MS on Blu-Ray - "Who needs it?"

[purplesludge]

You've got to say Blu-Ray for consoles is a bit of failure, the read speeds are too slow and most of the discs are under utilized. All it's really done is made the console more expensive. It's only really useful if you want to use your PS3 to play movies.

This is one of the reasons I got rid of my ps3.
I wasn't using it to play movies and the games I played were on Xbox and PC.

 

[Schlupi]

Red Box, here in the states is a kiosk machine that stores DVD and Blu-Ray movies, and you can rent them by day.

Now, I really like the idea of that, it's like a cross between Netflix and Blockbuster, and there is literally one on ever damn corner. You go to McDonald's, Red Box. You go to Wal-mart, Red Box. You go to Wal-Greens, Red Box.

Now answer me this question... Why would I pay $3.99 for a 24 hour Digital rental from a place like Amazon VOD, when I can literally walk 3 blocks from my house and rent the same Blu-Ray for $1.50 a day?

Yeah. That is so true. Ever since Redbox started up they have been dominating DVD rentals. I really like them too. Find it funny BlockBuster finally went under.

 

[EpicJungle]

Sony on Halo: who needs it

Answer: EyePet

LOLOLOLOL

_______

I like blu-ray though

 

[jumpman17]

Considering most PS3 games don't even go past the size of a normal dual-layer DVD, I don't see the point of them either. Maybe with the next gen when textures and stuff take more space, it'll be needed, but for now, I don't see it. I'm not even sold yet that Blu-Ray will even last. I think disc media is on it's way out. The cost of flash media is so cheap anymore, plus the lack of having to have a complicated spinning disc drive and laser, I see movies and games in the future coming on DS sized cartridges.

 

[SPH73]

Next gen consoles will not use bluray. Instead they will use a modified HD version of existing DVD format. (Some people have nicknamed this technology "hollow ray.") Higher read speads than bluray, faster data transfer, and hopefully no need for lengthy mandatory game installations. (as is the case with the bluray format)

 

[monkat]

I think we should go back to $80 cartridges.

 

[MelodieOctavia]

I think we should go back to $80 cartridges.

Nah, we should put everything back on floppies again.

 

[TM2-Megatron]

There's nothing quite like installing Windows or Office from a set of 25 floppies.

 

[Ace Gunman]

I haven't read any of the posts in this topic, but in regards to the article I think this particular executive might be a bit short sighted. First off, let me just say that blu-ray for the XBox 360 now would be pointless. It would just be a pricey movie watching addon like the HD-DVD drive.

Lets get this bit out of the way... The next generation of consoles will likely all be Blu-ray compatible, even if not for games (though I will go into that in more detail in a moment). At the very least they will all need to retain a disc drive for the CDs, DVDs, and Blu-rays people already own, not to mention backwards compatibility of some sort.

The biggest issues with the so-called death of physical media (IE discs) are as follows: 1) Harddrives only have so much space. Yes, 250GBs is the new go-to standard for the middle of the range consoles, but as games start becoming bigger and bigger (which isn't a huge problem yet, but will be some day), 250GBs isn't going to seem like a lot when each game is 25GBs.

2) Executives with their talk of streaming games via cloud computing and digital downloads SEVERELY overestimate the general populations access to sufficient internet speeds. I have a 25Mbps connection, but most people are closer to the range of 5 - 10. Which means to download even a 7GB game takes aaaaaages.

3) This is my number one issue. The loss of physical media means abandoning our current game libraries, which would be awful, but more than that it means losing control over our content. Lets say I download a full-length digital retail game. Then one day, one of the big three companies has a severe server compromise. The accounts are lost in a crash, all data pertaining to purchases is gone, and for some reason your HDD decided that was the day it was going to die.

What that means is that you have ZERO claim over your media. No way at all to prove that you ever owned those games and that they should be restored. There is no physical disc you can turn to, nothing. They're just gone, and Sony and Microsoft think you're a liar because "you couldn't possibly have had all the games you're claiming to have lost". Even if you could prove it, it won't be easy.

Owning your media, really owning it as a physical copy, that means something. Its a permanent record and proof of ownership. If your console and account is banned, be it fairly or unfairly, your media, that you paid for, is now no longer yours. Essentially with digital you own nothing, you're really just renting it. With the occasional Arcade title, I don't mind that. Its a 200MB game, it cost $7, big whoop. With $60? Its a whole different ball game.

 

[DSGamer64]

Blu Ray will be essential in the coming years for storage media in larger capacities as we delve into 3D and various other high definition media content such as video games and films. Most Hollywood films are filmed in high definition anyway and scaled down for their DVD releases while they remain at their standard resolution for high definition. It's pretty much impossible to improve the video quality on non high definition recorded films, while ones that are can be scaled down. Since almost all film studios are jumping on Blu Ray and still releasing DVD versions of their movies, I would say that it's become a pretty popular piece of storage media. While we are still probably a good 5 years off from fully utilizing the full capabilities which Sony has claimed to be a 4 layer disc with up to 200GB in capacity and we lack proper drives to even read discs of that size and probably won't see even dual layer capable ones for quite a while, if at all seeing as how in film they are still using a single disc with room to spare for a full length movie.

 

[DSGamer64]

2) Executives with their talk of streaming games via cloud computing and digital downloads SEVERELY overestimate the general populations access to sufficient internet speeds. I have a 25Mbps connection, but most people are closer to the range of 5 - 10. Which means to download even a 7GB game takes aaaaaages.

And when you live in a nation where one of the largest service providers (Bell) has basically outlawed unlimited bandwidth and yet we still get screwed for a 10Mb connection, digital distribution is a long way off, not just in Canada but many other regions of the world. It might be fine in a place like Japan where high speed fiber optic lines capable of 100Mb types of speeds are easy to come by, that is because they are small regions compared to the likes of Canada and the USA. We are probably a good 10 years from having that kind of infrastructure where we will have access to those types of connections because right now the market for most higher speed internet connections is very small due to the high cost and the lack of access in many areas. A friend of mine wanted to get the 50Mb Rogers connection but where he lives, in the same city as me and not even 10 minutes by car, does not have the service installed yet while someone he works with who lives another 10 minutes away from him is able to get it because they have it installed in that area. Pretty sure they just put in the services in my area for those connections as well and where my friend lives is not a cluster of large family housing, mostly semi detached homes where students live and they certainly wouldn't want to foot the bill for a 50Mb connection.

And as a WoW player, I can sympathize anyone who deals with digital distribution, fricking patches take forever and are usually the size of a single DVD layer. I like digital distribution because it's convenient, however when you have limited bandwidth every month and only a 10Mb connection, which honestly should be unlimited downloading for that speed, it gets to be a hassle trying to buy all the games you want every month off Steam.

 

[tk_saturn]

Lets get this bit out of the way... The next generation of consoles will likely all be Blu-ray compatible, even if not for games (though I will go into that in more detail in a moment). At the very least they will all need to retain a disc drive for the CDs, DVDs, and Blu-rays people already own, not to mention backwards compatibility of some sort.
It's a big assumption they all will have one, especially considering these continued statements MS keeps making.

The biggest issues with the so-called death of physical media (IE discs) are as follows: 1) Harddrives only have so much space. Yes, 250GBs is the new go-to standard for the middle of the range consoles, but as games start becoming bigger and bigger (which isn't a huge problem yet, but will be some day), 250GBs isn't going to seem like a lot when each game is 25GBs.

Remove the Blu-Ray drive, and you plenty of space in the console for a 3.5" HDD. Given the replacement consoles are far off, 2TB wouldn't cost them much.

2) Executives with their talk of streaming games via cloud computing and digital downloads SEVERELY overestimate the general populations access to sufficient internet speeds. I have a 25Mbps connection, but most people are closer to the range of 5 - 10. Which means to download even a 7GB game takes aaaaaages.

I have 8Meg, and it's more than fast enough for that. I have a couple of 1.5TB drives and a Usenet connection...

I'll admit downloading StarCraft from Blizzard's was painfully slow, but that was an issue with their bandwidth and not mine. Good job there were other torrents with it. If say MS were to go this route, they would have to have the bandwidth for it with plenty of peering.

On most games, much of that games disk usage is taken up by FMV. I would really hope the nextgen consoles have enough power to use ingame engines rather than continue to rely on FMV. I've browsed X360 images and quite a few have FMV from the ingame engine such as for demos, intros etc.

QUOTE3) This is my number one issue. The loss of physical media means abandoning our current game libraries, which would be awful, but more than that it means losing control over our content. Lets say I download a full-length digital retail game.

Not really. There's no guarentee future consoles will be compatible with this generation. While Sony had good intentions, we know how that turned out. Let's not forget Microsoft, they will sell an additional addon optical drive at a vastly inflated price.

QUOTE

Then one day, one of the big three companies has a severe server compromise. The accounts are lost in a crash, all data pertaining to purchases is gone

They will have backups, because if they don't they will be in serious trouble.

I really do believe that atleast one of the next gen consoles won't have an optical drive, ie Microsoft. Nintendo I doubt it. Sony are damned if they do and damned if they don't, they will also want something which differentiates their console from Microsofts.

You need to think of the future, they are still 3-4 years off. Then the consoles will around around for 7odd years. D2D gives them more freedom and alot heaps more profit cutting out the used market, provided they can overcome it's hurdles.

PSN/ XBLA have gotten people used to downloading content, this is simply the next step. Those games on XBLA/ PSN are going up in size all the time.

 

[Ace Gunman]

Its absolutely an assumption that they will all have physical media drives, but its a logical one. The reason being quite simple. For most people their blu-ray player is their PS3. Lets not split hairs here, as its pretty well known that most people, even non-gamers, are going the PS3 route for their blu-ray needs simply because of the cost of a standalone blu-ray player versus a device that can do that and play games for not too much of a difference.

Now, for the purposes of this example, I will play the part of Sony. "Hello customer, we are glad you have purchased our PlayStation 4. Unfortunately our new device does not support any of the games or movies you bought a few years ago. If you want to watch those films or play those games, you have to repurchase them via our digital download service. Have a nice day!"

Its simply not feasible for the consumer. All of your games, all of your movies, expensive games and movies I might add... useless. $60 +tax per game, and on the whole in Canada around $30 - 35 +tax for a blu-ray film. I'm not repaying for the games I already own in only one generation. 25 years from now, sure, not 5.

The simple answer would be to say, well, just don't get rid of your PS3 and you will be fine. The persistent issue in that scenario is that, for a gamer, its not too difficult to imagine holding onto a console a bit longer than usual. We're a tech-savvy bunch and have access to HDMI switch boxes and whatnot to manage 6 consoles at once. The general populace of the planet does not have this luxury. Even for the gamers though, we can only be expected to hold on to old systems for so long.


Switching tracks over to internet speeds, I can't speak for anyone else, but on my old 5Mbps connection it generally took about a day, sometimes up to three, in order to download a 1.5GB movie. I no longer have that issue, but I also know that little Johnny dial-up in the backwater town 100 miles over does not have that benefit. The sad fact of the matter is that dial-up still exists in many communities, places where people like to game just like anyone else. Great speeds can be hard to come by.


As for harddrives, honestly, its deceptive. I thought my 60GB HDD would be enough for my 360. Now I find I'm constantly needing to delete things in order to keep even 1GB of space free. I don't even have many full games installed on it. Imagine a world where all we have is digital distribution, where someone has 30 full games on their system at a time. That is going to take up space.

Now I'm sure folks will say "Well that is when you delete the games to make room for more, you can redownload them later". Which brings us back to "What happens if the system screws up and forgets you bought that game that you deleted?", and additionally "So every time I want to play a game I haven't played in a while I have to download a 10GB game on my 1.5Mbps connection?"


Last but not least we come back to physical ownership. I'm sure there will be 20 backup systems in place for any given issue, but no system is foolproof. Lets throw out another hypothetical situation:

Its 2015, all consoles use digital distribution only. For some reason, your console has been banned. You might even deserve it, but just maybe you don't. Regardless of that fact, we know that from todays consoles that even if you own a banned 360 you can still pop in a game you already own and play it. With digital distribution-only, if you account is banned, your access is banned. You can't redownload the games you legitimately own under that existing account. If you want to play them, you have to re-purchase under a new account.

What I'm driving at is that with the systems of today, even if the system were to totally go haywire and erase all of my data, get banned, get locked out of the online system or even the offline menus, I know that I still own those games and can simply pick them up and move them over to a new console. With digital-only, if the console goes, all of your games go with it. It means that you never really own anything.

I have no problem with digital distribution as a bonus, as an option. In fact I think it would be a great idea if game companies rolled out their titles simultaneously online and in stores. That way those who prefer digital can get them as soon as everyone else. However, and this is a big however, there are still too many problems to ever fully eliminate physical media. The two options need to co-exist in order for consumers to have the best experience.

 

[tk_saturn]

Its absolutely an assumption that they will all have physical media drives, but its a logical one. The reason being quite simple. For most people their blu-ray player is their PS3. Lets not split hairs here, as its pretty well known that most people, even non-gamers, are going the PS3 route for their blu-ray needs simply because of the cost of a standalone blu-ray player versus a device that can do that and play games for not too much of a difference.

Now, for the purposes of this example, I will play the part of Sony. "Hello customer, we are glad you have purchased our PlayStation 4. Unfortunately our new device does not support any of the games or movies you bought a few years ago. If you want to watch those films or play those games, you have to repurchase them via our digital download service. Have a nice day!"
But this is about Microsoft, it was their statement.

Switching tracks over to internet speeds, I can't speak for anyone else, but on my old 5Mbps connection it generally took about a day, sometimes up to three, in order to download a 1.5GB movie. I no longer have that issue, but I also know that little Johnny dial-up in the backwater town 100 miles over does not have that benefit. The sad fact of the matter is that dial-up still exists in many communities, places where people like to game just like anyone else. Great speeds can be hard to come by.

While my Internet connection is 8Meg, my Usenet is connection is 5Meg. On that I can download almost 2GB in an hour. I download 720p US TV rips faster than I can watch them.

As for harddrives, honestly, its deceptive. I thought my 60GB HDD would be enough for my 360. Now I find I'm constantly needing to delete things in order to keep even 1GB of space free. I don't even have many full games installed on it. Imagine a world where all we have is digital distribution, where someone has 30 full games on their system at a time. That is going to take up space.

Get a Jtag! lol. You can use any drive you like.

There are people who have X360 HDD full of games, but no optical media. It works just fine, I'm not saying I do that personally as i'm utterly against piracy. It's just a coincidence I have a JTAG'ed console.

QUOTE

Its 2015, all consoles use digital distribution only. For some reason, your console has been banned. You might even deserve it, but just maybe you don't. Regardless of that fact, we know that from todays consoles that even if you own a banned 360 you can still pop in a game you already own and play it. With digital distribution-only, if you account is banned, your access is banned. You can't redownload the games you legitimately own under that existing account. If you want to play them, you have to re-purchase under a new account.

People get banned because they are pirating the games via backup discs. No disc drive, no bans lol. Let's say Microsoft's next console was download only, people then found a way to copy those and so Microsoft banned them. Because they were able to copy the game in the first place, it's likely they would still be able continue to so. It's a situation that already exists on JTAG'ed consoles, most JTAG owners have a HDD full of DLC.

I'm not suggesting it for all 3 consoles. But I think it would be very good if Microsoft went that route, and Sony didn't. That would give people the choice, and it would be interesting to see what would happen. If you have 3 consoles which are identical, then it's a bad thing for everyone. Differences are good, and gives you a reason to choose one of those 3 consoles.

It's possible they could have 2 consoles, one with a drive and one without. The one without could have a much larger HDD drive in place of the optical drive. All games would have to be authenicated online, those games in retail stores would come with a code which would be the equilivent of purchasing it online. They could for example allow you to copy a game from a flashdrive from a friends console, then copy it to yours and you then purchase the activation for it online. Retail shops could sell preloaded cards, ie for specific games.

Even more awesome is if they did a kiosk machine which ould be connected to live. You insert your money and a flash drive, sign in and it transfer a game of your choice to the drive and activate it. The kiosk could have the entire collection of games, and be updated automatically. I know that's not realistic though unless flash drive speeds massively increase.

Now let's say those consoles without optical drives came with 2TB+ drives, they could already preload the most popular games as demos. You can turn them into full games by purchasing online. You could fit a large number of games on a 2TB+ drive. As the years go by, those HDD sizes would also increase.

The possibilites are endless.

 

[jan777]

This sounded like something Ninty would say.

Who need Bluray? We're going straight to 3D bitches.
(

naah, ps3 already "got" 3D. but it would be nice to see a fully dedicated 3D home console.)

 

[Ace Gunman]

I'm not much of a console pirate myself, I was just using banning as an example.

But there have been unjustified bans in the past.

There are people who have X360 HDD full of games, but no optical media. It works just fine, I'm not saying I do that personally as i'm utterly against piracy. It's just a coincidence I have a JTAG'ed console.

That is true, but in order to get it to work fine you need to follow a very specific set of guidelines, some that are totally chance-based. For example, don't get banned. Make sure you have those games downloaded beforehand if you do get banned. Your harddrive can never fail in conjunction with a banning because you can't re-download and you don't have any physical copies.

The banning example aside, its about access. If for some reason you access is restricted, maybe its just a glitch in the system only your console suffers from and there is no way to update, your games become off limits. The things you paid for and supposedly own, are taken from you. With the press of a button or the glitch of a program the company behind the console can take your legitimately bought content from you.


Oh yes, and I meant to say this earlier in regards to the quote itself. Take his comment with a grain of salt. The UK bosses of both Microsoft and Sony are known for spouting complete bull that has very little basis in fact. The US and in the case of Sony, Japanese head honchos are on much tighter leashes and know what to say and what not to say. And when it comes down to it, they're the ones who matter.

No offense to the UK or Europe intended at all, but its generally proven to be true that they get served with the sloppy seconds of the technology world. When it comes to Microsoft, its North America first, and then Europe. When it comes to Japanese publishers, its even worse, as its generally Japan > North America > Europe.

The point I'm trying to make is with all that in mind, what makes any of us think the European executives have any say at all? They get all of their information and products second hand after the companies' regions of origin have dealt with it. The UK head comments are rarely indicative of the company as a whole.

 

[tk_saturn]

There are people who have X360 HDD full of games, but no optical media. It works just fine, I'm not saying I do that personally as i'm utterly against piracy. It's just a coincidence I have a JTAG'ed console.That is true, but in order to get it to work fine you need to follow a very specific set of guidelines, some that are totally chance-based.

No just a soldering iron lol.

It's not a matter of chance in getting banned, the ban is certain if you take them online. The result is people simply get an additional console for playing online.

QUOTE

Oh yes, and I meant to say this earlier in regards to the quote itself. Take his comment with a grain of salt. The UK bosses of both Microsoft and Sony are known for spouting complete bull that has very little basis in fact. The US and in the case of Sony, Japanese head honchos are on much tighter leashes and know what to say and what not to say. And when it comes down to it, they're the ones who matter.

No offense to the UK or Europe intended at all, but its generally proven to be true that they get served with the sloppy seconds of the technology world. When it comes to Microsoft, its North America first, and then Europe. When it comes to Japanese publishers, its even worse, as its generally Japan > North America > Europe.

The point I'm trying to make is with all that in mind, what makes any of us think the European executives have any say at all? They get all of their information and products second hand after the companies' regions of origin have dealt with it. The UK head comments are rarely indicative of the company as a whole.

I completely agree with that, unless of course it's Peter Molyneux. But I would really love to know why they keep making such statements, posturing I assume.

 

[dmonkey21]

Lol this is definitely just more trash talk... but what do you guys think of the digital download thing? I think MS might be right on that one. Steam has pretty much made that the preferred method for PC gaming, and its slowly catching on especially with Xbox 360 games now sold for download.

 

[naglaro00]

Not everyone has 10 MB/s download speeds



Nice way to make yourself more an asshole, MS

 

[deny_conformity]

Lets make some assumptions, right now games usually fill up at least a dual layer dvd (so ~8.5 GiB), say it takes me 2 hours to download that (to do that you'd effectively need to max out a 10 Mb connection), imagine release week for a big title, millions of customers all hitting your servers all at once (since you can no longer use the excuse of shipping discs to stagger release dates). They'd need to use a P2P system (like bittorrent) and that you reduce their requirements but slow everyone down and it really screws over those with bandwidth caps. It's doable of course but even on current levels it's impractical.

Now lets go forward to the next console, it's all digital and it's going to need to be 1080p because otherwise you won't notice much of an upgrade, all the textures will be doubled in size, things are more detailed and data requirements are doubled. 4 hours of maxing out my bandwidth to get a game? It takes me 30 minutes to walk into town to the local game store (even at my slow rate I can be playing in about an hour and a half). Additionally what about those of us who have ridiculous ISPs that 'shape' (read nobble) our bandwidth at peak times to next to nothing.

Cloud computing for games is fine, assuming we all live with low levels of lag, anyone who's playing quake (or doom) with a half second lag will see where this is going... Immersion is completely lost the moment you've died for the hundredth time because your shooting is half a second slower than your seeing.

- edited to fix a typo