Hawaii Government Introduces 4 Bills Regulating The Sale Of Games With Micro-transactions.

hawaii lootboxes.jpg

The Hawaiian government has introduced 2 house bills and 2 senate bills which aim to regulate the sale of video games containing microtransactions under the pretenses of them being manipulative and exploitative, resulting in harm to those with addictive predispositions, such as children. The first 2 bills, House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024, attempt to limit the sale of games with these mechanics to those under 21, stating that
It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards.
In the body of the bill, it compares the current micro-transaction structure to gambling, saying that they're "psychology to compel players to keep spending money in the same way that casino games are so designed." It goes on to then call them "predatory", and claim that they pose the same risks to consumers as gambling. It also mentions the somewhat controversial proposition of the American Psychological Association in classifying internet gaming disorder as a psychological condition to illustrate what they see as the dangers of this mechanism.

The last 2 bills, House Bill 2727 and Senate Bill 3025, then go on to propose that all those who utilize these mechanics in their games should be required to disclose the probability of acquiring each item a player could receive, as well as to include a prominently featured warning on/in the game which reads "Warning: contains in-game purchases and gambling-like mechanisms which may be harmful or addictive."

This is an effort spearheaded by Hawaii state Rep. Chris Lee of Oahu after the massive backlash against the mechanic of lootboxes, primarily brought about by the large controversy of EA's Star Wars: Battlefront II's lootboxe and micro-transactions. Chris criticized the current attitude of the games industry, saying "I grew up playing games my whole life. I’ve watched firsthand the evolution of the industry from one that seeks to create new things to one that’s begun to exploit people, especially children, to maximize profit." It's important to note that these bills still need to pass through both the House and Senate before they reach the governor for consideration, meaning the regulations detailed in these bills are, as of yet, not in effect.

:arrow:House Bill 2686
:arrow:House Bill 2727
:arrow:Senate Bill 3024
:arrow:Senate Bill 3025
:arrow: Source
 

Oakmontowls

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what no! it wouldnt make those games hard to find. People would just buy them digitally.
Actually the bill includes this tidbit:
"Retailer" means any person who offers video games for sale, including resale by the purchaser, through any means, including sales outlets, catalogs, or the Internet.
It would still be illegal online as well which would force online retailers like steam to enforce age restrictions on the purchase of these games (assuming a system isn't in place already)
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Actually the bill includes this tidbit:
"Retailer" means any person who offers video games for sale, including resale by the purchaser, through any means, including sales outlets, catalogs, or the Internet.
It would still be illegal online as well which would force online retailers like steam to enforce age restrictions on the purchase of these games (assuming a system isn't in place already)
Steam already has age restrictions enforced, assuming the account buying has the correct birthday put in
 

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Dang, can't scam kids out of money anymore /s
You don't get to decide what other people do with their money - you can tell by how the money is in their wallet, not yours. If they want to squander it on stupid virtual items then that's their choice to make. It's not a "scam", they get exactly what they paid for and it's none of your business. Technically speaking all of gaming is a massive waste of time and money, it's not productive whatsoever, but we're not up in arms about it because guess what, it's fun. For some people spending hundreds of dollars on FIFA points and opening packs is fun, and it's not your place to judge that. If it's not your money, it's not your problem and none of your business.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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You don't get to decide what other people do with their money - you can tell by how the money is in their wallet, not yours. If they want to squander it on stupid virtual items then that's their choice to make. It's not a "scam", they get exactly what they paid for and it's none of your business. Technically speaking all of gaming is a massive waste of time and money, it's not productive whatsoever, but we're not up in arms about it because guess what, it's fun. For some people spending hundreds of dollars on FIFA points and opening packs is fun, and it's not your place to judge that. If it's not your money, it's not your problem and none of your business.
Oh excuse me, let me rephrase that:

Dang, can't exploit kids' underdeveloped and impressionable minds that react very strongly to the dopamine releases that opening a winning loot box triggers anymore
 

Kioku

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if the games are rated AO ("Adults Only") due to gambling-like mechanics, then a lot of stores won't sell the game in the first place, so it would probably be a lot harder to find. which would also probably force publishers to drop the whole scheme or (more likely) find a different way to squeeze extra money out of people.
That's wishful thinking.
 

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Oh excuse me, let me rephrase that:

Dang, can't exploit kids' underdeveloped and impressionable minds that react very strongly to the dopamine releases that opening a winning loot box triggers anymore
Kids don't have income, they're given money by their parents. If their parents are okay with it, it's also none of your business.
 
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Foxi4

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What do you define as a "kid"? I've had a job where I make a predictable income since I was 14
That's commendable. I'm sure you worked hard. Hard enough not to have some old farts sitting around the table telling you what you can and can't spend your money on. Last I checked, you did the work, not them.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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That's commendable. I'm sure you worked hard. Hard enough not to have some old farts sitting around the table telling you what you can and can't spend your money on. Last I checked, you did the work, not them.
Hilarious, but again you're downplaying the fact semi-random loot boxes like these are DESIGNED to be addictive. Obviously the iniial rounds are your choice, but let's not pretend that teenagers aren't stupid and inherently bad at devision-making
 

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Hilarious, but again you're downplaying the fact semi-random loot boxes like these are DESIGNED to be addictive. Obviously the iniial rounds are your choice, but let's not pretend that teenagers aren't stupid and inherently bad at devision-making
You know you're at the brink of western civilisation's downfall when people are just clamoring to be less free. Kids very well might be bad at the decision-making and I'm quite happy seeing them making mistakes when they're kids and they can still learn from it than when they're adults and the stakes are much higher. You are shifting the burden of childrearing from the parents to the government, and I'm not okay with that. The government is not your dad, it's not your friend, it's a big pointing-guns-at-things machine. Your trust in their good judgement is not only misplaced, it's dangerous.
 
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Foxi4

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Oh good God if that's your position then we're done here
Except it absolutely is. Government does not exist without the capacity for coercion, it has no power if it doesn't have the tools to enforce its will. It's armed to the teeth, which is why it should use coercion only when absolutely necessary. You can believe that it's there to wrap a blanket around you, but if you cross it, it doesn't send elves to your door, it sends armed enforcers. If it wasn't armed, it wouldn't be able to protect you, and you could argue that it only exists to protect you from external threat, which makes it a pointing-guns-at-things machine.
 

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That'd be nice, but technically shovelware isn't imminently harmful to anyone and some people do enjoy those games (I guess? I'd assume???)
I suppose we then have to figure out what harms are being done.
If we start with the premise that it is causing harms then in this case 21 seems outrageously high an age, especially if we do a relative comparison to other potentially dangerous or at least seriously consequential things (driving, marriage, military type stuff, weapons, dealing with credit, various drugs) within the same legal system, some of those also being financial in nature. Never mind elsewhere in the world (I still find 21 being the legal age for booze to be mind boggling). The follow on consequences to that as far as people being able to make them, advertise them (I presume game devs/pubs don't just piss away the sorts of advertising budgets many games get just for fun or because they are feeling charitable to advertising companies) and such like also warrant some consideration -- the US quite famously having no other legal age enforcement on media and there being many hard fought cases to avoid it.

Assuming said premise is true is rather strong from where I sit though and Foxi4's position of "maybe people should be allowed to make their own fuckups" is not without merit (indeed it would be a fundamental underpinning of most legal systems that get considered free). If there is an epidemic of some form (society wide or some notable group within it) then there might stand to be an enforced thing, however that would be the sort of thing someone has to qualify.

On the matter of the rules at hand there were also discussions in previous threads on the differences between purely cosmetic, game altering equivalents* and pay to win. Should we resolve my age problems above, and also figure out the issues of parental responsibility, there may also be room for further nuance as far as having it be an opt in service or specialist version of the game, whether you can grind your way there (and the time investments required) and similar things. Straight banning of things is then often seen to be rather heavy handed, and I dare say history would also demonstrate that as well.

*be it something equivalently powerful (maybe half damage, double speed fire from the existing two points sort of thing) or a totally different way to play (health restore gun or something).

Equally you may have misread Foxi4 as one of the taxation = theft set where I very much doubt he would fall into that one. The reverse equivalent for you would be accusing you are being one of the "think of the children" set.

From a practical aspect it is unlikely to bother me as you will never catch me paying for such things, and indeed if it is dropped then less distasteful systems may return. To that end I am mostly left with the debate on whether it is a justified removal of liberties, the other part being whether this age enforcement might be a back door of some form.
 
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Yes, but at that point, it is not the parent's money and instead it is the kid's money. If it's their money, then they can do what they want with it. There is a big problem with gambling other people's money, like a parent's money from a credit card. However, if a young person gets money of their own as a gift or something, why shouldn't they be able to do what they want with it? After a few fails in their lootboxes, they would probably give up since they see their own money going away and they realize that gambling it like that would not be the wisest idea.

You've obviously never had a gambling problem, or been a kid for that matter. Depending on the age and the maturity level, money doesn't have much value yet. Addiction is a real thing and it affects everyone differently, regardless of age. I appreciate that you're naive to the fact that kids will give up if they don't get what they want, but that's definitely the minority situation. (for most adults too) All it takes is for them to get something good just one time, or even hear that their friend got something good one time. Or in the case of Pay-to-Win games, all it would take is for someone to beat them and them get frustrated or for someones character to "look cooler" than their's. Plus, it's probably not really their money. They got it from somewhere. While I agree, they can spend it on whatever they want. You'd hope they spend it on something a little more responsible.
 

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You don't get to decide what other people do with their money - you can tell by how the money is in their wallet, not yours. If they want to squander it on stupid virtual items then that's their choice to make. It's not a "scam", they get exactly what they paid for and it's none of your business. Technically speaking all of gaming is a massive waste of time and money, it's not productive whatsoever, but we're not up in arms about it because guess what, it's fun. For some people spending hundreds of dollars on FIFA points and opening packs is fun, and it's not your place to judge that. If it's not your money, it's not your problem and none of your business.
The targeting of gambling addicted people and kids aside, I would think you would be up in arms and want companies to stop ruining games with more and more moneymaking schemes and actually just simply make good games again.

Not to mention, you are acting like the government shouldn't put any restrictions and laws on anything people get their hands on, which is ridiculous.
 
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Foxi4

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The targeting of gambling addicted people and kids aside, I would think you would be up in arms and want companies to stop ruining games with more and more moneymaking schemes and actually just simply make good games again.

Not to mention, you are acting like the government shouldn't put any restrictions and laws on anything people get their hands on, which is ridiculous.
Only reasonable restrictions in instances where there are externalities involved. You can't drive drunk because you're endangering others, nobody cares about whether you live or die. As for ruining games, markets are self-regulating - if people didn't want lootboxes ,they wouldn't buy them in droves. Stop protecting people from themselves, that's not your job.
 

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