Hacking HBC to use IOS58

[cwstjdenobs]

You do all know the HBC will use a patched IOS fine. It's the hackmii installer that won't use them (EDIT: very understandably) so it won't install the HBC to use one. You can always patch IOS58 after the install if you really must.

But TBH there's no real need for a patched IOS now, and I'm sure someone will prove me right on that pretty soon.

 

[s3phir0th115]

You do all know the HBC will use a patched IOS fine. It's the hackmii installer that won't use them (EDIT: very understandably) so it won't install the HBC to use one. You can always patch IOS58 after the install if you really must.

But TBH there's no real need for a patched IOS now, and I'm sure someone will prove me right on that pretty soon.

Not without it being upside down after said patching.

I can think of several needs for a custom IOS yet.

Now, if some apps are made to use the setup the homebrew channel offers, that may change. But for now, the vast majority of programs that need system level access use a custom/patched IOS.

 

[XFlak]

the only reason people would want a patched IOS58 is to use darkcorp to play backup discs via the disc channel. And there is another unreleased method of doing this without even touching any of the IOSs (it never worked for me, but I was the only 1 who had it fail despite loading the game banner in the disc channel, and a dozen or so other testers reported it worked fine). Out of respect for the dev's anonymity, I won't be saying anything else on the matter.

@cwstjdenobs, u have a very good point re. patching IOS58 after the HBC installation... but even if u did that with IOS61/36 on older HBCs, it would still flip upside-down or fail to load apps, I've experienced that first hand.

But even assuming u are correct and patching IOS58 after installing the HBC doesn't break it, Tantric just said he's going to add some shit to his apps causing them to fail or something when loading a patched IOS58. So even if u were to patch it after installing the HBC (and somehow the HBC still operates normally) you would still have issues trying to load apps like super mario war, WiiMC, fceugx and all of Tantric's other apps (at least the future versions of them, some of which have yet to be released)

edit: FYI, a patched IOS58 is only used to play a couple uncommon backup discs from the disc channel, so if u were to install darkcorp without a patched IOS58, 99.9% of people wouldn't notice a difference (unless u wanna play "just dance" or something gay like that, lol

). And the current darkcorp can easily be modified to NOT install an IOS58 by removing one specific line from the darkcorp config.xml file

 

[cwstjdenobs]

Not without it being upside down after said patching.

That's if the HBC's ticket is fakesigned not the IOS. To stop scammers just supplying a wad. I checked after seeing that mentioned in case it had changed with the new one. Used Dop Mii to install IOS 61 with all the patches.

EDIT: @XFlak, really? I've never seen it happen just because of a patched IOS.

 

[s3phir0th115]

the only reason people would want a patched IOS58 is to use darkcorp to play backup discs via the disc channel. And there is another unreleased method of doing this without even touching any of the IOSs (it never worked for me, but I was the only 1 who had it fail despite loading the game banner in the disc channel, and a dozen or so other testers reported it worked fine). Out of respect for the dev's anonymity, I won't be saying anything else on the matter.

If they can replace everything that custom IOSes are needed for, including backups, then cool. But until there are publicly available means of doing that, there is still the need for custom IOSes.

But even assuming u are correct and patching IOS58 after installing the HBC doesn't break it, Tantric just said he's going to add some shit to his apps causing them to fail or something when loading a patched IOS58. So even if u were to patch it after installing the HBC (and somehow the HBC still operates normally) you would still have issues trying to load apps like super mario war, WiiMC, fceugx and all of Tantric's other apps (at least the future versions of them that have yet to be released)

Eh, I was hoping that sort of behavior wouldn't spread. I like Tantric's apps, but something like that would motivate me to make a custom build of those applications without the restriction.

QUOTE

edit: FYI, a patched IOS58 is only used to play a couple uncommon backup discs from the disc channel, so if u were to install darkcorp without a patched IOS58, 99.9% of people wouldn't notice a difference (unless u wanna play "just dance" or something gay like that, lol

). And the current darkcorp can easily be modified to NOT install an IOS58 by removing one specific line from the darkcorp config.xml file

Yeah, I can agree that I probably wouldn't be playing dumb games like that. Though I must say I'd probably stop using Darkcorp entirely and install clean IOSes if your autoboot mod is integrated into Neogamma's official sources like you and WiiPower were discussing. If that happened I'd have no need at all to have anything other than the standard custom IOS install. Since with priiloader and a forwarder channel I can have a backup channel that does a better job than the disc channel does, right in the spot where the disc channel would normally be.

 

[tueidj]

If I find a bug in a piece of software, I make sure it's the software's fault, and then report it to the developer.

I don't stop using the software, don't tell other people not to use the software, don't insult the software, and don't prevent any software I create from being used in conjunction with said software.

You obviously don't care about making life easier for your users, relying on someone else to fix the problem rather than doing something about it yourself.

 

[XFlak]

Not without it being upside down after said patching.

That's if the HBC's ticket is fakesigned not the IOS. To stop scammers just supplying a wad. I checked after seeing that mentioned in case it had changed with the new one. Used Dop Mii to install IOS 61 with all the patches.

EDIT: @XFlak, really? I've never seen it happen just because of a patched IOS.

Yup! I'm 95% sure that if u install HBC v1.0.6 to use a non-fakesigned IOS61, then install a fakesigned IOS61, it will flip upside-down.

And u r right about the ticket being the problem. There's more info on that, which I personally found to be useful, in the "How to install HBC to SNEEK NAND" spoiler in ChokeD's SNEEK+DI thread HERE: (http://tinyurl.com/sneek-di)

 

[s3phir0th115]

If I find a bug in a piece of software, I make sure it's the software's fault, and then report it to the developer.

I don't stop using the software, don't tell other people not to use the software, don't insult the software, and don't prevent any software I create from being used in conjunction with said software.

You obviously don't care about making life easier for your users, relying on someone else to fix the problem rather than doing something about it yourself.

I'm not a developer myself, I'm just saying that if I did create any program, that's not something I'd do.

And I don't see how doing that is making a user's life easier. Rather than report the bug upstream so the author can fix the problem and improve the software you say is so crappy, you would rather force the user to install a clean IOS and not use the patched IOS at all.

How would you like it if someone did the same thing to you? Someone finds a bug in the HBC, insults you and the rest of the team for it, insults your software, tells other people not to use your software, and takes measure they can to make sure any software they make won't work with the HBC. Last I checked, Waninkoko has yet to insult any work of anyone in Team Twiizers, and the only reason he said anything about the usb loader incident was because marcan felt the need to go out of his way to attack him about it.

Acting like this isn't mature. And if you ask me, things like the linux community for instance wouldn't have had nearly as much success if people had chosen to act like you all are acting.

 

[tueidj]

HBC isn't my software.

If someone else's work was making my program crash, damn right I would block it. And if it was dangerous and they not only refused to fix it but kept churning out more and more failware, I would take steps to make people aware of how crap it is.

 

[s3phir0th115]

HBC isn't my software.

If someone else's work was making my program crash, damn right I would block it. And if it was dangerous and they not only refused to fix it but kept churning out more and more failware, I would take steps to make people aware of how crap it is.

I thought it was partially yours at least. Your name is listed under the changes of the last update, being thanked for improvements in usb stability, so I considered it partially your work.

So, a bug report was filed and no attempt to fix it was made? If that's part of the reasoning, then that should be specified like WiiPower did when he stated his backup loader was not supported under a revision of the custom IOS in which his bug report was ignored. Software is going to have a hard time getting improved if authors don't get bug reports.

Because if everyone blocked patched software when it made a program crash, and no bug reports were filed or anything, there would be entire linux distributions blacklisted by certain software out there.

 

[XFlak]

@tueidj, I've heard a lot of people hate on DarkCorp, but until now I always assumed it was because they were against piracy, or they were purists unwilling to move away from stock ninty IOSs. But based on your posts, it sounds like there is more going on that I don't know about.

Is there something specific you think darkcorp fails at? Realizing that the sole purpose of darkcorp is backup disc loading from the disc channel without breaking anything else (excluding the hackmii installer). I am looking for a serious answer though, so plz lets both try to keep it clean and respect all the devs/apps that may come up during this discussion

 

[tueidj]

I was talking about waninkoko, since s3phir0th115 mentioned him. But if you want some random darkcorp fail what about how it makes some original games not run, or how it has broken dual-layer support in the past, or writes corrupt TMDs when running a disc for the first time. The person who makes it doesn't even know how arm assembly code works, he applies patches from other people without understanding them so raising these issues is pretty much a waste of time.

 

[s3phir0th115]

I was talking about waninkoko, since s3phir0th115 mentioned him. But if you want some random darkcorp fail what about how it makes some original games not run, or how it has broken dual-layer support in the past, or writes corrupt TMDs when running a disc for the first time. The person who makes it doesn't even know how arm assembly code works, he applies patches from other people without understanding them so raising these issues is pretty much a waste of time.

The dual layer support breaking I knew about, but not about corrupt TMD's being written or some original games not running. Is that behavior also exhibited with backup loaders through any custom IOS, or is it specific to darkcorp?


Though I'd still like to know if an attempt was made to report the bug(s) upstream.

 

[XFlak]

@tueidj,
b4 I get started, I just wanna say, I'm intending to have a healthy discussion, so despite what it may sound like, I'm not attempting to start any drama over this. Sorry if I am saying this sorta thing too frequently, but the last thing I want is to inadvertently start a flame war (especially with one of my friends caught in the middle)

I didn't know that about the original NSMB wii bug, but all programs have bugs in them that eventually get ironed out (even the combined awesomeness of team twiizers isn't infallable, as evidenced by past bugs that I won't get into cuz there's no point). This is also my arguement for broken dual-layer support... it may have been broken, but later updates fixed it.

TBH, I don't know what the outcome of writing corrupt TMDs is... so I'm hoping this isn't something serious (but if it were, I imagine I woulda heard about it b4 now... but who knows, we fly in different circles for the most part so I'm sure we hear things differently). Can you possibly explain this in layman's terms?

I wasn't planning on announcing this just yet, but just so we have a healthy reason to discuss this... I am considering adding darkcorp support to NUSAD. All it would do is download the lite installer + all the IOSs that it needs to run (effectively turning the lite installer into the full installer). It is not going to be a part of any of the custom guides that a noob would use (so users would need to specifically go out of their way to download it, and of course there would be warnings, and I would even force the darkcorp readme/warning to openup to encourage the user to read it). But I'd like to be able to provide a legal means of downloading the full darkcorp installer (since many people still use it... I figure we may as well provide the full installer legally). So basically, this conversation could convince me to forget about adding darkcorp to NUSAD... but so far, I'm not convinced...

Again, I got nothing but respect for DaMysteryMan, even if he doesn't know assembly code as u say, he has still managed to fulfill the needs of the backup disc loading community, and AFAIK the biggest problem he's had with cioscorp (at least in terms of frequency of bug reports) is the "no vulnerable IOS" error .... all things considered, not too shabby, especially for someone who doesn't know assembly code

 

[SifJar]

Like I said, I know their reasoning behind it. I just think that doing that isn't the best way to go about the matter.

If I find a bug in a piece of software, I make sure it's the software's fault, and then report it to the developer.

I don't stop using the software, don't tell other people not to use the software, don't insult the software, and don't prevent any software I create from being used in conjunction with said software.

That's all well and good for you to say, but the fact is, HBC turns upside down on a patched IOS for a reason. That reason? TT were getting loads of bug reports from people who claimed they didn't have any patched IOS. After a bit of conversation, it often turned out that the issues WERE caused by a patched IOS. This meant a lot of time wasted trying to fix bugs that didn't really exist (say what you want, HBC is designed for unpatched IOS, so if it runs without a bug on a clean IOS, the bug is irrelevant). To combat this, TT decided to make HBC flip upside down when running on a patched IOS as a simple sign that n00bs actually DID have a patched IOS, and save TT the trouble of trying to fix an non-existent bug.


QUOTE(XFlak @ Aug 13 2010, 10:02 PM) I wasn't planning on announcing this just yet, but just so we have a healthy reason to discuss this... I am considering adding darkcorp support to NUSAD. All it would do is download the lite installer + all the IOSs that it needs to run (effectively turning the lite installer into the full installer). It is not going to be a part of any of the custom guides that a noob would use (so users would need to specifically go out of their way to download it, and of course there would be warnings, and I would even force the darkcorp readme/warning to openup to encourage the user to read it). But I'd like to be able to provide a legal means of downloading the full darkcorp installer (since many people still use it... I figure we may as well provide the full installer legally). So basically, this conversation could convince me to forget about adding darkcorp to NUSAD... but so far, I'm not convinced...

I always wondered, but never bothered to investigate as I don't really care much about darkcorp...Why are there two versions? Are there extra IOS in the full version which aren't on NUS or something?

 

[s3phir0th115]

I would personally say that given recent developments, darkcorp may soon be not be needed at all.

I mean, with your autoboot mod and channel Xflak, conbined with a hack to allow disc channel movement, you can effectively have a more functional disc channel replacement, and only have one custom IOS. The only current remaning issues is the Neogamma not having the mod implemented into the official source (but that may be fixed soon) and the IOS reloading games being more seamless. But, given Waninkoko's recently added feature to block IOS reloading, that may be fixable with a Neogamma updates too.

Though, there are the side reasons too, like IOS36 needing to be patched for certain homebrew, and of course IOS base issues like games needing certain things like instrument support.

Though, until at least the Neogamma improvements are incorporated, I still say Darkcorp has its uses that aren't available otherwise yet.

Of course, if the official games having trouble and tmd issues tueidj pointed out are true, that may make darkcorp not worth it too. I'm sure the official games issue will be fixed though, since it's quite visible. I'm not really qualified to say about the tmd thing though, since I know little about what writing corrupt ones would cause.

That's all well and good for you to say, but the fact is, HBC turns upside down on a patched IOS for a reason. That reason? TT were getting loads of bug reports from people who claimed they didn't have any patched IOS. After a bit of conversation, it often turned out that the issues WERE caused by a patched IOS. This meant a lot of time wasted trying to fix bugs that didn't really exist (say what you want, HBC is designed for unpatched IOS, so if it runs without a bug on a clean IOS, the bug is irrelevant). To combat this, TT decided to make HBC flip upside down when running on a patched IOS as a simple sign that n00bs actually DID have a patched IOS, and save TT the trouble of trying to fix an non-existent bug.

I know what the reasoning is, I'm just disagreeing with the method of action taken from the reasoning.

I still maintain that it isn't good form to not report bugs upstream. Now if they reported the bugs upstream, and were ignored, then I could understand this. But I'm not getting a clear answer as to if any bug reports were filed or not.

I'm sure XFlak would understand this as a known software dev too. One of the answers to the poll question of if NUSAD worked for you or not is, "No, and I won't report what went wrong because I am a troll" And it's a good point. You're not helping software improve if you insult it, insult the author, claim it won't work, etc, if you didn't even bother reporting the bug upstream.

QUOTEI always wondered, but never bothered to investigate as I don't really care much about darkcorp...Why are there two versions? Are there extra IOS in the full version which aren't on NUS or something?

There are things like the cMIOS I think... I forget what all it added.

The primary difference I think is that the lite version is an installer that grabs the stuff it needs from NUSD, and actually builds the stuff as it installs, rather than distributing the wads pre-made.

 

[tueidj]

Why would anyone want to help improve software whose main goal they don't support?

 

[SifJar]

I know what the reasoning is, I'm just disagreeing with the method of action taken from the reasoning.

I still maintain that it isn't good form to not report bugs upstream. Now if they reported the bugs upstream, and were ignored, then I could understand this. But I'm not getting a clear answer as to if any bug reports were filed or not.

I'm sure XFlak would understand this as a known software dev too. One of the answers to the poll question of if NUSAD worked for you or not is, "No, and I won't report what went wrong because I am a troll" And it's a good point. You're not helping software improve if you insult it, insult the author, claim it won't work, etc, if you didn't even bother reporting the bug upstream.

I understand where you're coming from but...TT don't care if other software works or not tbh. Tools mainly used for warez (heck, the release thread for Darkcorp v1.1 bore the tagline "Freedom to pirate on 4.3") are not supported by TT, why should they try to help improve them? That'd be like if a thief was trying to rob your house, and made a mess, you made a complaint to them and asked to try and be tidy the next time. Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but i feel its pretty good, and its late so I'm tired

. I highly doubt they filled a bug report to the "developers" of darkcorp, because its no concern of theirs to try and make it work. You may feel this is inconsiderate etc., but thats the way it is.

 

[megazig]

I'd add that the "developers" of darkcorp don't create the cIOS patches. they just add them to IOS. this isn't really a nice infrastructure to report bugs into. you're not reporting to the people who can actually fix anything.

 

[s3phir0th115]

Why would anyone want to help improve software whose main goal they don't support?

Well, if you're going to insult someone, their work, etc. the least you should do is tell them what's wrong. It's common courtesy. And I'm sure any software developer could understand that.

I hate Apple and everything they stand for, but if I find a bug in Mac OS X that they should know about, I'll tell them about it.

Same applies for goods and services. You're not helping anyone by refusing to tell them about problems you encountered with a good or service. How is anything supposed to be improved otherwise?

Even if you don't like someone or something they make, that doesn't mean it's fine to ignore common courtesy toward them. Nintendo may have done that to TT with regards to several things because Nintendo doesn't agree with their main goal, but that doesn't give TT the right to do the same thing to other homebrew developers. Indecency is indecency, regardless of who it's towards.

I understand where you're coming from but...TT don't care if other software works or not tbh. Tools mainly used for warez (heck, the release thread for Darkcorp v1.1 bore the tagline "Freedom to pirate on 4.3") are not supported by TT, why should they try to help improve them? That'd be like if a thief was trying to rob your house, and made a mess, you made a complaint to them and asked to try and be tidy the next time. Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but i feel its pretty good, and its late so I'm tired tongue.gif. I highly doubt they filled a bug report to the "developers" of darkcorp, because its no concern of theirs to try and make it work. You may feel this is inconsiderate etc., but thats the way it is.

I'm not sure I'd say that Waninkoko's main goal is to allow warez, same thing for Hermes. And in the case of Darkcorp, the software is being derived from someone else, Waninkoko. And while I'm not entirely sure, I don't think any of the custom IOS developers have stated that their software is specifically made to allow piracy. It does add a lot of peace of mind to know that even if your original disc is damaged, you have a backup to fall back to. And in the case of usb loading, it's flat out more convenient and faster than disc loading.

As for why they should report bugs, common courtesy. Like I said, even though I hate Apple and all they stand for, they still should be told about specific problems in their software before they are insulted for code quality.

I don't think the robbery analogy is very comparable TBH, because as I've said, I don't think Waninkoko has stated that his main goal of the custom IOS is to allow piracy.

I mean if they want to be inconsiderate, that's one thing. But it doesn't reflect positively on anyone I think if they insult someone and their work, yet won't provide them with specific reasons for why they think their software is bad. I.E, bug reports

QUOTE(megazig @ Aug 13 2010, 05:55 PM)

I'd add that the "developers" of darkcorp don't create the cIOS patches. they just add them to IOS. this isn't really a nice infrastructure to report bugs into. you're not reporting to the people who can actually fix anything.

Yeah, that's true, unless it was something they did in that process that caused a problem.