PS4 & XONE CPU Architectures & Models Examined

[Rydian]

I'm sure things will be cleared up during E3. If it is an overseeer OS running two kernels via virtualization, it's not so bad. There will be some performance loss, yeah, but they still get full hardware access and it gives you the added benefit of doing fancy stuff with'em on-screen.

I'm just wondering why they didn't go "all the way" and just made it Windows-based - the Windows kernel is perfectly capable of running games - strip the unnecessary functionality out and bang, you got yourself some embedded gaming Windows (and loads of security concerns with it, but that's besides the point).

With Windows, it's unfortunately hard to strip things out since it's simply not modular. Look at how IE couldn't be uninstalled for like 10 years (as the rendering engine was used for help file reading) as an example. The OS is built always assuming that everything's there, and it cross-references functions out the ass (notably different from the UNIX approach).

So my bet is either virtualization (the component to merge is maybe fancy on-screen stuff with virtualized windows?), or it's not three kernels, just term mixup.

 

[Coto]

Like I said, the Dreamcast as a system had no Windows CE components embedded into it - the hardware was Windows CE-Compatible and some games (not all) which used Windows CE features had their own own distribution of the kernel with all the modules they needed.

But games relied on directx, which was part of the CE* microsoft kernel runtime, running in background

 

[Foxi4]

But games relied on directx, which was part of the CE* microsoft kernel runtime, running in background

Read the quote I added. The kernel itself was on the discs of games that actually needed it so that each game has a system version that perfectly supports it - it's like proto-updates, really. The use of Windows CE was not mandatory.

This is a list of all the games that used Windows CE components:

4x4 Evolution
Apricot (T37910M)
Armada (T40301N 00)
Atari Anniversary Edition (T15130N)
Caesars Palace 2000 (T-12504N)
Championship Surfer (T41403N)
Densha de Go 2 (jp)
Ducati World (T-8113N)
Get!! Colonies (jp)
Hidden and Dangerous (T-40502-N)
Hundred Swords (HDR-0124)
Jimmy Whites Snooker 2 (eu)
KISS Psycho Circus (T41901N)
Kitahei Gold (T39801M)
Maximum Pool
Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Vol. 1 (T-9713N)
Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Vol. 2 (T-9714N)
Miss Moonlight (T18702M)
NFL Quarterback Club 2001 (T-8115N)
Nightmare Creatures II (T9504M)
Puzzle Bobble 4 (aka Bust-A-Move 4
Railroad Tycoon II (T41902N)
Rainbow Six (T40401N)
Resident Evil 2 (T7004D 50)
Rogue Spear|Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rouge Spear
Rune Jade (T14304M)
Sega Rally 2 (MK-5101950, HDR0010)
South Park: Chefs Luv Shack
Space Griffon|Space Griffon VF-9 (T39601M) (jp)
Space Griffon|Space Griffon Blue Steel: Variable Formula (jp)
Spirit of Speed 1937
Starlancer
Super Producers (T14303M)
Super Robot Wars Alpha (jp)
Super Runabout (T22101M)
Super Runabout|Super Runabout: San Francisco Edition
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six
Tomb Raider Chronicles (T36815D05)
Tomb Raider The Last Revelation (T-36806N, T36804D05)
Virtua Cop 2
White Illumination (T14301M)
Who Wants To Beat Up A Millionaire
Wild Metal (T40501D-50)
World Neverland 2|World Neverland 2 Plus: The Waktic Republic of Pluto (jp)
World Neverland Plus|World Neverland Plus: The Olerud Kingdom Stories (jp)
Worms Armageddon
Worms World Party
Yuki Gatari (T37909M)


- Other: -
Half-Life (Bootleg)
QuakeDC (Titanium Studios, Freeware)
Defense Commander (Titanium Studios, Freeware)
PBA Bowling (Bootleg)
Retro Sonic (Freeware)
GypPlay (Freeware
BoobPlay (Freeware
Sintendo (Freeware)
Gleam (Freeware)

The rest was built using the Katana SDK, not the Windows CE SDK - two different development kits.

 

[Coto]

Read the quote I added. The kernel itself was on the discs of games that actually needed it so that each game has a system version that perfectly supports it - it's like proto-updates, really. The use of Windows CE was not mandatory.

windows is a gui plus the background kernel. the enum and services rely on the kernel, so dreamcast runs both windows CE, and games relying on windows CE platform (through directx libs)

 

[Foxi4]

windows is a gui plus the background kernel. the enum and services rely on the kernel, so dreamcast runs both windows CE, and games relying on windows CE platform (through directx libs)

*sighs* There are two official development kits for the system - one speaks to the hardware directly (Katana) and one uses a Windows CE kernel and DirectX embedded into the game itself (Windows CE Toolkit, I believe it's the 2.1 version). They're two separate entities. Not all games rely on Windows CE or DirectX libraries because not all games use them, in fact, the majority doesn't.

Imagine a situation like with native PSVita applications and the PSMobile applications. They both run on the PSVita, except the PSVita ones speak directly to the PSVita's hardware and the PSMobile ones speak to it via the Mono framework.

You have the exact same situation with the Dreamcast - the games written on the Katana worked directly on the hardware, the ones written on the Windows CE 2.1 SDK worked on-top of a Windows CE kernel that was working in the background along with whatever modules the developer wanted to include.

In other words, the Dreamcast could run a Windows CE kernel and could use DirectX, but in most games it didn't. Windows CE elements were usually implemented when the game was ported from the PC (which used DirectX) to facilitate the porting process - in other cases, the Katana was preferable as it gave more resources to the developer.

In any case, we're going terribly off-topic here.

 

[Coto]

but games were tweaked to run *through* directx what does that mean for you?

The Dreamcast console does not actually ship with Windows CE built in. The operating system, DirectX, and the game itself are built as one image and stored on the GD-ROM. When the GD-ROM is placed in the Dreamcast console, the boot ROM loads the bootstrap code, which then loads the Windows CE operating system. This way, there are no versioning issues. You ship the version of Windows CE your game was developed on with your game, so there is no need to worry if the user has the correct version installed or not. There are, of course, differences between the Win32 and DirectX on Dreamcast compared to the desktop. There is no Windows UI (no Windows Explorer, Start menu, and so on), so the game is in charge of providing the entire user interface. There is no support for multiple windows either; the game runs in full-screen exclusive mode with DirectDraw and Direct3D as the primary graphics APIs. Like other Windows CE platforms, you can pick and choose which components you wish to build with your game. For example, if your game does not make any use of the networking features of Dreamcast, you don't have to include DirectPlay or Winsock.
Because Windows CE does not provide its own UI for the Dreamcast, much of the functionality of the Win32 user component as been removed. Only the APIs for accessing resources and some user input WM_* messages are supported. Specifically, those actually dealing with window elements like buttons or menus are removed. Similarly, much of the GDI has been removed because DirectDraw and Direct3D are the main graphics APIs. What's left of the GDI is support for loading fonts and bitmaps. A new Dreamcast-specific API has been introduced that allows read/write permission to the Visual Memory System devices mentioned earlier. For using the Dreamcast communication features, the standard Win32 serial communications API is supported, as well as Winsock 1.1.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms834186.aspx#dxinwince_topic9

Are we clear now?

 

[Foxi4]

but games were tweaked to run *through* directx what does that mean for you? (...) Are we clear now?

This applies to the games which use Windows CE and DirectX and those games only - not all Dreamcast games have the Windows CE kernel on the disc (in fact most don't), that's what I'm trying to explain to you. The MSDN article applies only to developers who choose to use Microsoft's development kit, not SEGA's own Katana kit.

 

[ComeTurismO]

So, the PS4 is better in quality?

 

[SirAileron]

yeap, but all of those games are just re-releases
they've been releasing all of their new games on Nintendo consoles... but they haven't produced anything new since S&P2 :/
I wonder if they will switch to Microsoft in this gen

Well, while most of their games are re-releases, but my monitors don't have connectors for the old systems anymore. Bangai-O! Missile Fury HD is a proper sequel, though, and it is a godly sequel.

 

[hhs]

If it costs $100 less and the two systems continue to share, like, 80% of their total game library (withholding exclusives), I don't see why someone wouldn't, so long as the games aren't perpetually priced as high as possible (Xbox is looking a lot like how Origin...).

I'm actually super interested in what the launch prices will be. If they're high enough, it might end up that getting a gaming PC would be more economic than going with a dedicated console. Sony at least is looking to offer exclusive games worth getting on their systems.

I agree about the gaming pc comment but the xbox one being 100 dollars cheaper still wouldn't compensate for the monthly internet cost and used game fees if they exist. Odds are you'll want your system for more than a year which means the ps4 would become cheaper within the second year or sooner.

 

[Coto]

Yes, I was referring to CE's kernel based games released on DC, and how they used directx to i/o most game rendering. Katana SDK IS the main SDK provided by sega to port games..

anyway good offtopic

-

XONE's less heat and good motherboard design means it'll improve both power consumption & hardware degradation because of heat. And I bet those clocks could be run at faster speeds) x86 on hardware is what a gaming CPU needs today, add that OpenCL / CUDA and you've got an awesome gaming machine.

Buut i'm against m$ paid online, and its exclusives.

 

[raulpica]

Rydian totally stole my news

You meanie

 

[Rydian]

Rydian totally stole my news

You meanie

I'll make it up to you later with that thing I do.

Such as not reading threads that I assume are just flamewars. XD

 

[Originality]

Reading this... I kinda wonder if I'm the only one feeling meh about both PS4 and Xbone. Neither the technology nor the hype seem to get me excited.

Oh right, I forgot. It's the games that matter. I'll pay more attention when they start talking more about the games these game consoles are meant to play

 

[Sakitoshi]

mmmm.... thinking about this I remembered that amd has 8 core customer cpus, the FX 8xxx series, I really doubt they will be using dual APU there, the integrated graphics are good, but not THAT good, if they plan to put these processors to work, better get a monster GPU instead of a all-in-one APU. I have an AMD laptop with a A8-4500M and the difference between the 7640G and discrete 7670M is more than 3 times more powerful. and will be more cheap have only 1 CPU eightcore that 2 CPUs quadcore, and they save hassle of set a crossfire between APUs.

 

[Psionic Roshambo]

Love the hardware on these new machines, just not the rest of the baggage that comes with them...