OTPless method should be returned for reducing brick chance

Discussion in '3DS - Flashcards & Custom Firmwares' started by NermaN, Jan 18, 2017.

  1. NermaN
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    NermaN Member

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    As i think, safehax+fasthax should work for OTPless method on 11.2, I used it before (with 9.2) for around 5 consoles with no bricks. Using it now probably can be very simple.

    People who constantly read this forum see how many people do bricks because of stupid mistakes during following guide. Returning OTP method can reduce guide size dramatically. So - less steps to fail -> less chance to brick. Even with just common sense it is not safe to flash firmware at all (there is chance for fail at any writes). So less flashing -> less bricks.

    OTPless, even if it has some small chance to brick (which is unconfirmed for last versions), can probably reduce brick rate. It can make installation as easy as just chainloading a9lh install tool and pressing select. No 2.1, no lid problems, no flashing huge binary blobs, no power issues (because there is no long operations).
     


  2. Bu2d85

    Bu2d85 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    I've already done three consoles on 11.2 using the OTPless method. It scares me every time but it works.

    The difference between the two methods is that bricks from following the guide are mostly caused by user error. With the OTPless method you can do everything right and still brick.
     
  3. OrGoN3

    OrGoN3 GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    No. OTPless has a chance of randomly bricking
     
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  4. Xiphiidae

    Xiphiidae ξίφος εἶδος

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    Most people have come to the conclusion that the random brick chance of OTPless is worse than the inconvenience of having to downgrade to 2.1.0 (which has an effective brick chance of 0% of there is no user error).

    Until the random brick chance of OTPless is eliminated, I believe it shouldn't be readded to the guide.

    Your claim of "less writes, less bricks" is false (hence the higher brick rate for OTPless), and your points about lid and power issues is moot if users take the proper precautions.
     
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  5. Akira

    Akira I'm not a SHRIMP!!!!

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    I rather use ctrnand transfer. Although otpless is faster, i don't want to risk that chance to brick a new 3ds. It's just not worth risking a console you buy or even save money for months and have it bricked even though you followed the guide to the T. I rather wait for 20-30 minutes for the ctrnand transfer, than having a $200 door stop.
     
    Last edited by Akira, Jan 18, 2017
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  6. squall14716

    squall14716 GBAtemp Maniac

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    Bricks due to 2.1 downgrade are largely user error. Bricks due to OTPless install are random. All you have to do to not brick on 2.1 downgrade is to know how to read and follow directions. There's no way to reduce your odds of bricking from OTPless.
     
  7. NermaN
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    NermaN Member

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    Some people just can't follow guide, it would be better for them to have simple safe guide. There is no reason to think that OTPless brick flaw is impossible to fix, OTPless bricks can be restored, unlike lid bricks as far as i know.

    Why do you think that OTP is more danger than stupid user who can't follow guide?
     
  8. Xiphiidae

    Xiphiidae ξίφος εἶδος

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    If a stupid user is going to brick because they can't read, then it doesn't really matter what method they use.

    No-one is claiming that the OTPless brick risk is impossible to fix, but until it is fixed, there's no reason why people shouldn't use the 2.1.0 ctrtransfer method.

    Lid bricks only apply to New 3DSs, and I would argue that these account for a minority of A9LH installation-related bricks. There are plenty of other bricks that can be restored as well.

    Your entire premise is built on the idea that OTPless is somehow less safe, which is just isn't. It's not difficult to read a guide, but it's just stupid to recommend a method that has a chance to brick anyone regardless of whether there's user error or not. Are you just salty because you bricked your N3DS by closing the lid on 2.1.0?
     
    Last edited by Xiphiidae, Jan 18, 2017
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  9. pbanj

    pbanj The "friendly" neighborhood sandwich

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    as someone who has had to fix many bricks from otpless. it shouldn't come back until it is fully fixed
     
  10. Elveman

    Elveman B9S Shitpost Race Smogonite

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    The math is simple:

    You follow the current guide -> no brick
    You don't follow the current guide -> potential brick

    vs.

    You follow the guide with OTPless -> potential brick
    You don't follow the guide with OTPless -> potential brick

    IMO the guide should be oriented at people who follow it rather than who don't and shouldn't put the responsibility for bricks at dev, but at user. It's not like devs aren't trying to fix it, they do, but safety of the guide should really only rely on the user, and not on RNG. What's the point of doing everything as safe as possible, if there's a part where you can brick absolutely randomly without a reason? That's why this part is made as safe as possible as well. It's just easier to not let yourself close the lid than fix the brick that happened because of technical fault
     
    Last edited by Elveman, Jan 18, 2017
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  11. tech3475

    tech3475 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    Personally, Id would rather be told to follow the guide which has the reduced chance if i follow it EXACTLY over the one where I could brick randomly even if I do everything right.
     
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  12. Lilith Valentine

    Lilith Valentine GBATemp's Wolfdog™ Cuddle lesbian derp

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    It wasn't removed because of the bricks. It was removed because no one knows why the systems bricked. Countless hours of testing and updates have not shown an accurate reason for the bricks.
     
  13. Quantumcat

    Quantumcat Dead and alive

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    Well, yes it was - if the reason was known then the reason could be fixed. Then no more bricks = back in the guide.
    If the reason was known but not fixed it wouldn't be put back.
     
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  14. windhazard

    windhazard GBAtemp Regular

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    In order to use OTPless on 11.2, I only need to rename the installer payload to arm9.bin then launch safehax right?
     
  15. Lilith Valentine

    Lilith Valentine GBATemp's Wolfdog™ Cuddle lesbian derp

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    You just kind of cleared up my post, lol.
    I suggest if you have to ask, to not use this method. This method was known to cause random bricks and if you don't have a hardmod with a NAND backup. Your system has a high chance of perma-bricking
     
    Last edited by Lilith Valentine, Jan 18, 2017
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  16. ManuelKoegler

    ManuelKoegler GBAtemp Fan

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    I would support the decision to have OTPless method come back. There are only a few reported brick cases for it which could be attributed to a multitude of things (like a corrupted SD), furthermore it can't be proven that the bricks weren't due to user error.
    People may simply not have known it was their fault, or didn't want to come out as stupid for messing their 3DS up because they screwed something up. What can be confirmed though is that the creator of the otpless method has not once been able to reproduce these supposedly random bricks, likely because they know what they're doing and thus aren't messing up any steps.
    I don't feel it's right to go all scourched earth on this convenient method because there are a few unproven cases of random bricks. If anything it should come back to the 3ds.guide with a (huge) disclaimer saying that this experimental method could save you loads of time but potentially brick. Leave it in the hands of the user, and in the case of the user, just make sure to create a nand backup beforehand so you could save your 3ds in case it is to brick, then you could consult a hardmodder.


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    Last edited by ManuelKoegler, Jan 18, 2017
  17. Xiphiidae

    Xiphiidae ξίφος εἶδος

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    This is wrong. It has been confirmed that OTPless bricks can occur with SDs that are known to be free of corruption (though that's not to say that corrupted couldn't've caused some of them), and that there are a number of bricks due to OTPless that simply cannot be attributed to user error. There have been number of theories on what exactly causes the bricks, but sadly the flaw itself remains unknown and has not yet been fixed. I suggest you read up more on OTPless and the bricks that it has caused, because you just don't know what you're talking about. The idea that OTPless (in its current implementation) is inherently just as safe as performing a ctrtransfer is just plain false.
     
    Last edited by Xiphiidae, Jan 18, 2017
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  18. ManuelKoegler

    ManuelKoegler GBAtemp Fan

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    Well again, it doesn't have to be a corrupted SD, it could also, for example, be faulty RAM. And has there been any video proof at all of an otpless brick, or a brick in the presence of the creator, because otherwise we'll have to take the user's word for it, whether it's true or not.

    Also doesn't defeat my point of allowing it to be on plailect's with a disclaimer, it's the user that in the end decides what to do with his system. Also I'm sure you've noticed the disclaimer already present on plailect's guide stating there's ALWAYS a chance at a brick, even with official firmware updates, I'm sure there have been people that bricked following the guide and don't know why (probably, again, user error), it's just that the numbers are so low that the guide, because the guide in itself is pretty much flawless, same case for otpless method.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the brick cases of otpless shouldn't be looked into, I'm just saying we shouldn't repeal the possibility for the user to make his own choice to go about installing a9lh.


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  19. Xiphiidae

    Xiphiidae ξίφος εἶδος

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    Which is exactly my point; that user error doesn't play a role.

    I don't believe so, but those involved have tested (I believe) and have identified that there is a chance of random bricking. Why else would they try to combat it in updates, and eventually remove it from the guide entirely? (Especially considering they were adamant about it being user error at first.)

    Perhaps, but I believe that a guide as popular as Plailect's has a particular level of responsibility considering that so many people use it, and I would argue that having OTPless as a suggestion is irresponsible, as it just opens people to up to random bricking, when there's no good reason not to do a ctrtransfer, which has an effectively zero chance of bricking anyway.

    I don't disagree, I just don't think that it's the guide's place to do that. If you really want to use OTPless (and put yourself at unnecessary risk), then it's your responsibility to educate yourself about it.
     
    Last edited by Xiphiidae, Jan 18, 2017
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  20. ManuelKoegler

    ManuelKoegler GBAtemp Fan

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    Won't argue with your other points, because they make sense, just want to make light of your choice of words regarding a ctrtransfer "effectively" having zero chance of brick, not definitively, just like one could consider otpless effectively being brickless (though admittedly I don't know the number of reported bricks caused by it, probably higher in percentages since it wasn't widely adopted before being sh*tcanned)

    Also right on your last point, if you really want to apply otpless method, you could find out how to do it. Plailect may be best focussing on refining his guide providing the tried and true method.




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  21. NermaN
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    NermaN Member

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    As my expirence in some client oriented software show, 3% of bricks using OTPless seems allmost like some kind of user error or hw issue (there is higher chance of getting one of those with CTR). There was none such research for ctrtransfer also. Probably we would get something around 97% of success too. OTPless safety research: https://www.reddit.com/r/3dshacks/c...for_everyone_whos_tried_otpless_a9lh/danv80h/

    Then, maybe OTPless should be returned to guide with notice as faster, and probably more dangerous way of getting hacked 3DS, and maybe user should be asked exactly after OTP install to fill form about success of it? Then we will get real numbers. I think danger of OTPless method is exaggerated because of fear about it. On Russian forums, last time when i checked it (may be old information), there was no OTPless bricks at all.
     
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