Hacking Compiling WBFS on Mac OS X

[collin]

Clearly states that source to the wbfs, which is the only thing under the GPLv2, is going to be available on darkten's server. So, sure, a reference to this is lacking in the official package so far, but I doubt it will in any upcoming release.

Being as it isn't and there is no attribution, the developers are in violation of the GPL. End of story.

QUOTE(the_homebrew_channel-1.0.1/README.txt)SALES AND SCAMS

The Homebrew Channel is not licensed for redistribution, sale, or bundling.
We reserve the right to request the removal of any redistributed copies of
this software. Any kind of sale, bundling, or association with commercial
activity is strictly forbidden.

I'm of the opinion that if one is so concerned about their property rights, they should consider the rights of others as well. They took the effort to label their stuff, perhaps they should have protected others and not just included it as an... update.

 

[darkten]

Colin:

I have been working with the GPL, and GPL'd software since the only way you could get linux was on about 30 floppies, circa 1993-94.

That said, here is the Party Line:

I don't care how much fucking pissing and moaning you do, you will not be getting the source to our cocoa code...ever.

I would rather suck a dog's dick in a cold wet alley...in front of a live studio audience first.

If that isn't clear, let me put it this way:

No one...NO ONE gives a shit about what MacOS X users want or need wrt tools for things like this. Between 3 people, we've spent about 90 hours on this software...tapping several resources on MY dime as a gesture.

Let me tell you what Plan B is:

We release the mods we've just finished to the wbfs binary...that adds a little bit of buffering and rename support, and say Good Luck and God Bless.

Eh? Not a lot of fucking VALUE THERE for MacOS X Users...huh?

Here is another piece of info for ya: your OS sits on top of an assload of GPL2 code. Ask Apple for the Xcode source code...or better yet, crack open the About Box. There isn't a goddamned line about GCC4 and friends in there...and for good reason.

When we release (now, without question the FINAL VERSION..and don't bother, anyone berating Colin for 'making us mad'...we don't really want your praise or platitudes. I am a damn near 40 year old man...not some "scene child"...that doesn't make my socks go up and down) what we're just finishing up, with 10.5 features like NSOperation/NSOpQueue-powered job processing, a fine Queue, lots of spit and polish and a whole lot of love, inside the zip or dmg will be the DIFFS against Kwiirk's code with a note about how we had to hand massage shitty Windows code into the thing to make features people requested that we never intended in the first place (ruining my weekend. I detest vstudio and MS fake C with a passion. The code wasn't crap...the implementation was...the win32 guys just hijacked the *nix code...no #ifdefs...a real pain in the ass) because really, in the "spirit of giving" and GPL compliance and the whole DIY thing...you can build it for yourself and hope in hell our patches apply cleanly.

The main reason why so much GPL'd stuff is so half backed is because of the sense of entitlement behind it...and this is coming from someone that was a HUGE PROPONENT of OSS until well, when folks stared saying "let's make it good for the users" the vast majority sang back..."let them figure it out".

I do sincerely hope you all enjoy the effort...om_nous really pulled out the stops and even g3P came thru in a pinch to help YOU...the Mac Users that no one gives two craps about.

We made it for US. We are sharing it with you.

Enjoy.

And don't ask for another goddamned thing...because the suggestion will be to "just run windows" 

10+d10 Keyboard of Righteous Indignation

 

[darkten]

Clearly states that source to the wbfs, which is the only thing under the GPLv2, is going to be available on darkten's server. So, sure, a reference to this is lacking in the official package so far, but I doubt it will in any upcoming release.

Being as it isn't and there is no attribution, the developers are in violation of the GPL. End of story.

I welcome the copyright holder to contact me directly.

That said...we're done.

Will be releasing the following:

Nothing.

We will be adding the following:

The diffs against wbfs from our April 2nd release. Essentially, everything we've done since then will not be released, for fear of another "GPL Violation"...since what we released was technically a "preview" anyway.

This is a neat little thing about the GPL; we can make all the changes we want...and as long as we don't give the result to you, we can keep them...forever.

Can't we, Colin?

Colin Wins! We won't be "leeching" (for free) off of Kwiirik's GPL code!

Good Luck and God Bless.

 

[SpAM_CAN]

Really good app, now we just need re-name support

 

[darkten]

Really good app, now we just need re-name support

I suggest you ask Colin to implement it.

 

[collin]

anyone berating Colin for 'making us mad'...we don't really want your praise or platitudes

Ha, this made me like you. The question I asked was legitimate, born out of curiosity and not some OSS fundamentalism. I am academically interested why you chose not to open it if you aren't considering commercializing it.

I liked the quote because this last, stupid page was between me and your... fans... and not really any grudge against you.

QUOTE(darkten @ Apr 6 2009, 09:45 AM) inside the zip or dmg will be the DIFFS against Kwiirk's code with a note about how we had to hand massage shitty Windows code into the thing to make features people requested that we never intended in the first place

Actually, you don't even need that. All you need is a note in the package to see your website for said diff.

 

[aml435]

The irony of a heated debate taking place over the intricate legalities of a piece of software designed to pirate other software cracks me up.

Anyway, to the guys behind the Mac OS version of wbfs and the slick gui that came with it, I just wanted to throw out a "Thanks for the work you put into it."

It sucks we won't be seeing more thanks to a vocal minority stirring up melodrama, but regardless, what you did release publicly is very much appreciated by those who use it.

 

[collin]

Really good app, now we just need re-name support

I suggest you ask Colin to implement it.


Collin says: the hours of programming this would take -- wasted life and potential income -- are not worth such frivolities. Cope.

QUOTE(aml435 @ Apr 6 2009, 10:06 AM)

The irony of a heated debate taking place over the intricate legalities of a piece of software designed to pirate other software cracks me up.

Clearly you didn't read the About -- "Don't Steal Games"

 

[darkten]

The irony of a heated debate taking place over the intricate legalities of a piece of software designed to pirate other software cracks me up.

If this is your intended use...shame on you!

Remember...you are talking to someone that develops commercial MacOS X and iPhone software and has been on the slimy end of the copyright violation dookie stick.

That isn't the purpose or the point at all. The fact of the matter is, I have 3 kids that are fast and loose with optical media. I was VERY PLEASED with W & K's solution...so too was my wife...because it makes it easier for us to buy more stuff. Just like we do with dvs and cds.

In the About Box we make it clear: Don't Steal Software.

You do whatchalike.

QUOTEAnyway, to the guys behind the Mac OS version of wbfs and the slick gui that came with it, I just wanted to throw out a "Thanks for the work you put into it."

It sucks we won't be seeing more thanks to a vocal minority stirring up melodrama, but regardless, what you did release publicly is very much appreciated by those who use it.

No thanks is needed. We didn't really do it for you

+d10

 

[collin]

This is a neat little thing about the GPL; we can make all the changes we want...and as long as we don't give the result to you, we can keep them...forever.

Can't we, Colin?

Colin Wins! We won't be "leeching" (for free) off of Kwiirik's GPL code!

Good Luck and God Bless.

Yes, yes you may.

QUOTE(darkten @ Apr 6 2009, 09:51 AM) diffs against wbfs from our April 2nd release. Essentially, everything we've done since then will not be released, for fear of another "GPL Violation"...since what we released was technically a "preview" anyway.

Well, if you want to get pedantic, you can start by spelling my name right and end with understanding that there is no "preview clause" in GPLv2.

 

[joshysquashy]

Clearly states that source to the wbfs, which is the only thing under the GPLv2, is going to be available on darkten's server. So, sure, a reference to this is lacking in the official package so far, but I doubt it will in any upcoming release.

Being as it isn't and there is no attribution, the developers are in violation of the GPL. End of story.

I welcome the copyright holder to contact me directly.

That said...we're done.

Will be releasing the following:

Nothing.

We will be adding the following:

The diffs against wbfs from our April 2nd release. Essentially, everything we've done since then will not be released, for fear of another "GPL Violation"...since what we released was technically a "preview" anyway.

This is a neat little thing about the GPL; we can make all the changes we want...and as long as we don't give the result to you, we can keep them...forever.

Can't we, Colin?

Colin Wins! We won't be "leeching" (for free) off of Kwiirik's GPL code!

Good Luck and God Bless.

This would be a real shame if you didn't release your updates. As others have said, there is no chance of any legal action being taken against you as WBFS is in a very grey area in the first place.

Many people (myself included) would love to see this latest development of the software you largely made for yourselves. Even if this new version is the last you release. If you made it already, why not share it? I know some will bug you about features (sorry if that's me!) and some will bug you about legal issues or their "entitlement" to the source. But if you don't like what people post, then ignore them.

We get what you are saying, you don't have to release anything, you are doing us a favour, but please reconsider.

 

[darkten]

Really good app, now we just need re-name support

I suggest you ask Colin to implement it.


Collin says: the hours of programming this would take -- wasted life and potential income -- are not worth such frivolities. Cope.

QUOTE(aml435 @ Apr 6 2009, 10:06 AM)

The irony of a heated debate taking place over the intricate legalities of a piece of software designed to pirate other software cracks me up.

Clearly you didn't read the About -- "Don't Steal Games"

And you just made up for pissing me the hell off. Well played

That made ME like YOU...my new online Pal.

I have two major peeves...one of which I misunderstood from you:

1. Entitlement - I understand now your question was, as you say, academic. My answer: We don't want to. We have a good codebase here for other things totally unrelated that cost a lot of hours to implement and the intent was never to make it a community thing in the first place.

2. People that do not take the 3 minutes or less to read what I write. Docs eat up time to do and folks just don't bother...but whine when they are not provided. Occupational hazard.

I'll talk to om_nous after we have a nap (we have been pushing to get this out...we did about 18 hours on it today) and if he wants to go ahead with it, and the endless support and feature requests for free...

d10

 

[darkten]

-oops...d-posted.

 

[collin]

Here is another piece of info for ya: your OS sits on top of an assload of GPL2 code. Ask Apple for the Xcode source code...or better yet, crack open the About Box. There isn't a goddamned line about GCC4 and friends in there...and for good reason.

While this is technically true, my counterpoint would be to search 'gnu' in the documentation. Or look at acknowledgements in Safari. I quit now, lest I violate peeve two

QUOTEhave a good codebase here for other things

I'll talk to om_nous after we have a nap (we have been pushing to get this out...we did about 18 hours on it today) and if he wants to go ahead with it, and the endless support and feature requests for free...

Does this mean that you are interested in commercializing the application or put off by the labor of support?

If I come off is combative, I apologize. I've been keenly interested in the issue of copyleft versus non- in software development. I mean academically in a literal context; grad studies. Having been in this history since the third post, I feel particularly invested.

 

[darkten]

Well, if you want to get pedantic, you can start by spelling my name right and end with understanding that there is no "preview clause" in GPLv2.

I know this full well after the dicking over the 3iVX guys got due to an ooooops! compiler flag when they were working on diva...I know one of the principles personally in that matter.

OpenShiva was a fantastic effort (chuckle) for the source code they got. (No...not really)

Either way...OUR APP is not using a single line of GPL'd code.

Why are we still talking about this again?

 

[collin]

Why are we still talking about this again?

Because you caught my post before I caught yours and deleted that

**closes his underused copy of xcode and goes to sleep.

 

[darkten]

This would be a real shame if you didn't release your updates. As others have said, there is no chance of any legal action being taken against you as WBFS is in a very grey area in the first place.

Many people (myself included) would love to see this latest development of the software you largely made for yourselves. Even if this new version is the last you release. If you made it already, why not share it? I know some will bug you about features (sorry if that's me!) and some will bug you about legal issues or their "entitlement" to the source. But if you don't like what people post, then ignore them.

We get what you are saying, you don't have to release anything, you are doing us a favour, but please reconsider.

The problem is it is kind of hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube here. I am a Mac User too which is why this really, really irritates me. Here are your options, as per usual:

Everyone laughs and points, you get nothing for your "lame-ass 'MACS"'.

Someone does a really shitty threadlocked ASS, erm, Applescript Studio Front end....the world passes us by and they just dump the shit on a server someplace and walk away...because they get a new a-hole torn by a bunch of uppity Mac Users that paid thousands for their gear but would't give a buck to click a "Donate" button so the poor slob can at least take his girlfriend to the movies for neglecting her for a bunch know-it-alls and ingrates. I feel the most for these guys, because for them it is almost always a labor of love to help out the other disregarded Mac folks.

Someone says "hey...let's put something together. This ain't bad...might be useful..." only to have a cavalcade of people that cannot or will not contribute code, art, resources, anything do a bunch of "armchair app architecture" raising the Signal-to-Noise ratio substantially.

Or someone with a GPL stick up their asses pulling the sub-paragraphs they like or seem to believe are relevant (believe me...you have to DIG to find Apple's GPL attributions and jump thru hoops to get the source. And ask the kde boys about the source they got back from Apple. We have to give it to you...we don't have to make it easy in ANY WAY to comply) to make a point.

See...I've been thru this MANY TIMES in the past 12 years, and when you talk to the *actual copyright holders of the code*, in almost all cases they actually are amused that 1. someone is porting to OS X and 2. if it is in a commercial product that Mac Users are "stupid" enough to pay for value-ad when they can just run stuff in the term.

Usually the most vocal people advocating OSS DO NOT WRITE CODE. It is a "religion" for them.

So you know, as it stands, proud Mac User that I am..and programmer that I am, it doesn't matter to me if anyone ever sees another copy of the thing...and after talking to om_...he doesn't really care either, because as he said, he got a great codebase out of the deal.

In real, measurable terms *we* aren't being hurt in ANY way. Hell, neither of us even *need* a multi-thousand line application to use the thing that runs in the term. No one *needs* it.

I assure you, the changes we made for OS X and our "just a gui" around the wbfs tool won't be making it back into the main source. I'm not even sure he's doing anything else with it at all; it already met his needs and the butchering going on with the windows stuff is actually making MORE WORK for anyone not using windows.

Well...we did port the windows rename back to unix...he might use that. I assure you tho that the rest f the stuff (improved progress tracking, etc) won't be ported by me.

The amount of time I spent reading this thread, which btw, I was sent to with a "OMG...you will NOT BELIEVE THIS" message...distracting me from actually, you know, coding, was exchanged for that coding that won't be done. Maybe g3power will beat it into submission in the core...but he's a busy guy too and we have actual jobs and stuff to do for Yankee Money....know what I'm sayin'?

Again, I'll be in contact w/ om_ in about 7 hours. We'll see. Art assets still need to be created, but I'm not really feeling like doing it, or getting anyone else to for this effort.

And that is the lesson for today...one that has been repeated time and time again: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Be GRATEFUL when anyone bothers to write ANYTHING for MacOS X for free. It isn't a particularly easy platform to develop for because of Apple's...not-so-great documentation, and user expectations are so high...and the people that write Mac Software (of any kind) are Mac Users too.

XCode is free, btw

Something think about.

 

[darkten]

... which is the minimal legal requirement. Clearly, it is being bundled in executable form (§3) with no written offer (vis-a-vis attribution) and therefore violates said license. I'm not sure that you could reasonably disagree that the implication is that there must be a reference in the bundle -- be it the app itself or the distribution package. And to preempt any counterpoint -- this forum is not the venue for such fulfillments.

Well, you are true in that in the original release, no such offer was included. However:

QUOTEor give me the source code so I can do it? Thanks.

Nope. Can't have that. You can have the sources to the wbfs bin; we made some mods to make the output easier to parse. I'll put this on my server after I wake from my nap.

-d10 Want and Woe.

Clearly states that source to the wbfs, which is the only thing under the GPLv2, is going to be available on darkten's server. So, sure, a reference to this is lacking in the official package so far, but I doubt it will in any upcoming release.

I totally missed this. Of COURSE we are going to do this...hell in the version we have now, I actually got an "ehh...no thanks" to my asking "how do you want to be credited?" question.

The problem is that you know, many people that support the GPL sort do the "dial 9-1 and wait for shit to happen" clause...and depending on who you are dealing with, the response is either "oops...my bad..here" or "WTF? Tell you what..you take it and stick it up your ass" because in virtually every case I've personally seen, no one on the GPL side seems to have basic manners and courtesy. The assumption is that someone is "stealing" from them to enhance their "proprietary" software.

Trust and believe...I could live my whole life without looking at another line of code for this thing and it won't be missed. I'm more pissed that I let it cut into my "enjoy your new DSi" time than any of this nonsense.

BTW...om_ actually out of the kindess of his heart actually tossed in formatting support too....tho I personally don't know why

Thank you joda for reading what I posted and pointing it out

d10

 

[darkten]

Addendum: No .app citation of HBC's work either.

And HBC's work would be...?

d10

 

[twidel]

Guys thank you for this amazing program!

Is super fast! and very good looking!

i dont understand why people here say that is slow!! (im using a 2.5" external usb 400Gb western digital drive)

thanks thanks thanks!

amazing!