Do You Believe In God?

[Lacius]

how would it be illusional? if all you are is a consciousness then only that has to be moved to a new eternal world which isnt hard for an infinitely powerful god.

Heaven has to be an illusion. If a Christian woman goes to Heaven, but her atheist son goes to Hell, then the woman is going to emotionally suffer, and it's not going to be a paradise for her. Since Heaven is typically described as a place without suffering, then that leaves three options:

1. Heaven isn't real (the mostly likely option and the simplest answer).

2. The woman thinks her son is there when he isn't, which would make it an illusion.

3. The woman is somehow altered to no longer care that her son is burning in Hell, which means she's a completely different person, and it's no longer the aforementioned woman who is in Heaven.

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

Heaven has to be an illusion. If a Christian woman goes to Heaven, but her atheist son goes to Hell, then the woman is going to emotionally suffer, and it's not going to be a paradise for her. Since Heaven is typically described as a place without suffering, then that leaves three options:

1. Heaven isn't real (the mostly likely option and the simplest answer).

2. The woman thinks her son is there when he isn't, which would make it an illusion.

3. The woman is somehow altered to no longer care that her son is burning in Hell, which means she's a completely different person, and it's no longer the aforementioned woman who is in Heaven.

edit: the child is the illusion not heaven.
In islam you are an entirely different person and only have your memories, god gives you what you want and if you want your child to be there with you islam allows that but basically a copy of said child, however, since heaven is without suffering you'd be having too much pleasure to really care. The belief is that you reach a state beyond being human.

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This argument has moved away from god to more of a religious basis which has no real place here since a lot of us arent Christian.

 

[AboodXD]

Yes I believe in God, and yes I believe in afterlife (heaven and hell).
Why? Because I'm Muslim.

Also, this thread should be closed. We don't want battles about religions here on GBATemp.

@Cyan ?

 

[Lacius]

edit: the child is the illusion not heaven.
In islam you are an entirely different person and only have your memories, god gives you what you want and if you want your child to be there with you islam allows that but basically a copy of said child, however, since heaven is without suffering you'd be having too much pleasure to really care. The belief is that you reach a state beyond being human.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

This argument has moved away from god to more of a religious basis which has no real place here since a lot of us arent Christian.

If the child is an illusion, then Heaven is an illusion. If the mother is altered to no longer care about the well being of her child, then it's not the mother going to Heaven.

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

If the child is an illusion, then Heaven is an illusion. If the mother is altered to no longer care about the well being of her child, then it's not the mother going to Heaven.

Its not that shes stopped caring. It's that she's been enveloped with so much pleasure she's stopped caring. I should add that based on the idea of god being merciful in the quran it states that he will allow those in hell to come to heaven if a family member wants them to. But only a few.

 

[Futurdreamz]

Pleasure? There's no oral in heaven.

 

[Lacius]

Its not that shes stopped caring. It's that she's been enveloped with so much pleasure she's stopped caring. I should add that based on the idea of god being merciful in the quran it states that he will allow those in hell to come to heaven if a family member wants them to. But only a few.

I bolded the contradiction in your post.

So either God's altering the mother so she is no longer the same person, meaning she's not the one going to Heaven, or God is pumping her with so many drugs that she's in such an orgasmic haze that the thought of her child never even crosses her mind; otherwise, the thought of her child would make her sad.

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

I bolded the contradiction in your post.

So either God's altering the mother so she is no longer the same person, meaning she's not the one going to Heaven, or God is pumping her with so many drugs that she's in such an orgasmic haze that the thought of her child never even crosses her mind; otherwise, the thought of her child would make her sad.

I'm just gonna guess you didnt read the end of my comment? ok what evs. I should say that she still cares just that shes having so much fun that it hasnt really crossed her mind. Since in Islam, all monotheists go to heaven (as long as they do good deeds.) Theres also such thing as reasoning, god should be capable of reason, no?

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Pleasure? There's no oral in heaven.

Pleasure can be anything...

 

[FAST6191]

Also, this thread should be closed. We don't want battles about religions here on GBATemp.

We are at 70 odd pages or the better part of 1400 replies and thus far it seems to be doing OK, don't think we have even had any "cool your jets" temporary locks either. Why close it?

 

[mustafag32g]

There is no point in deniying god.

Just because we don't see a god doesn't mean he is not there. We don't even know what is beyond the universe.

You think all this came by itself? Look at how complex we are as an organism.

Mankind is arrogant, and thinks he has conquered the world yet he gets sick by a virus/ bacteria not bigger than a sandcorn.

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Think about this. What if you die and discover there is something beyond our life here ?

What if you are wrong ? And you discover there is a god? Too late i guess...

 

[AboodXD]

There is no point in deniying god.

Just because we don't see a god doesn't mean he is not there. We don't even know what is beyond the universe.

You think all this came by itself? Look at how complex we are as an organism.

Mankind is arrogant, and thinks he has conquered the world yet he gets sick by a virus/ bacteria not bigger than a sandcorn.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Think about this. What if you die and discover there is something beyond our life here ?

What if you are wrong ? And you discover there is a god? Too late i guess...

Best post I've read on GBATemp this week.

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

There is no point in deniying god.

Just because we don't see a god doesn't mean he is not there. We don't even know what is beyond the universe.

You think all this came by itself? Look at how complex we are as an organism.

Mankind is arrogant, and thinks he has conquered the world yet he gets sick by a virus/ bacteria not bigger than a sandcorn.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Think about this. What if you die and discover there is something beyond our life here ?

What if you are wrong ? And you discover there is a god? Too late i guess...

Couldnt have said it better myself.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

We are at 70 odd pages or the better part of 1400 replies and thus far it seems to be doing OK, don't think we have even had any "cool your jets" temporary locks either. Why close it?

It could literally become a flame war i guess.

 

[FAST6191]

But it hasn't, and has spawned some interesting discussions.

mustafag32g what you describe is a concept called Pascal's wager.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager covers some of the failures of it. Or if you prefer the Abrahamic god (the one of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) says none but me, and another says none but me, and for fun I am going to say there are infinite gods and some fraction of that infinite number also say none but me, others are OK with picking and choosing. What do I do now?

"Mankind is arrogant, and thinks he has conquered the world yet he gets sick by a virus/ bacteria not bigger than a sandcorn."
That is a rather large assumption for a lot of people you are making there. The conquering is going well but there is more to go.

"You think all this came by itself? Look at how complex we are as an organism."
What is your point? Why could it not have evolved? Life has been around for a very long time after all.

"Just because we don't see a god doesn't mean he is not there. We don't even know what is beyond the universe."
Maybe so, why then would I put any trust in notions developed (maybe revealed) hundreds or thousands of years ago, ones that have a lot of inconsistencies within themselves and the universe at large, ones used and twisted in some cases unrecognisably by groups aspiring to power for just as long and longer still.

 

[Futurdreamz]

There is no point in deniying god.

Just because we don't see a god doesn't mean he is not there. We don't even know what is beyond the universe.

You think all this came by itself? Look at how complex we are as an organism.

Mankind is arrogant, and thinks he has conquered the world yet he gets sick by a virus/ bacteria not bigger than a sandcorn.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Think about this. What if you die and discover there is something beyond our life here ?

What if you are wrong ? And you discover there is a god? Too late i guess...

Personally I'm not denying the existence of god, but I doubt the accuracy of the bible.

What I do doubt is the interpretation of heaven and hell as eternal reward and punishment. You realize how long is eternity is? What crime justifies a punishment that is enacted out for all eternity, with no escape through death? Hell, even Hitler can probably get all the hell he deserves in a couple galactic years; yet you're punishing everyone equally? You're going to make someone who juust didn't make it to heaven live in eternal torture?

And where do you draw the line? Most reference the bible, but it's horrendously out of date - and from a time where basic science such as hygiene, medication, and transportation was nonexsistant. So much seems to be made up as we go along. How do we know if we are following the right path? We aren't getting any divine feedback. Is it right to punish someone who would've shaped up if someone just told them to cut it out? Or should we punish those who wouldn't have made the cut if it wasn't for someone telling them to behave? Can a reformed criminal go to heaven? Would a devout churchgoer go to hell if they perfomed a murder-suicide on their last day? If you blow up a building of infidels in the name of god do you get in? Does the Westboro Baptist Church get a free pass? Would a model citizen and devout churchgoer who's gay be sent to hell anyways? Do all those African kids who don't know god go to hell? If someone teaches them about god but doesn't save them, does that person get punished for condemning the kids to hell?

Honestly I think heaven and hell was invented for this discussion:
"Son, if you're bad I'll smack you and if you're good you get an extra fig for supper"
"But dad, why should I be good when you're old and dead?"
"Um, well, because after you die god will smack you for all eternity if you're bad; and give you unlimited figs if you're good"
"Yay!"
"No oral up there though."
"Awww..."



There's just too many contradictions, so I choose to not have it define who I am. I am perfectly capable of being a decent person without the threat of eternal punishment, and I'll teach my kids the same. I define myself as the person who lives, and whatever happens afterwards with whatever remembers being me is irrelevant. If god chooses to punish me for what I am, then he is a cruel asshole who does not know what it is to be human.

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

But it hasn't, and has spawned some interesting discussions.

mustafag32g what you describe is a concept called Pascal's wager.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager covers some of the failures of it. Or if you prefer the Abrahamic god (the one of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) says none but me, and another says none but me, and for fun I am going to say there are infinite gods and some fraction of that infinite number also say none but me, others are OK with picking and choosing. What do I do now?

"Mankind is arrogant, and thinks he has conquered the world yet he gets sick by a virus/ bacteria not bigger than a sandcorn."
That is a rather large assumption for a lot of people you are making there. The conquering is going well but there is more to go.

"You think all this came by itself? Look at how complex we are as an organism."
What is your point? Why could it not have evolved? Life has been around for a very long time after all.

"Just because we don't see a god doesn't mean he is not there. We don't even know what is beyond the universe."
Maybe so, why then would I put any trust in notions developed (maybe revealed) hundreds or thousands of years ago, ones that have a lot of inconsistencies within themselves and the universe at large, ones used and twisted in some cases unrecognisably by groups aspiring to power for just as long and longer still.

indeed. However i have yet to see an inconsistency in the quran (usually misinterpreted)

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Personally I'm not denying the existence of god, but I doubt the accuracy of the bible.

What I do doubt is the interpretation of heaven and hell as eternal reward and punishment. You realize how long is eternity is? What crime justifies a punishment that is enacted out for all eternity, with no escape through death? Hell, even Hitler can probably get all the hell he deserves in a couple galactic years; yet you're punishing everyone equally? You're going to make someone who juust didn't make it to heaven live in eternal torture?

And where do you draw the line? Most reference the bible, but it's horrendously out of date - and from a time where basic science such as hygiene, medication, and transportation was nonexsistant. So much seems to be made up as we go along. How do we know if we are following the right path? We aren't getting any divine feedback. Is it right to punish someone who would've shaped up if someone just told them to cut it out? Or should we punish those who wouldn't have made the cut if it wasn't for someone telling them to behave? Can a reformed criminal go to heaven? Would a devout churchgoer go to hell if they perfomed a murder-suicide on their last day? If you blow up a building of infidels in the name of god do you get in? Does the Westboro Baptist Church get a free pass? Would a model citizen and devout churchgoer who's gay be sent to hell anyways? Do all those African kids who don't know god go to hell? If someone teaches them about god but doesn't save them, does that person get punished for condemning the kids to hell?

Honestly I think heaven and hell was invented for this discussion:
"Son, if you're bad I'll smack you and if you're good you get an extra fig for supper"
"But dad, why should I be good when you're old and dead?"
"Um, well, because after you die god will smack you for all eternity if you're bad; and give you unlimited figs if you're good"
"Yay!"
"No oral up there though."
"Awww..."



There's just too many contradictions, so I choose to not have it define who I am. I am perfectly capable of being a decent person without the threat of eternal punishment, and I'll teach my kids the same. I define myself as the person who lives, and whatever happens afterwards with whatever remembers being me is irrelevant. If god chooses to punish me for what I am, then he is a cruel asshole who does not know what it is to be human.

yeah... lets just call the creator a dumbass. The definition of humanity is subjective. I understand the bible is inconsistent with science but you cant put all religion in the same boat (let there be light is the biggest inconsistency as the universe was opaque like smoke, something the quran says as to how the world was born.)

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Do not the disbelievers realise that the heavens and earth were a solid mass, then We split them asunder, and We made from water every living thing? … He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon each gliding freely in its orbit. 21:31-34

For those who might say the quran didnt predict shit, quite clearly says all life began in water. If you want to disagree show me one scietific issue that isnt pulled frim wikislam or some other biased site (just look at some quotes in the quran)

 

[Yil]

Nature get rid of failures very quickly, intelligent design not So efficient.

how would it be illusional? if all you are is a consciousness then only that has to be moved to a new eternal world which isnt hard for an infinitely powerful god.

Cause that's god's world where He Can milk infinite amount of belief out of you once He Force you to be part of him. Think about undertale flowey, but everyone on the planet. And god has been trying to do this for thousands of years, while constantly messing with us.

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

Nature get rid of failures very quickly, intelligent design not So efficient.

Cause that's god's world where He Can milk infinite amount of belief out of you once He Force you to be part of him. Think about undertale flowey, but everyone on the planet. And god has been trying to do this for thousands of years, while constantly messing with us.

How can intelligent design not efficient when it was the intelligent design that made nature the way it is? He doesnt though Islam is all about freedom of complusion.

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What have you got to lose?

 

[Yil]

How can intelligent design not efficient when it was the intelligent design that made nature the way it is? He doesnt though Islam is all about freedom of complusion.

What have you got to lose?

If you study a bit of natural selection then you know how failures often dies within a single generation so nothing bad came out of it. Intelligent design cannot do that very efficiently.

I just don't want to have some random deity use our souls to mess with whoever he doesn't like, especially he has caused us so much trouble already, disease, war, etc over several thousand years. (Which is pretty simple for a deity) Afterall he is not the creator of anything, just some deity.

 

[FAST6191]

indeed. However i have yet to see an inconsistency in the quran (usually misinterpreted)

I don't know Quranic Arabic and, despite the whole tajwid thing, history is not on the side of those that assume languages are static and do not change with time or perhaps take on different interpretations or psychological implications. I could do it in English but apparently that is not the done thing, and having seen what can happen in translation in all aspects then that is not an unreasonable position to hold as an hard line for a final call. Speaking of different interpretations there are quite a few of them for Islam and with it the Quran, it might be others left the true path and it was Sufism all along but that is always a fun debate to have.

This guy seems to know it though, or at least he does things in English and Arabic, so I will go with linking him up for now
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9JU55HpvRvCSb1TO2w_eDA/videos








Infallible source? Absolutely not, though I would hold nothing is. Is he perhaps a bit quick to dismiss things in other videos? Having not grown up in or observed intensely I am not inclined to say but again perhaps. None of that however makes me inclined to not at least consider what is put forth there.

 

[mustafag32g]

If you study a bit of natural selection then you know how failures often dies within a single generation so nothing bad came out of it. Intelligent design cannot do that very efficiently.

I just don't want to have some random deity use our souls to mess with whoever he doesn't like, especially he has caused us so much trouble already, disease, war, etc over several thousand years. (Which is pretty simple for a deity) Afterall he is not the creator of anything, just some deity.

Well Who put the system at work? You think natural selection began by itself. Dont be a fool. Nothing Comes by itself