Marcan Clarifies

[Vappy]

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Yes, I understood that UVL would only run with Usermode access. I wasn't making a comparison of the capabilities, just the state of release, ie. nothing until someone puts together something to actually make it useful to homebrewers.

and this isn't a simple process (if it's going to be done correctly).

I imagine it's not, or it probably would've been done already. I'd suggest a fundraiser to motivate them, (like the one for Quadforce that as of last night successfully reached its goal thanks to a number of generous individuals) but proportional to the amount of work that'd need to be done to write an SDK, a fundraiser would probably need to be for thousands rather than hundreds, and I unfortunately don't see there being quite that many generous people

 

[Foxi4]

Yes, I understood that UVL would only run with Usermode access. I wasn't making a comparison of the capabilities, just the state of release, ie. nothing until someone puts together something to actually make it useful to homebrewers.

Well, it's not exactly the same.

With UVLoader, the functions are being continuously mapped by developers behind the scenes and the loader itself will be released once at least a very basic SDK is ready. With this WiiU exploit, all they have is very basic functionality that allows them to say "yeah, it's hacked" without mapping all the registers and finding out what they do in the grand scheme of things.

Due to a very different nature of the exploit (mapping commands in an existing application without having to bother with the hardware at all versus mapping registers and creating custom functions) it's hard to compare them, I'd say that the UVLoader is much "closer to release" than a WiiU SDK.

 

[Vappy]

Well, it's not exactly the same.

With UVLoader, the functions are being continuously mapped by developers behind the scenes and the loader itself will be released once at least a very basic SDK is ready. With this WiiU exploit, all they have is very basic functionality that allows them to say "yeah, it's hacked" without mapping all the registers and finding out what they do in the grand scheme of things.

Due to a very different nature of the exploit (mapping commands in an existing application without having to bother with the hardware at all versus mapping registers and creating custom functions) it's hard to compare them, I'd say that the UVLoader is much "closer to release" than a WiiU SDK.

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification I guess the comparison wasn't the best one I could've made!

I wonder, though, if a developer outside the initial 31 and with the necessary skills offers to do the legwork, if they'd be willing to share what they have, or if they plan to keep it under wraps and just hope that one of their current trustworthy developers eventually finds the motivation.

 

[Foxi4]

I wonder, though, if a developer outside the initial 31 and with the necessary skills offers to do the legwork, if they'd be willing to share what they have, or if they plan to keep it under wraps and just hope that one of their current trustworthy developers eventually finds the motivation.

Here we hit the Dog in the Manger dilemma, to an extent. As it's mentioned in the log, the developers themselves don't feel like releasing the code themselves because it can be used for malicious purposes and they don't feel like creating an infrastructure for homebrew development (a complete SDK) just to see it used in piracy or not used at all (see: XBox 360 Homebrew Scene, if that even exists at this point).

That being said, they may be reluctant to share it with other developers precisely because they're not a part of the circle of 31 trusted developers - they may use the code in a beneficial way, but they may as well do the opposite so they'd have to be well-known developers who are known for opposing piracy - do note that Marcan says he's not going to share any interesting bits on IRC because "the WiiKeyU people might be fishing for info". There would have to be an established bond of trust between the developers in question and... well... those who are trusted already have the code.

 

[Scuba156]

You do know that the development point they stopped at as well before apps an end-user can run is at, right? They're talking about the basic libraries for homebrew (as we know it) to be able to run in the first place.

Some issues were even named specifically.

Oh I know, they were able to exploit the system and got access to it, and a open SDK and libs are still needed. There are others that can help contribute to that.

My comments had nothing to do with the progress of the exploit or them keeping any gathered information to themselves, as such I stated they are free to do what they want with the information they hold. My comment was about the state of the homebrew scene and Marcans thoughts on there being no interest by developers in creating homebrew content for closed systems such as the Wii U.

 

[Vappy]

and... well... those who are trusted already have the code.

Indeed. So it seems like the latter option being the far more likely one.

And really, seeing how much effort yellows8 and neimod are going through on 3dbrew, I can easily see how anyone might be put off committing to such a large project, especially, as you say, given that the end result could very easily go largely unused for software besides game loaders...

 

[comex]

Due to a very different nature of the exploit (mapping commands in an existing application without having to bother with the hardware at all versus mapping registers and creating custom functions) it's hard to compare them, I'd say that the UVLoader is much "closer to release" than a WiiU SDK.

For the record, the Wii U supports the cutting edge 1964 technology of dynamic linking, and uses it for the official SDK, so it would be possible to legally develop homebrew applications using the official SDK. However, people are more interested in getting Linux to run than a 'SDK' as such, which, of course, will require a lot of hardware mapping crap.

 

[Vappy]

people are more interested in getting Linux to run than a 'SDK'

Makes me think that the best thing a console manufacturer could do for the security of their hardware would be to do something similar to OtherOS, running Linux with access to the hardware that homebrewers care about but locking out any capability for loading games. As long as the coders can make their homebrew, there'll be no reason for hackers to go looking for any ways to unlock any more of the console. How long might the PS3 have gone without being jailbroken had they kept OtherOS functionality...

 

[Ziggy Zigzagoon]

< marcan> 31 trustworthy people have the info from last year. if nobody has released anything yet it's because nobody is motivated/interested enough to do anything with it.
< marcan> I think there's a collective "meh" sentiment about the WiiU. it was fun breaking it but nobody really feels like building an ecosystem out of it
< marcan> and we saw what happens when you just throw your stuff at people and tell them to run with it (see PS3), so that's not going to happen

Wait, what? Is not the PS3 homebrew community strong?

<@marcan> heck, other than random twittards, I've heard basically no noise/pestering for us to release stuff
<@marcan> I think there really isn't as much interest as there should be to make this viable/worth it

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdny9iIqtS1racybko1_250.gif
People have been more respectful of scene releasers. People have actually been enforcing respect!

<@marcan> *I should qualify that I value noise from real devs. there's plenty of noise from gbatemp, but we all know they just want warez.

http://adventuresofalostboy.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/eeyup.gif (at least to me, though I wanted to unlock my PS3 for more than just the .ps3 files)

< marcan> if we get lazy and unmotivated, they might be too incompetent to break the new ones

Wait... 'break'?

< marcan> not as awesome as us though, we did have to pull of a pretty epic <censored> attack for the wii u
< marcan> it's a bit scary how well these things work sometimes
<@marcan> [cuss] the most interesting bit so far was the compat VI
<@marcan> and we already reverse engineered that

http://64.imagebam.com/download/BtW...55/RandallHasNeverBeenSoTurnedOnInHisLife.jpg

<@marcan> Muzer: fwiw you CAN get three cores in wii mode, with restrictions, with some tricks. but good luck getting libogc ported to multicore (so there's really no point)

Haime? I did not know that Wii can get to 2 cores!

<@marcan> delroth: yeah. I mean, the controller is cute, but everything else is just bog standard
<@marcan> sure, three cores, woohoo, but we have quad-core ARMs now
<@marcan> also, the SIMD is still made of fail
<@marcan> that's still what I find the saddest about the CPU
<@shuffle2> i think it would be interetsing to know how some other hardware is working (like compat gpu/dsp,bd) but not incredibly interesting to use them, unlike the gamepad
<@marcan> shuffle2: dsp is just the same old dsp with more sram. bd is SATA/AHCI. compat gpu I still think is just a bolted-on GX
<@marcan> and the wiiu GPU is just a stupid outdated radeon
<@marcan> there's really nothing interesting

For one thing, games sell consoles. For another thing, I regret the whole 'Nintendoo pushing weakened hardware' ideology. (I mean, why do Pokémon X and Pokémon Y make pooie graphics instead of using the fabulous graphics and lighting engine from the Pokédex 3D? They could even import from Pokémon Battle Revolution!

< marcan> why buy closed platforms when open ones are cheaper and better

I already said that games sells consoles. While Lignux allows for stronger hardware, there is not that much support for Lignux compared to, say, Windows.

< marcan> m_b_v: that's the point - publishers just need to get their act together and start releasing for android and PC.

The makes of LibRetro know how difficult is a port to the Android, especially when things do not work nicely. I can not blame Google for that, though.

<@marcan> [cuss], the GC was awesome in almost every way
<@marcan> (in its day)
<@marcan> best controllers, best game media storage/performance balance, nice CPU and GPU (for its time)

To be honest, I also really like the GameCube controller best. I wish I could buy one of those adapters from GameCube to computer.

<@tueidj> ninty thought the gc GPU was so nice, they reused it for the wii

Oh, dear...

 

[mysticwaterfall]

Some people in this thread seem to think devs are altruistic angels who devote countless free hours to projects for some sort of greater good of the community. Unless a dev is getting paid to do a specific job, they are doing things because it is interesting to them, not anybody else. If they lost interest after the challenge was over, that's their right. It would be like saying somebody who hates a show should make a full Wiki guide for it just because people want them too.

Again devs do things because it interests them, nobody else. While it might be frustating, it is thier rights. Complaining about how entitled you are to other peoples hard work in there free time doesn't change anything.

 

[mkdms14]

Ok soo is he saying that console hacking is dead because it requires too much effort and does not yield enough results? Does that mean this is the end for home-brew in general?

 

[WiiUBricker]

Ok soo is he saying that console hacking is dead because it requires too much effort and does not yield enough results? Does that mean this is the end for home-brew in general?

No because they will disclose their findings eventually. At the latest when modding companies start to rip people off.

 

[Arizato]

The drama in this thread...

 

[Deleted_171835]

The drama in this thread...

And people wonder why folks on GBAtemp aren't taken seriously.

 

[the_randomizer]

You do know that the development point they stopped at as well before apps an end-user can run is at, right? They're talking about the basic libraries for homebrew (as we know it) to be able to run in the first place.

Some issues were even named specifically.

That right there is where my stupidity in my comments went for bad to worse right down to hellfire and brimstone. That is where I got confused, did that IRC log specify that explicitly that the current code they had wouldn't truly benefit most users?

The drama in this thread...

And here I thought you weren't expecting civilized discussions on the internet

 

[the_randomizer]

And people wonder why folks on GBAtemp aren't taken seriously.

I never thought they were.

 

[Arizato]

And people wonder why folks on GBAtemp aren't taken seriously.

Exactly my point as well.

 

[BrightNeko]

I read the first 3 pages, and skimmed the rest. It is mostly just homebrew and piracy argument. No one has really brought up making a console region free/accessing another eshop, or making a system easier to use. I would love to be able to import wii u games or 3DS titles and just straight play them. Not have to buy an entirely new console just to play imports. An as for making the system easier to use, what I mean by that is the wii u isn't very good at its job. I've had data stop working from monster hunter, games flat out not load anymore because I shut the system down from the controller, and many a network error just by moving the wii u a room away from the router. Might seem like silly complaints but I recall tons of fixes for these kinds of things on the PSP and Wii. Hell in the PSP's case it was the only way to finish some things in mana khemia because without adjusting the clock speed the game would for some strange reason crash in regular fights in a dungeon, something NISA just said to "deal with".

That said homebrew wise I think Ratboi is mostly right, it is just to easy to get your stuff on consoles now which is a awesome.

-edit-
Part for the above bit, game translations. This runs aside the import part, fine example is fatal frame 4 getting a full translation for the wii, with a great way of running it to. Loading the translation off an SD card for legit disc copies.

 

[Walker D]

No one has really brought up making a console region free/accessing another eshop (...)

I was thinking about that also ... but releasing something like that, wouldn't be enough of a gap for other people to use this new know-how/code to create some ways to pirate?
Maybe even a small hack window would be enough for starting a hacking/pirating spree ....what this guys may not want..

 

[Hielkenator]

We really should admire marcan's clairvoyance, it seems he knows exactly what people want, and what homebrew devs are going to come up with.


Fact is he doesn't know shit about what will happen if they would release the hack they presumably have for WiiU.
It's all speculation.
My guess is that it's just to hard for them to do it the way they did it with Wii, and that they are pissed somebody else beat them in the hacking game.
I'll never forget how they "stole "Giantpunes"exploit.....
I think that clarifies it a lot more.

Ahh, but what do I know???... just speculating