We simply do not know why things exist. Saying it was an intelligent designer is just guessing and adding another question.
Do You Believe In God?
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We do know how things exist. While yes there is more to be researched a god doesnt add another question but rather answers many. Of course someone will point out god of the gaps and, well until we fill those gaps, god can fill them with ease and logic. By the same logic an uncreated creator could exist. A being that begins and ends everything.
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[Quran 51.47] And the heaven, We built it with craftsmanship and We are still expanding
[Quran 14.48] On the day when Earth will be swapped by another Earth and so will be the heavens; and all (creatures) will resurrect before the One Dominant God.
God refers to a big crunch.
Quran 2:30 And your Lord said to the angels "I will make a successor on Earth", They said "How can You make [a successor] someone who corrupts and sheds blood while we praise and sanctify You?" He said "I know what you don't know."
God says we succeed something, obviously meaning we werent gods first creations.
(Quran 6.133) Your Lord, the Rich and Merciful, if He wishes, can discard you and succeed you with "WHATEVER" He wishes; Just like He created you from the seed of another clan.
He says we were made from a different species.
Debunk these and then we'll talk.
Having science in the Quran with no errors, which isn't actually the case, would do nothing to demonstrate that a god exists or was at all involved with anything. Claiming something proves your point doesn't necessarily make it any less of a non sequitur. You haven't explained how that would demonstrate a god's existence.
What we would call causality is a property of the universe, so it would be pointless to show you an example of something uncaused and natural, and I'm going to skip an in-depth discussion about quantum mechanics and its causal ambiguity, for example. A better question would be to ask if you could show me an example of a caused universe and/or caused causality. Until you do, you have no basis with which to make the assertion that a cause to the universe is required.
Also, if you're going to claim that everything requires a cause, then your god requires a cause as well. Any reason you can come up with to argue your god doesn't require a cause can be applied to the universe or a hypothetical natural process that caused the universe.
Happily.
You've got a lot more to go.
God has no explanatory power regarding any question it seeks to resolve. God claims are assertions that merely create another layer of questions.
It's not our job to debunk anything in the Quran. It's your job to provide any sound reason whatsoever to believe what the Quran says about God is true.
What do you mean "how things exist"? We know that matter is made of energy if that's what you mean, but I'm talking about why "existence" is even a thing. There doesn't HAVE to be a cause and adding God into it didn't answer anything, but now there's another question. How did this God come into existence and if he has "always" existed, why can't everything else have "always" existed if this God was able to do it?
Last edited by invaderyoyo,
Well it kinda is your job to debunk claims when you out right say the quran is false.
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the idea that an outside force would make more sense as then we'd have cause that has always existed. and explains entropy.
I think you need to look up the word outright, because I didn't say it's outright false. I said there are at least some scientific errors in the Quran, which I've demonstrated, and there is no reason to think what the Quran states about God is true. If you are going to argue that there is any sound reason to think a god exists, then it is your burden of proof.
It by definition doesn't make more sense if you cannot provide any reason to believe it is true. Entropy is also irrelevant to the conversation when we're talking about the formation of the closed system that is the universe.
I also recommend you take a look at my previous list of universe-beginning possibilities.
The thing is though, is its unknown. I accept that. My belief stems from miracles most easily summarised on this site:http://speed-light.info/miracles_of_quran/index.html very interesting read.
Entropy says that the universe is running out of usable energy. Going backwards from there, that's evidence of the universe having a beginning.
There is also no evidence that entropy has ever worked in reverse. Believing that would require more faith than believing in God.
At this point, we're purely speculating, since as finite creatures with finite minds, we cannot fully comprehend infinite concepts, like God and the universe.
This is where the argument of intelligent design comes into play. Some like to think that the universe happened by chance, but I find that belief absurd given how complex the world around us is, and how incredibly implausible it would be for life to be created by chance.
@mustafag32g @TheDarkGreninja If genesis is as much as god can pull off, then god is too weak to ever be considered a creator because that's not even close to omnipotence, not to mention that a) it is wrong, b) he caused it, c) he has observed it when it happens, or d) a higher being show it to him.
And where does existence it self come from? Why is there 1 from 0?
And where does existence it self come from? Why is there 1 from 0?
Well god created you and the whole universe. How can you call it being weak. Have you never considered Why you were created?
Well consider this, what if you die and YOU WERE WRONG?
Well consider this, what if you die and YOU WERE WRONG?
God is not the creator. The actual supreme creator is far more powerful and definitely do not need mortal worship for power which god is in desperate need of.
If I am wrong then I'd better start preparing to screw him when I am alive. And for the sake of balance the devil will have to die as well.
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Then you would you mind if I destroy both?
1) Sooner or later he will cause an apocalypse so he can kill then absorb every single thing on the planet, and if he could do that there is no telling what he would do next once he is closer to omnipotent. I would prefer everyone perish from existence than being a part of him.
2) Just because something is more powerful does not mean he should be worshipped, or any other deity or powerful human in that matter. Even if he caused genesis, there are still power beyond him and we can take him given enough time to prepare. But for the sake of balance, Satan will be the next one on the list.
3) The creator created the entire universe and beyond, and we are a product of its development. In other words human weren't that special.
On science and old books. Yeah I can believe a book written/cobbled together from various sources between 2000 and 1600 years ago does worse than one created (revealed?) a bit later, theoretically with access to some nice info (it being noted a lot of the old Greek philosophers came back from the Arabic speaking world after being "lost" for a while to Europe)3. Now we do have the was he actually an illiterate traveller, did he have a learned posse with him at points feeding him good stuff.
OK the universe is a giant marble a la men in black, created by a being some call a god (as opposed to any of the billion other creation stories we have seen throughout history and continue to see). It might be weak compared to beings in its universe just like I am stronger than the 6 year old on the playground also playing with marbles
As for "you were wrong thing" we did cover it before. It is called Pascal's Wager/Pascal's Gambit
The idea being covered, expanded and considered in
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager
The table form of it looks like
+--------------------+--------------------------+---------------------+
| | God exists | God does not exist |
+--------------------+--------------------------+---------------------+
| Believe in God | Infinite gain in heaven | Insignificant loss |
| Disbelieve in God | Infinite loss in hell | Insignificant gain |
+--------------------+--------------------------+---------------------+
The link covers various variations on the theme and some of the shortcomings.
OK the universe is a giant marble a la men in black, created by a being some call a god (as opposed to any of the billion other creation stories we have seen throughout history and continue to see). It might be weak compared to beings in its universe just like I am stronger than the 6 year old on the playground also playing with marbles
As for "you were wrong thing" we did cover it before. It is called Pascal's Wager/Pascal's Gambit
The idea being covered, expanded and considered in
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager
The table form of it looks like
+--------------------+--------------------------+---------------------+
| | God exists | God does not exist |
+--------------------+--------------------------+---------------------+
| Believe in God | Infinite gain in heaven | Insignificant loss |
| Disbelieve in God | Infinite loss in hell | Insignificant gain |
+--------------------+--------------------------+---------------------+
The link covers various variations on the theme and some of the shortcomings.
I went through a few of these, and they're all based on vague passages that have zero explanatory power in the absence of any real science. I also sincerely doubt that these convinced you of anything. More likely, they reinforced something you already believed. I doubt it if anyone has ever been convinced because of something like this.
You're also selectively choosing passages that you think have science in them, and you're ignoring the aforementioned ones that have incorrect science in them.
Finally, even if the Quran had specific science ahead of its time, that's not evidence for a god's existence.
As I've already stated, that's not necessarily evidence of a beginning. For all we know, it's evidence of a change in state.
If the universe did have a beginning, it's not evidence of a cause, and it's certainly not evidence of a god.
I don't think anybody's claiming that entropy works in reverse.
If you cannot comprehend something well enough to articulate any sound reason to believe it exists, and if you care if your beliefs are true, you have no business believing in that thing.
Complexity doesn't equal design, and you have no basis with which to claim implausibility let alone incredible implausibility. There are plenty of examples of increased complexity arising naturally.
Last edited by Lacius,
Maybe you should try to read the quran.. God doesn't need us he says that himself in the quran ?
We need him.. Worshipping him is a way of remembrance. You must remember god so he will remember you and have mercy upon you the day you are judged for your actions.
"And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic."
He's the One) Who has created death and life, so He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;
(He's the One) Who has created the seven heavens one above another, you can see no fault in the creations of the Most Beneficent. Then look again: "Can you see any rifts?"
Then look again and yet again, your sight will return to you in a state of humiliation and worn out.
[Noble Quran 67:1-4]
And when some hurt touches man, he cries to his Lord (Allah Alone), turning to Him in repentance, but when He bestows a favor upon him from Himself, he forgets that for which he cried for before, and he sets up rivals to Allah, in order to mislead others from His Path. Say: "Take pleasure in your disbelief for a while: surely, you are (one) of the dwellers of the Fire!" [
We forget, as we were created to forget. And this is a part of our test. Will we only use a selective memory and overlook what we owe to our Creator and Sustainer? Or will we be appreciative even when we are suffering some hardship or setback in this life? As for mankind, whenever his Lord tests him giving him honor and gifts, he says (bragging): "My Lord honors me." But whenever He tests him by withholding his livelihood, he says: "My Lord has disgraced me!" [Noble Quran 89:15-16] Then Allah makes clear to us the real reasoning behind all that is taking place: Nay! But (it is because) you do not treat orphans with kindness and generosity. And you do not encourage feeding of the poor! And you devour inheritance with greed, And you love wealth with abounding love! [Noble Quran 89:17-20]
Source:
http://www.godallah.com/why_create.php
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People say quran is written by man and is not the words of god.
Quran provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. God says in the holy quran:
"Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?".
"If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it."
[Noble Quran 2:23]
And Allah challenges us with:
Bring ten chapters like it.
[Noble Quran 11:13]
And finally:
Bring one chapter like it.
[Noble Quran 10:38].
Also, prophet Mohammed doesn't know how to write, so there's no way he would've written the Holy Quran.[emoji14]Maybe you should try to read the quran.. God doesn't need us he says that himself in the quran ?
We need him.. Worshipping him is a way of remembrance. You must remember god so he will remember you and have mercy upon you the day you are judged for your actions.
"And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic."
He's the One) Who has created death and life, so He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;
(He's the One) Who has created the seven heavens one above another, you can see no fault in the creations of the Most Beneficent. Then look again: "Can you see any rifts?"
Then look again and yet again, your sight will return to you in a state of humiliation and worn out.
[Noble Quran 67:1-4]
And when some hurt touches man, he cries to his Lord (Allah Alone), turning to Him in repentance, but when He bestows a favor upon him from Himself, he forgets that for which he cried for before, and he sets up rivals to Allah, in order to mislead others from His Path. Say: "Take pleasure in your disbelief for a while: surely, you are (one) of the dwellers of the Fire!" [
We forget, as we were created to forget. And this is a part of our test. Will we only use a selective memory and overlook what we owe to our Creator and Sustainer? Or will we be appreciative even when we are suffering some hardship or setback in this life? As for mankind, whenever his Lord tests him giving him honor and gifts, he says (bragging): "My Lord honors me." But whenever He tests him by withholding his livelihood, he says: "My Lord has disgraced me!" [Noble Quran 89:15-16] Then Allah makes clear to us the real reasoning behind all that is taking place: Nay! But (it is because) you do not treat orphans with kindness and generosity. And you do not encourage feeding of the poor! And you devour inheritance with greed, And you love wealth with abounding love! [Noble Quran 89:17-20]
Source:
http://www.godallah.com/why_create.php
--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
People say quran is written by man and is not the words of god.
Quran provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. God says in the holy quran:
"Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?".
"If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it."
[Noble Quran 2:23]
And Allah challenges us with:
Bring ten chapters like it.
[Noble Quran 11:13]
And finally:
Bring one chapter like it.
[Noble Quran 10:38].
So since it's from man then it is believable?Maybe you should try to read the quran.. God doesn't need us he says that himself in the quran ?
We need him.. Worshipping him is a way of remembrance. You must remember god so he will remember you and have mercy upon you the day you are judged for your actions.
"And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic."
He's the One) Who has created death and life, so He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;
(He's the One) Who has created the seven heavens one above another, you can see no fault in the creations of the Most Beneficent. Then look again: "Can you see any rifts?"
Then look again and yet again, your sight will return to you in a state of humiliation and worn out.
[Noble Quran 67:1-4]
And when some hurt touches man, he cries to his Lord (Allah Alone), turning to Him in repentance, but when He bestows a favor upon him from Himself, he forgets that for which he cried for before, and he sets up rivals to Allah, in order to mislead others from His Path. Say: "Take pleasure in your disbelief for a while: surely, you are (one) of the dwellers of the Fire!" [
We forget, as we were created to forget. And this is a part of our test. Will we only use a selective memory and overlook what we owe to our Creator and Sustainer? Or will we be appreciative even when we are suffering some hardship or setback in this life? As for mankind, whenever his Lord tests him giving him honor and gifts, he says (bragging): "My Lord honors me." But whenever He tests him by withholding his livelihood, he says: "My Lord has disgraced me!" [Noble Quran 89:15-16] Then Allah makes clear to us the real reasoning behind all that is taking place: Nay! But (it is because) you do not treat orphans with kindness and generosity. And you do not encourage feeding of the poor! And you devour inheritance with greed, And you love wealth with abounding love! [Noble Quran 89:17-20]
Source:
http://www.godallah.com/why_create.php
--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
People say quran is written by man and is not the words of god.
Quran provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. God says in the holy quran:
"Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?".
"If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it."
[Noble Quran 2:23]
And Allah challenges us with:
Bring ten chapters like it.
[Noble Quran 11:13]
And finally:
Bring one chapter like it.
[Noble Quran 10:38].
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