl that want to sue Nintendo! Come on! Let's be real talk when you have run the actual tests comparisons with the actual hardware and games not PC or video comparisons then I might consider what you have to say about this subject,not trying to be rude just trying to understand your logic which I already get your not impressed with this impressive improvement :P

Yeah, as I stated waaaay back at the beginning of this thread, the improvements are most obvious when streaming in new data. The 'hiccup' that seemed to occur in a number of titles (the most recent being Luigi) are either vastly improved or eliminated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shadowgauge

granville

GBAtemp Goat
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,102
Trophies
1
Age
35
Location
Orlando, Florida
XP
3,057
Country
United States

I get the feeling you didn't read anything I said in this thread, and yeah you're being pretty rude. When did I say anything about not being impressed about this update? I'm very satisfied with the improvement and have noticed major enhancements as was perfectly obvious in my first post in this thread. Here's a quote of myself for the record again-


There's definitely a massive improvement. It doesn't completely remove all the slowdown in the game, but it's absolutely an extremely clear and blatant improvement. I have played KH3D extensively and am well acquainted with its performance, I can easily tell there's an improvement. I even went online to some videos of it being played on pre-update 3DSes to compare side by side with my own copy on my updated 3DS, and that further backed up that I was seeing a major improvement. So I can personally confirm that KH3D runs better and very noticeably so.

I wasn't comparing loading times or framerates in Rayman Origins, I was comparing the button responsiveness ingame. And compared to other versions, there was never any difference in the first place. If there was any improvement to be made in the first place, the 3DS version would have had worse button responsiveness in comparison with the PC version prior to the update. And having tried the game before and after the update (and again comparing it to the PC version both times), no change at all. The game always responded to button presses 100% identically to the other versions from the very beginning, that was never one of the port's faults and there was nothing to improve in the first place in regards to how well the character responds onscreen to pressing a button. Comparing the button responsiveness to another version of the game (the version that can be considered the best on in fact) and finding there wasn't any difference either before or after is perfectly valid and accurate. It shows that in that regard, there was nothing to improve as there was never a problem with that aspect of the port.

The issues that are plaguing the Rayman Origins port are issues that are inherent with the game's code and wouldn't really be things that would be corrected with a 3DS software update (they'd require much more extensive patching directly from the developers of the games, something that is almost certainly never going to happen unless a game breaking glitch occurs). Particularly the low res and highly compressed graphics (even within the 3DS' already low res screen), the reduced number of enemies shown onscreen, the low quality audio, and capping the framerate at half of all the other versions. The same goes with most of the problems facing Metal Gear Solid 3D- the update may improve certain aspects of the game but it's not going to be able to force the game to run higher than its programmed in 20fps cap, the lower amounts of polygons in character models or the far less dense and lower draw distance on the grass and other foliage.

Again this update clearly showed major improvement, most people seem to agree and are happy with it. I'm incredibly happy with it, and I would suggest you read my other posts before making assumptions that I am "unhappy" about this in any shape or form... I simply disagreed with one of your points on the basis that there was never any problem to begin with, unless you misworded your post and meant something else and we're just having some sort of misunderstanding.
 

shadowgauge

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2008
Messages
93
Trophies
0
XP
175
Country
United States
OK here we go I understand you I just think your comparison of a pc version to a demo is ridiculous. What I'm trying to point out is that I played the game even the demo on both new and old firmware and the button response is smother meaning where the game used to feel floaty when u jumped it over jumped its not only rayman other examples Are fighting game's combos are produced much faster than before I can go on forever but I'll leave it at that cause you have you're opinion and I have mine no hard felling's game on.
 

granville

GBAtemp Goat
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,102
Trophies
1
Age
35
Location
Orlando, Florida
XP
3,057
Country
United States
The reason I disagree is because I recall having this conversation with someone (I believe on this site in fact) about how they thought the demo for Rayman Origins on 3DS felt floatier than the other versions of the game. It was almost a year ago in fact, when the demo first came out. As I had the demo and the full game on PC, I actually compared the two side by side and there was no difference in the response of the controls in either movement or how long Rayman would hang in the air (if he had lingered in the air for longer, then that would be an example of floaty controls, but he stayed in the air for the exact same amount of time in both). I had both versions of the game running simultaneously and synchronized the button presses and watched as the actions onscreen were carried out. I found that actions and animations began and ended at exactly the same time and that the two versions responded identically to pressing the buttons. This has not changed whatsoever post update either.

If there is a change in the retail game and not the demo, then that would mean the 3DS game is now more responsive and has even less floaty controls than the console versions. The game in of itself has somewhat floaty physics and different momentum to previous Rayman games, but despite close inspection I have found no differences in the controls of any version of the game on any platform.

The inherently lower framerate of the 3DS version is what seems to throw people off about the game and makes it feel "off". I have no idea whether the framerate of the full version was improved by the update, but the demo is no different whatsoever. The game is locked at 30fps instead of all other versions' 60fps rate and as such feels half as smooth.
 

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    We just question @AncientBoi
  • ZeroT21 @ ZeroT21:
    it wasn't a question, it was fact
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    He said he had 3 different doctors apt this week, so he prob there. Something about gerbal extraction, I don't know.
    +1
  • ZeroT21 @ ZeroT21:
    bored, guess i'll spread more democracy
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    @K3Nv2 one more time you say such bs to @BakerMan and I'll smack you across the whole planet
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Make sure you smack my booty daddy
    +1
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    telling him that my partner is luke...does he look like someone with such big ne
    eds?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    do you really think I could stand living with someone like luke?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    I suppose luke has "special needs" but he's not my partner, did you just say that to piss me off again?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    besides I had bigger worries today
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    but what do you know about that, you won't believe me anyways
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    @BigOnYa can answer that
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    BigOnYa already left the chat
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Biginya
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Auto correct got me, I'm on my tablet, i need to turn that shit off
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    With other tabs open you perv
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    I'm actually in my shed, bout to cut 2-3 acres of grass, my back yard.
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    I use to have a guy for that thanks richard
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    I use my tablet to stream to a bluetooth speaker when in shed. iHeartRadio, FlyNation
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    While the victims are being buried
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Grave shovel
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Nuh those goto the edge of the property (maybe just on the other side of)
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    On the neighbors side
    +1
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Yup, by the weird smelly green bushy looking plants.
    BigOnYa @ BigOnYa: Yup, by the weird smelly green bushy looking plants.