Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rydian

    Rydian Resident Furvert™
    Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    27,880
    Country:
    United States
    Emulators don't work frame by frame that simply. Even ZSNES doesn't, it works scanline-by-scanline (which is why it can't do certain graphical effects other emulators do that take place mid-scanline). Even as far as input goes, there's mid-frame soft-resets used in some TASes nowadays.

    It's well-known that emulators on the Wii suffer from input lag, and authors have stated it's due to the libraries they use and they can't totally fix it without writing their own functions for basic stuff, which they (understandably) don't want to do. As far as the PC goes, there was likely something specific up with your setup.
     
    the_randomizer likes this.
  2. nintygaming

    nintygaming No Longer An Active Member
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    141
    Country:
    United States
    As I said earlier, it is simply a fact that emulation in general will be laggy when compared to the real thing, regardless of your PC setup. There's just no way around it.
     
  3. Jacobeian

    Jacobeian GBAtemp Advanced Maniac
    Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,889
    Country:
    Cuba
    one or two frames delay is less than 50ms, i doubt your brain/eyes/hands/whatever can catch it so using the word laggy for that is absurd

    some people just like to consider themselves as purists and become obsessed with lags and seeing it everywhere
    If it's true that every layer of emulation (from the acquisition of inputs to the video output) is going to add some delay compared to real hardware but it's unavoidable and unless there is a real bug somewhere or your TV hardware is really crappy, it won't be "laggy".
     
    the_randomizer likes this.
  4. the_randomizer

    the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    30,019
    Country:
    United States
    Funny, I never once was bothered by this lag. Emulation is not perfect, it will never be perfect even if you get it down to the very core of the microprocessors in question, even down to the circuit level, emulation cannot be perfect. There is no substitute for real hardware, however, emulation is more convenient and has many advantages over original hardware. The only way to avoid lag is a CRT TV and the original systems. RetroArch, nor any emulator will ever avoid input lag. It can be reduced to an extent, but never removed. Either people will have to deal with it, or not use emulators at all. I wish I knew WHY this topic is continually brought up. LCD technology is not without its imperfections, and until its flaws can be ironed out, there will always be lag. Plain and simple. I use emulators to, you know, play games. I couldn't give a flying f**k about input lag or audio lag, etc. The authors are not going to bother looking into it, this can't be fixed in the code, so why should they? Emulation is emulating the console via software, requires much more processing power, and it will have flaws, even the beloved Bsnes isn't perfect.

    I have a college-budget HDTV (not Sansui, Westinghouse, Coby or some POS), but this "lag" that so many people are reporting as a "bug" are either hypersensitive, have a super low-end TV or, they have to be purists. I find the fact that purists use emulators to be ironic, if anything, purists should be using the real deal, should they not? My PC has a LED LCD screen with 2 ms of latency, and as a result, never once have I experience emulation lag. Not sure why people are reporting it.

    tl;dr - don't like it, use the real console
     
  5. reprep

    reprep GBAtemp Advanced Fan
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    937
    Country:
    playing on CRT TV and a LED LCD TV really differs. i have 2 mid-high end samsung tvs and they both lag even if you choose game mode. of course i wasn't aware of that lag until i played the same game (donkey kong country) on my crt tv. i could do much better on crt. you won't notice this if you play rpg like games. i play the game from original SNES btw.

    add the emulation latency to the hdtv latency and you will surely feel the lag.that is why i now nearly completely stopped using emulators (except mame and fbanext) and only use my crt tv

    also that 2 ms is nearly never real. even if it was, these values are for digital-to-digital conversions and at a spesific resolution. like using pc and connecting it to the monitor from dvi or hdmi. if you connect your wii to your lcd tv via composite or component, tv has to perform analog-to-digital conversion and the lag will be much more severe.

    has anyone not noticed current-gen games do not need reflexes like the old games? or there is nearly no ddr games?

    you can live with the lag, but it is still there. regardless of you feel it or not.
     
  6. Clydefrosch

    Clydefrosch GBAtemp Guru
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,748
    Country:
    Germany
    so while i guess you've heard these questions way too often already, how good is the cps2 emulation in this really? i found a compatibility list that had lots of 'working' entries. but is it full speed usually? i'm mainly interested in all the street fighter, xmen, marvel, capcom and vs games with either of those. do they run fluidly, or is it more like playing street fighter 2 (not turbo) on supernintendo?

    also, hows the gba performance compared to the vbagx emulator? does lack of fancy gui make it run better or more stable?
     
  7. Rydian

    Rydian Resident Furvert™
    Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    27,880
    Country:
    United States
    Unfortunately, that's probably an outright lie.
    http://gizmodo.com/5669331/why-most-hardware-specs-are-total-bullshit
    https://www.google.com/search?q=why+most+tv+specs+are+bogus
    I'm linking to the Google search as well because there's many articles about this practice, from CNET, NBC, etc. Most of the "stats" that manufacturers put on monitors and TVs (TVs especially) are misleading at best, outright lies at the worst.

    He's right in that modern "smart" TVs introduce latency because they have to put up with bullshit encryption+compression and do post-processing, and while some TVs have a way to turn that off (and call it "game mode"), many TVs nowadays do NOT have the option to turn it off (and instead call a color-adjustment mode "game mode").
     
    the_randomizer likes this.
  8. the_randomizer

    the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    30,019
    Country:
    United States

    Ugh, figures I was wrong about that. Oh well :P Either way, I wish people weren't so nit picky about input lag. It doesn't bother me at all ;) People will never be satisfied with the way emulators are and how they introduce input lag. I couldn't care less anyway.
     
  9. nintygaming

    nintygaming No Longer An Active Member
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    141
    Country:
    United States
    Your post shows clearly that you don't know much of anything about input lag. Those guys from the shoryuken forums who play games that require reflexes of 16ms or less would see your post and burn you with a reply that would have you running away with your tail between your legs.

    However, I'm going to take the nicer approach and just simply acknowledge that your very uninformed and unknowingly ignorant. However, I will say that I can promise you that I'm not lying when I say that games like Mega Man 1 or Mike Tyson's Punch-Out is much, MUCH easier on the real hardware due to not having any input lag. Just try and beat Mike Tyson with "50ms" of input lag, and then try again on the real hardware via a SDTV CRT and tell me without lying that its not noticeable. You can't.

    Input Lag is of the devil, and should not exist, regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not.

    I was a complete fool for every going the emulation route. While I won't go into specifics as to why I did, I will say that returning to the original hardware was 100% worth it. I played on emulators long enough that when I went back to the original hardware, I noticed the tighter, more responsive gameplay almost immediately (and of course I noticed more accuracy on other levels too, such as color, audio, certain pixels, etc). As you said, if your a purist, then use the real thing. And I've always been a purist, and a purist becomes a fool when he doesn't use the real hardware (hence me being a fool).

    P.S. 2ms of input lag on your PC screen? Are you sure that this value is not referring to "Response Time"? Remember, "Response Time" and "Input Lag" are 2 totally different things.

    Exactly. When I see people claim that a human needs superman-like reflexes to notice, I simply have to feel sorry for that individual, as they simply don't realize what they are saying. Heck I own the lowest input lag measured HDTV in existence (Panasonic TC-L32X1) and I still refuse to use it simply because not only do all my games play better on my CRT, but because they look better too.

    Anyway, back to what you were saying........

    Yes, modern games do not require ANYWHERE NEAR the reflexes of older games. Unless we are talking about Street Fighter IV, some wanna-be retro Indie games, or precision-motion controlled games, virtually 99% of gaming since the Polygon Era was introduced (mid-to-late 90s) have not required fast reflexes.

    Picky people need to play the real hardware, as its impossible - as you said earlier - for emulation to be 100% perfect (it is "emulation" for crying out loud).

    Now on the other hand if your referring to being picky about lag on a TV, then we gamers have EVERY RIGHT to be picky, simply because we NEVER EVER had to deal with lag on TV's (prior to the digital age). Introducing gameplay-breaking lag on supposedly "better" TV's is completely unacceptable. But then again, modern TV's are not necessarily better (only thinner and lighter, but who cares about that unless you live in a bathroom or hallway?).

    Anyway, we really shouldn't be discussing TV-related lag in this topic. However, discussing emulator-related lag is OK, but now that we all are fully aware that eliminating lag within emulation is impossible, then we can all move on and talk about something else. The purpose of my post was to simply make sure that you guys are aware of emulation-lag and how its natural within emulation and unavoidable. So I guess I'm done here.
     
  10. chop

    chop GBAtemp Fan
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    Country:
    Wasn't it this input lag argument that lead to the Devs dumping GBATemp
     
  11. VashTS

    VashTS Beat it, son
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Messages:
    4,163
    Country:
    United States
    the amount of time the light takes to get to my eyes from the tv screen is starting to annoy me. its such a large lag i think i might use binoculars to stare at my tv.

    i wish these devs could increase light speed a little. it would make playing emu games sooo much more authentic.
     
    MassiveRican likes this.
  12. the_randomizer

    the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    30,019
    Country:
    United States
    Okay, all right, I admit I confused input lag with response time. There may be some lag, but I for one am not bothered by it. As for accuracy, emulators are spot on with real consoles, unless the audio anomaly you''re referring to is audio lag. As far as sounding like a real console, I doubt anyone can tell a difference between cycle-accurate audio and the real deal (notably the Super Nintendo).

    I'd rather we just leave this debate in the past.

    It was actually. I said what I said just now to set the record straight; purists will like the real hardware more than emulators. Emulators will never be perfect, and input lag is unavoidable with current LCD technology. CRTs are best for old games.

    Let me set the record straight, I do NOT care about input lag, the lag on my TV is virtually nonexistent, same as my PC monitor. I can play any game without detrimental lag. Emulation is not perfect, but I don't give a flying f**k about input accuracy or audio that isn't in sync with video. It's all tripe.

    I'll continue to support Themaister, Squarepusher and ToadKing by using and encouraging others to download RetroArch.
     
  13. nintygaming

    nintygaming No Longer An Active Member
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    141
    Country:
    United States
    Haha you'd be surprised. Purists will know the differences, while others won't. If your not a purist then I have no problem with that. Everyone's personality is wired differently and I try to respect all of them.

    I respect your freedom of choice and I hope I'm not trying to force you to accept my personal tastes and likes and dislikes. As for me, I just cannot accept anything less than the original console. I started with consoles, then became foolish and tried emulation, and now I've come full circle back to the real console like a real purist should. I had to learn the hard way, but man was it worth the learning experience. (I was foolish to do emulation because I was a purist. I'm not calling non-purists who use emulation foolish, so please don't misunderstand me)

    That's nice of you. But in my opinion what really needs to be done is for all of us to give more support to retro game sellers on eBay (I'm referring to reasonable sellers, you know, the one's who don't price gouge and who clean the games thoroughly and replace dead batteries).


    When guys like you say that its impossible for a few frames of delay of affect gameplay, they are missing the obvious point due to being mesmerized by the numbers of milliseconds vs. what happens in reality. While I could use hundreds of games for an example, allow me to use "Battletoads" for my "in-reality" example. The Clinger-Winger stage alone requires less than 1 frame (16ms) or less of reaction time for each turn you make on those corners (and most emulators lag by 3 frames on average, yikes!). You need to be virtually 100% precise or the ball of doom will kill you in no time. Just ask anyone who's played this stage on an emulator vs. the real console on a SDTV and they ALWAYS respond in the affirmative with "its much easier on the real hardware!" Why? Because the real hardware does not lag AT ALL. I could also cite the rat race stage, or perhaps the turbo tunnel.....in fact I'll let someone else speak of it.

    As one user from racketboy stated

    So Jacobeian I suppose your not playing really demanding games like Battletoads, and are perhaps not very skilled and have gotten use to lag, and perhaps even play games that actually have lag built into them (ie; Super Mario World has 1 frame of lag on Mario's Jump, although others claim its 2 frames which is untrue). Now based on your elitist sounding posts I can guarantee that you will continue to ignore reality and make your erroneous claims that lag doesn't affect gameplay. In fact I'm certain that you will balk back at me soon claiming that I'm wrong. Whatever you must tell yourself to help yourself sleep better or to justify not paying for your games, go for it.

    And to further sum things up, take anyone who has set world records on Battletoads, Mega Man 1, or Mike Tyson's Punch Out or any other timing-oriented demanding game and force them to even TRY to match their previous world record.....its impossible. It will never happen. Not even with months of retraining their brain and nerves to somehow magically compensate for the lag that you claim doesn't hurt a thing.

    Once again, Input Lag is of the devil, and should not exist, regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not.


    Anyway, I really don't need to be posting on this forum anymore simply because I no longer use emulation (heck I've recently virginized my Wii). All I really wanted to do was make everyone here fully aware of the 3+ frames of input lag that is standard in emulation, to hopefully encourage less copyright infringement and more supporting of buying the real thing because there are honest people who are doing their best to make an honest living off of reselling these classics and the one's that thoroughly clean and refurbish these games should be supported for the sake of small businesses. Can't afford it? Then I'd suggest that you save your money till you can. But your free to do otherwise, that's the beauty of free will.

    So since I don't belong here anyone, I guess I'm finished here and if anyone wants to argue with me, please send me a PM because I will no longer be responding on this forum, not even to rude replies.
     
  14. Ray Lewis

    Ray Lewis Banned
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,518
    Country:
    United States
    Tried retro arch on 360. Took time to figure out the Atari themed options and ROM support was "Inconsistent" to say the least. The program had promise but left me feeling betrayed, lol. I expected a lot more compatibility with ROMs for a multi-emulator. I get the purity view. I hope the version I tried is not a port from other systems. That 360 version seemed silly when individual emulators worked and Mame covered most other classics.
     
  15. Etheboss

    Etheboss Official LULWUT supporter
    Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,445
    Country:
    Netherlands
    You are missing the point of retroarch here. It's meant to be one core that works on different platforms with as little comprimising as possible.
    The developers hate frame skipping for example so they try to let the rom work without trics at max speed. They still need to tweak bits for every platform though, but roms not working could also be because your setup is wrong, some emu's need extra files like bios files...if one is missing the game won't work. And there could be more "other" reasons why the rom does't work.
     
    the_randomizer likes this.
  16. the_randomizer

    the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    30,019
    Country:
    United States
    Some people are just ungrateful...shame really. I love RetroArch, I firmly believe it to be the best emulator for the Wii, yes, even surpassing that of the Virtual Console, the main reason because it actually looks good on a HDTV at 480p :P
    I for one am glad there is no frame skipping or other game-breaking hacks and yet, to achieve full speed on Snes ROMs is a miracle in and of itself, like Star Fox, Yoshi's Island and in the next version Kirby's Dream Land 3! The game uses pseudo hi-res mode 7 for transparency, but Squarepusher informed me that as of last month, the game was at 98% full speed (a few parts slow down underwater), and that Seiken Densetsu 3 also worked at full speed with variable width font.
     
    MassiveRican likes this.
  17. Ray Lewis

    Ray Lewis Banned
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,518
    Country:
    United States
    Yeah, so maybe it changed. Still, I used other emulators that worked with east-to-follow options. People like it, cool. Never had issues with any emulators. Things change, lol, only my experience earlier. Seemed unnecessary but again, if some like it, enjoy it.
     
  18. Jacobeian

    Jacobeian GBAtemp Advanced Maniac
    Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,889
    Country:
    Cuba
    ... and I think you are just trolling us but that's ok because that is what this thread is for right ?
    :-)

    I really don't care what some self-called experts obsessed by watching themselves playing old games can claim, i think that people say they can feel a 16.6 ms lag because either 1) they just want to appear special from other people (snobish "purist" attitude) or 2) they know in the first place that emulation introduces some lag and it affects their judgement (placebo effect)

    I don't deny there is some added latency, it's bound to the nature of emulation. More exactly there is:
    - lag if you use a keyboard or anything with slower response time than a real controller
    - lag caused by the code (driver, os,...) which reads controller data
    - latency due to input driver refresh period
    - from one to two frames latency due to emulator period(s) for reading driver data and updating screen accordingly (can be reduced to one frame if coded properly but not more)
    - latency due to video driver refresh period
    - lag caused by image processing on TV

    Also i don't deny that modern TV processing adds some NOTICEABLE lag but that's WAY MORE than a few frames latency caused by emulator processing.

    I am using Wii SNES, PCE & GEN emus with a CRT screen with original controllers connected to GC adapters and I personally feel that they are as fast and as responsive as the real thing when played side by side.
    So, in my opinion, people who say they suddenly saw the Light and cannot play games correcly on emulators anymore, that the Real Thing (TM) is the only pure way to go, blablabla... are just trying to convince themselves that something they know that exists (especially when they are going through measuring it "scientifically" using some some ultrafast camera captures) is going to affect their way of playing games in a noticeable way and that suddenly they can "feel" delays shorter than 1/10 of a second.
     
    zerofalcon and Rydian like this.
  19. Ray Lewis

    Ray Lewis Banned
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,518
    Country:
    United States
    Actually, the human body can interpret delays, sound variance, etc. As long as an emulator is close and controls are solid I am happy. The interface, options, spotty compatibility for ROMs turned me off. This is not trolling. I don't see the point in molding it all together. For my needs, fire up nes, SNES, genesis, Atari, GB, GBA, neo geo, psx (PC) and have easier to follow menus. Mame annoyed me also but some arcade games worked.

    Some like the concept of retro arch and I may revisit it. However, some like onions, some don't; hardly trolling.
     
  20. Jacobeian

    Jacobeian GBAtemp Advanced Maniac
    Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,889
    Country:
    Cuba
    i wasn' actually responding to your post but to nintygaming last flash of inspiration
     
    Ray Lewis likes this.
Loading...

Hide similar threads Similar threads with keywords - RetroArch, emulator, system

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.