Covid-19 vaccine

[Lacius]

Once he (BitMasterPlus) graduates the 4th grade and climbs out of the "I" generation he may then see the light. Until then pray he doesn't have children.

Regarding @BitMasterPlus and others, it is important to remember that COVID-denial and vaccine hesitancy come from a place of fear. To acknowledge the very real threat of COVID-19 to oneself and others, as well as the very real efficacy and importance of the vaccines, comes from a place of bravery.

Bravery means overcoming one's fears, not pretending that the things that make you afraid don't exist.

Everyday, people are still overcoming their fears and choosing to get vaccinated.

 

[Foxi4]

A couple of comments, since the discussion is getting heated:

• The federal government does not regulate vaccine mandates, it falls beyond its jurisdiction and might be unconstitutional since the federal government cannot force a citizen to undergo any medical procedure against their will, even if it saves lives.
• The state government *can* mandate vaccinations if doing so is a prerequisite for the common good, this has been settled in Jacobson v. Massachusetts in the Supreme Court. Most public health policies are enacted and enforced by the state - if the state mandates it, you *have* to comply under threat of a fine. If you don't like your state mandate, you have to relocate.
• Taking the vaccine is highly recommended. The efficacy is exceedingly high, side effects are few and far between, and it protects not just yourself, but also those around you.
• With that being said, vaccine hesitancy is understandable and refusing to take it has no bearing on morality as far as I'm concerned - you are not responsible for the health and well-being of third parties, only your own. Everybody has the option to vaccinate themselves in order to immunise themselves against the virus, whether they did or not is not up to you.
• Not vaccinating yourself does introduce a mutation vector, which is regrettable, but that's just nature doing its thing. Ideally we'd have a vaccine authorised after extensive testing, however the situation is unprecedented and it does require unprecedented measures. The sooner gen pop can reach herd immunity the quicker we can get back to business as usual.

Tl;dr, no pressure, but it's the smart thing to do. The sample size of vaccinated people is larger than any clinical trial at this point - it's safe. Hesitation is understandable, but you have to weigh the pros and cons here, and go through basic risk assessment. The benefits outweigh the cons from where I'm sitting. I hope we can now move on past the moralising and the arguing.

 

[KingVamp]

Still trying to debate with myself on rather simply not taking the vaccine is immoral or just neutral. That said, I completely believe taking absolutely no safely precautions against this virus and worse, speading misinformation on top of that is immoral.

 

[D34DL1N3R]

I'm not worried. I won't catch it. And if I do, I'll get over it and build immunity.


Actually, according to free speech, you do, otherwise you and a bunch of others don't get free passes either. And "passing on covid" or other diseases isn't violating anyone's rights unless you knowingly have the disease and knowingly infect people with malicious intent, then that's a different story, but unknowingly passing it if you didn't know you had it isn't.


Bitch I can take an army of 1,000,000 if I wanted to. But seriously, we haven't gotten to that point yet over a dumb virus. This ain't China, and if the gov were to do that here, it'd be a civil war first.

And from what I've seen of your posts, you'd be the first bitch to cry because of how much of a punk you were, that I know, you "poor, entitled, spoiled, rotten, little self centered brat" asshole.


Your governor doesn't speak for everyone. My lifestyle, my choice. Don't like it? Tough shit.


Yes it is actually. Am I saying people ho take the vaccine are stupid and orally wrong? No, because I don't care, it's a choice either way. You and others have a bug up their asses for when people don't take the vaccine. You say you don't mind, but on the inside you hate that you can't make people do it because it's "morally imperative" to do so when it's not. Bottom line, you can't control people, either stop being bitter or continue to be a toxic and unreasonable person.

This entire thing just more firmly solidifies every, single, thing people are saying about you. You are constantly full of complete shit and are 100% clueless as to what the fuck is even going on. You don't even understand the most very simplistic basics of the difference between actual human rights and what you feel you are entitled to. And that entire "Bitch I can take an army of 1,000,000 if I wanted to" line is probably one of THE most pathetic and completely laughable things you've ever said. You go on with your bad self, but we all know the reality of your situation:

 

[Lacius]

Still trying to debate with myself on rather simply not taking the vaccine is immoral or just neutral. That said, I completely believe taking absolutely no safely precautions against this virus and worse, speading misinformation on top of that is immoral.

There is no moral imperative to help others in imminent danger at significant risk to oneself (it is virtuous, however). There is a moral imperative to help others in imminent danger when there isn't significant risk to oneself. Getting vaccinated falls under the latter.

 

[ghjfdtg]

You are more likely to die in a traffic accident than to die from one of the vaccines. Even AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson. You are doing both yourself and others a favor by taking a vaccine. I don't think anyone is legally responsible for deaths if he/she doesn't take a vaccine but morally probably.

 

[Dakitten]

I'm just gonna go ahead and dismantle all of this.

1)"Current death toll from Covid complications is 626,172"

- https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm

This shows 94.9% of Covid hospitalizations had at least 1 pre-existing condition and 99.1% of the patients who died had at least one pre-existing condition. In more detail on the deaths-- 2.6% had one pre-existing condition, 32.3% had two to five preexisting conditions, 39.1% who had six to ten, and 25.1% who have more than ten preexisting conditions. Straight from the CDC.

- Your pre-emptive argument appears to be:
"-- 626,172 (reported, which if you think the death numbers from vaccinations might not be solid, oh boy is this one likely lowballed..."
I disagree. I believe these numbers are grossly inflated not just because of the CDC's own statistics above, but also because of the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) test false positive rate being extremely high (and indeed its extremely questionable use for Covid and lack of transparency on cycles used when used). We can get into that in further detail; however, I would suggest you look into the creator of the PCR test Mr. Kary Mullis and his perspective on it (it's quite shocking).

"the vaccine kills 0.008% less than the disease"
You completely ignored the fact that only 0.3-1% of incidents get reported to VAERS. Take out a calculator and do the math using your own findings on VAERS. Data extrapolation holds weight even if it cannot be exact. Also, see above. That claim is highly debatable considering the amount of pre-existing conditions in Covid deaths & hospitalizations. Furthermore, of less importance, my country's Public Health team has admitted to counting any death as a Covid death if that individual had Covid at any point and recovered-- let's not get into how governments can't be trusted though, too much to say on that.

2)" --and has the side benefit of helping to stop it from spreading and further mutating"

- There is literally ZERO proof of this claim. If you could enlighten me with documentation on how this vaccine will prevent spread and mutation, please. Not a mouthpiece saying it, some empirical data or scientific documentation, because the empirical data is showing that Covid is still spreading and mutating (which I question, but that's the official data).

3)" Apologies, but my antisemitism alarm is ringing and I would love to hear some elaboration to set it at ease."

- Where in my post did I make any antisemetic remarks? I would rather not go down to your level on this but you are pathetic for raising such accusation for literally no reason? Wow.

4)"--since vaccines aren't actually very profitable"

- Bill Gates is quoted on CNBC as saying "over a 20:1 return" on a $10 billion investment. $200 billion+ is unprofitable?
- Pfizer is reported to have generated $3.5 billion in the first 3 months of 2021.
- Moderna is reported to have generated $1.7 billion in the first 3 months of 2021 (best quarter on record).

I could get into the nitty gritty on some of these companies, including the fact that Pfizer paid the largest criminal fine ever given in the U.S. for health care fraud settlement over one of their drugs. But let's not bother with that.

In summary, things are extremely fishy and people SHOULD question this vaccine. Cheers.

Y'know, funny enough, I was actually trying to pay you some respect and tackle everything you brought up, but you took some of my comments out of context (the antisemitism suspicion was because of your mention of interbank), and now you're dancing about wildly with your reply... but you did numbers for yours, so I'll hit yours by number too~

1)" I yield your PCR test information sounds neat. Would love it if you sourced that instead of a CDC document that, in summary, says if you've complications (some that are fairly common) you're more likely to get killed or seriously harmed by Covid. Sadly, Kary Mullis has been dead since before the pandemic even hit, and his comments regarding his nobel prize winning work are in regards to his underlying method that lead to the present day tests being unable to detect how infectious an individual might be, not if they have actually contracted the illness.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...cant-be-used-in-virus-detection-idUSKBN24420X

Next, I actually addressed the reporting statistics, because you seem to be sidestepping something a bit important. Reporting injuries is VASTLY different than reporting... well... death. I would love you to cite the report you mentioned regarding this, but in the absence of your report I'm lead to suspect you're referring to the health insurance company study below. If this is the case... well, it was a report done by an insurance company, which may have a bias, on top of it being a sampling of unreported events, and again, not deaths. Kinda harder to keep those unreported.

https://rickjaffeesq.com/2021/02/19...the-underreporting-of-vaccine-adverse-events/

Lastly... no, I'm challenging you to "go there" with government trust. I'm all about disdain for the establishment, but motivations and means are important to understand and discuss. More on that later.

2)" Ask and ye shall receive, although proving a negative is a task I wager you might not be willing to work with. I can state that because I have a big gun, there are no space aliens raiding my fridge, but you can't outright prove that I'm incorrect there... unless I suppose if you catch a space alien in fact raiding my fridge. The results of breakthroughs are pretty encouraging, though.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/how-they-work.html

3)" I understand your touchiness here, but do relax. I haven't called you a nazi, I'm just stating that when right-aligned individuals bring up international banking, antisemitism often rears its ugly head. I'm inviting you to elaborate on your "lets not get started" bit, because I'd rather like you to elaborate.

4)" Vaccines in general aren't profitable, Covid Vaccination obviously is a whole new bag of crazy due to the private nature which manages the rights. No lie, it is a disgusting thing, and capitalism is pretty easy to fault as a result. Still doesn't change the fact that there is, contrary to your statement, a place you can go to hold the companies liable for damages for vaccination injuries.

In conclusion, I still disagree with everything you said, but you get full marks for trying way harder and with more substance than your peers thus far! Please, do go on, this is what I'm here for! Legit love.

 

[Rustygx]

1. If I take it can I still get Covid? Yes, but the odds of contracting COVID-19 are a lot less if you're fully vaccinated, you're a lot less likely to spread the disease even if you do catch it, and you are a lot less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death if you catch it.
2. If I take it can I still spread Covid? Yes, but the odds of contracting COVID-19 (and then spreading it) are a lot less if you're fully vaccinated, and you're a lot less likely to spread the disease even if you do catch it

There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.

 

[djpannda]

There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.

lol the fact you use "MSM" make your argument non-exsiting as im pretty sure your doing "your own Research"

 

[Rustygx]

Y'know, funny enough, I was actually trying to pay you some respect and tackle everything you brought up, but you took some of my comments out of context (the antisemitism suspicion was because of your mention of interbank), and now you're dancing about wildly with your reply... but you did numbers for yours, so I'll hit yours by number too~

1)" I yield your PCR test information sounds neat. Would love it if you sourced that instead of a CDC document that, in summary, says if you've complications (some that are fairly common) you're more likely to get killed or seriously harmed by Covid. Sadly, Kary Mullis has been dead since before the pandemic even hit, and his comments regarding his nobel prize winning work are in regards to his underlying method that lead to the present day tests being unable to detect how infectious an individual might be, not if they have actually contracted the illness.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...cant-be-used-in-virus-detection-idUSKBN24420X

Next, I actually addressed the reporting statistics, because you seem to be sidestepping something a bit important. Reporting injuries is VASTLY different than reporting... well... death. I would love you to cite the report you mentioned regarding this, but in the absence of your report I'm lead to suspect you're referring to the health insurance company study below. If this is the case... well, it was a report done by an insurance company, which may have a bias, on top of it being a sampling of unreported events, and again, not deaths. Kinda harder to keep those unreported.

https://rickjaffeesq.com/2021/02/19...the-underreporting-of-vaccine-adverse-events/

Lastly... no, I'm challenging you to "go there" with government trust. I'm all about disdain for the establishment, but motivations and means are important to understand and discuss. More on that later.

2)" Ask and ye shall receive, although proving a negative is a task I wager you might not be willing to work with. I can state that because I have a big gun, there are no space aliens raiding my fridge, but you can't outright prove that I'm incorrect there... unless I suppose if you catch a space alien in fact raiding my fridge. The results of breakthroughs are pretty encouraging, though.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/how-they-work.html

3)" I understand your touchiness here, but do relax. I haven't called you a nazi, I'm just stating that when right-aligned individuals bring up international banking, antisemitism often rears its ugly head. I'm inviting you to elaborate on your "lets not get started" bit, because I'd rather like you to elaborate.

4)" Vaccines in general aren't profitable, Covid Vaccination obviously is a whole new bag of crazy due to the private nature which manages the rights. No lie, it is a disgusting thing, and capitalism is pretty easy to fault as a result. Still doesn't change the fact that there is, contrary to your statement, a place you can go to hold the companies liable for damages for vaccination injuries.

In conclusion, I still disagree with everything you said, but you get full marks for trying way harder and with more substance than your peers thus far! Please, do go on, this is what I'm here for! Legit love.

Your first link is a 'Fact Check' from Reuters lol... these are literally always wrong. Instead of typing into google and clicking the first MSM article you could find, how about watch what KARY MULLIS HIMSELF SAID LIVE. Not a paid-off fact checker. Do some actual research into PCR. 'Fact Check' with literally no proof

lol the fact you use "MSM" make your argument non-exsiting as im pretty sure your doing "your own Research"

How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.

 

[Dakitten]

Your first link is a 'Fact Check' from Reuters lol... these are literally always wrong. Instead of typing into google and clicking the first MSM article you could find, how about watch what KARY MULLIS HIMSELF SAID LIVE. Not a paid-off fact checker. Do some actual research into PCR. 'Fact Check' with literally no proof


How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.

You can dismiss the article without reading it if you like (though wow, that goes a long way to upping your credibility), but it doesn't put aside the fact that Kary Mullis was dead before the outbreak, and that his statements don't really apply. But hey, I appreciate your pointing out something interesting! Now can you get something relevant, or are you going to don a tinfoil hat and just go back into the right wing hidey hole of "nuh uh! ur dubm!" like the others?

 

[Rustygx]

No lie, it is a disgusting thing, and capitalism is pretty easy to fault as a result.

And you have zero understanding of economics also. It's not capitalism if a government forcefully redistributes your wealth to pay for these so-called vaccines when you have no choice in the matter. Governments do not produce anything of value and pay for things by either taxation or borrowing (you still pay for that). It's crony-capitalism at best, communism at worst.

 

[Lacius]

There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.

Everything I stated is supported by the science.

Edit: Sources (with links to studies) linked below.

• https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness.html
• https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html

 

[djpannda]

How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.

yes yes we know ..LIZard People...bla bla bla ... The Freemasons Bla Bla Bla

Censorship Vs disinformation is the issue.
You notice most of the people "speaking up" not top tier people.. You ever think they are "speaking out " for the clout and Grifting??

 

[D34DL1N3R]

Your first link is a 'Fact Check' from Reuters lol... these are literally always wrong. Instead of typing into google and clicking the first MSM article you could find, how about watch what KARY MULLIS HIMSELF SAID LIVE. Not a paid-off fact checker. Do some actual research into PCR. 'Fact Check' with literally no proof


How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.

What are your own preferred sources for factual news? What outlets do you watch? Please tell me which channels/stations/outlets I should be tuning into regularly for a big fat helping of brutal honesty.

 

[Dakitten]

And you have zero understanding of economics also. It's not capitalism if a government forcefully redistributes your wealth to pay for these so-called vaccines when you have no choice in the matter. Governments do not produce anything of value and pay for things by either taxation or borrowing (you still pay for that). It's crony-capitalism at best, communism at worst.

And now you've officially confused me. You don't like corporate media outlets, corporate super-hoarders like Bill Gates, or pharmaceutical giants... but its the government that earns your ire. Have you ever considered that the government is corrupted by the monied individuals, and that removing consolidated wealth would make governments more fair? Just saying~

Also, governments produce tons of things of value. Roads, police, schools, sewers, social programs, the infrastructure on which the internet was built, and they are the means by which private individuals can validate and hold onto their individual property. I may not agree or like everything in that list, but they most certainly have value. In communism, you ideally remove the concentration of money, but few governments have actually attempted it in earnest, and the United States for sure doesn't have the ability to claim communism.

It is a lovely style of governing, however, if there is a strong sense of public service in the population. I'm grateful for my time in the US military having shown me how nicely an involved government can take care of dedicated service folk... while they're enlisted, anyways. And during a time of peace.

 

[MMX]

There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.

with the amount of false positives through various testing methods, it is true. there is no reliable test for covid.

 

[SaiyaTrunX]

Since this seems a heated discussion, I will keep it simple:

Got vaccinated a while ago, both shots with biontec/pfizer. No big problems, just a little pain in my back after the first shot. My wife got a cross vaccination astra-zeneca/moderna, both time a little fever for about 5-6 hours. No further problems since then for both of us.

Short story short, feeling bad/sick for a short peroid of time seems like a good trade in for not worrying about covid any more.

 

[jimbo13]

it is important to remember that COVID-denial and vaccine hesitancy come from a place of fear.

It's rather crass to declare what other peoples feelings are when you don't share their experience. It's a rather common moral tenet of modern progressiveness you don't assign motivation or experience of a people which you are not party too.

First off Covid vaccines are a dangerous enough product that manufacturers will not release them to the market without blanket immunity from lawsuits. Anyone can spin the minutia to make an argument any way they like. The risk is minimal but it is not zero.

If anyone here is afraid of something it's the pharmaceutical companies of lawsuits.

Most people who do not get the vaccine are doing so based on accurate information, what is an acceptable risk or inconvenience to you may not be to them.

Secondly is civil disobedience. The partisan divide in vaccinations is not coincidental.

People have contempt for this government, they have been lied too and gaslighted about Covid and have made the decision not to participate in the nonsense. For many it is a small to risk to take to not be a brownie point on a chart in an agenda they view as politicized.

People are fully capable of reading and understanding the same information as you and coming to a different conclusion about their body.

 

[Lacius]

It's rather crass to declare what other peoples feelings are when you don't share their experience. It's a rather common moral tenet of modern progressiveness you don't assign motivation or experience of a people which you are not party too.

First off Covid vaccines are a dangerous enough product that manufacturers will not release them to the market without blanket immunity from lawsuits. Anyone can spin the minutia to make an argument any way they like. The risk is minimal but it is not zero.

If anyone here is afraid of something it's the pharmaceutical companies of lawsuits.

Most people who do not get the vaccine are doing so based on accurate information, what is an acceptable risk or inconvenience to you may not be to them.

Secondly is civil disobedience. The partisan divide in vaccinations is not coincidental.

People have contempt for this government, they have been lied too and gaslighted about Covid and have made the decision not to participate in the nonsense. For many it is a small to risk to take to not be a brownie point on a chart in an agenda they view as a politicized.

People are fully capable of reading and understanding the same information as you and coming to a different conclusion about their body.

The data shows the vaccines are incredibly safe. It's anti-vax and anti-scientific to suggest they aren't.

One doesn't have to go farther than this thread to see that anti-vax sentiments are largely based on misinformation about COVID-19 and the vaccines.

You and I are in agreement that the government lied about COVID-19, but those lies came from the former president when he attempted to downplay the pandemic for political reasons at the cost of lives.