Capitalism v Communism

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Since so many arguments develop over it. Let's just have a dedicated thread right here for it. Primarily anything against or for one side.
I'm just going to state this, keep your economic systems (capitalism and communism) separate from your governing ones (democracies, monarchies,totalitarian,etc). So genocides and so on, that's decided by the governing system, that is a governing choice. If you can't separate it, you need to seriously need to reconsider about debating on this thread.
 
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In the real world, I have a despise against capitalism, but it seems to work better than communism until people can figure stuff out. I do think capitalism should be reformed to allow the poor to not remain poor forever. If you're rich, you can fall, but rarely any get back up from poor. I've helped by donating a lot to people less fortunate than me, and I'm still in a less fortunate circumstance because of Capitalism. I think it needs reform, but communism would be ineffective as of now.

I am not against or for either capitalism or communism in the real world. They need to be reformed from what they are now. It may go to show that some stuff is entirely ineffective to a certain point. For now, I think governments should contemplate social change and effects before moving into newer reforms.


Now in Minecraft, communism is effective up until a certain point because the distribution of these goods helps build up the society as a whole. Eventually, factions will form and spread into tribalism or capitalism.
 
This would be a cool thread if anyone actually knew what Communism was

I'm just going to state this, keep your economic systems (capitalism and communism) separate from your governing ones (democracies, monarchies,totalitarian,etc).

It's impossible to separate Capitalism and the state (government) tho. Under Capitalism the market works to reinforce the state and the state exists to protect private property (the market). It's a self-reinforcing circle, without the market the state would collapse but without the state the market would have nothing to protect it from the dirty commies socializing everything.

It is also very hard to separate the state and Communism, though theoretically not impossible according to anarcho-communists like Kropotkin.

Capitalism and Communism exist as systems of both economics and of governing, so I don't really see making a distinction between the state and the economic system it operates within very worthwhile.
 
Last edited by Seliph,
Capitalism may have its downsides, which all things do, but Communism has left its mark on the world and its millions of times worse than Capitalism. Capitalism seems like the best option, but I'd be up for trying something new. What I don't want to do is to repeat history so trying Communism or Socialism again would not be an option as they are old ways to Govern that have always failed to work. We don't need to repeat the past, especially what happens when Communism takes over.
 
but I'd be up for trying something new.

What would you propose? I find a lot of people say this but when asked what they want they either don't know or just describe Capitalism again.

edit: ah geez I forgot this guy had me blocked someone else ask him
 
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Authoritarianism/oligarchy has proven to be the downfall of both economic systems, but we've also never seen a democratic socialist or democratic communist system be given an honest try (without interference from America/the CIA anyway). You look at Scandinavian countries which are primarily capitalist but with a sprinkling of socialist ideas and strong social welfare programs, and just that little bit of 'people over profits' mentality makes their economies that much stronger and makes their quality of life that much better.
 
Capitalism may have its downsides, which all things do, but Communism has left its mark on the world and its millions of times worse than Capitalism. Capitalism seems like the best option, but I'd be up for trying something new. What I don't want to do is to repeat history so trying Communism or Socialism again would not be an option as they are old ways to Govern that have always failed to work. We don't need to repeat the past, especially what happens when Communism takes over.
What would you propose? I find a lot of people say this but when asked what they want they either don't know or just describe Capitalism again. --Seliph
 
What would you propose? I find a lot of people say this but when asked what they want they either don't know or just describe Capitalism again. --Seliph

What I'd choose doesn't exist. I'd just be up for trying something new if it made sense. As for communism I really don't know a whole heck of a lot I just know it's bad mojo.
 
This would be a cool thread if anyone actually knew what Communism was
Yeah, it's a mess, well it's more so they think they know communism, and then describe effectively something that isn't really accurate to communism.

I can't really get everything that makes communism, communism. (i've done it so many times it hurts, and I don't feel like making another essay again)
But the most major point is that "Workers own means to production"
which just basically means all resources are easily accessible, rather than corporations hording it, ready to be used be the working class. this means factories and so on, aren't owned by the CEO or some higher up, but rather all workers there individually.
 
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As for communism I really don't know a whole heck of a lot I just know it's bad mojo.
classic

I can't really get everything that makes communism, communism. But the most major point is that "Workers own means to production"
Yeah, that's a good starting point for sure
 
Last edited by Seliph,
What I'd choose doesn't exist. I'd just be up for trying something new if it made sense.
Okay... well. So you can't imagine a new system? But up to try something new.
I mean at least your acknowledging somewhat the current one doesn't work or isn't working, which I will agree with you there.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

What I'd choose doesn't exist. I'd just be up for trying something new if it made sense. As for communism I really don't know a whole heck of a lot I just know it's bad mojo.
Seliph's response: "classic"
I'd advise unblocking her so I don't have to forward responses, you can re block her later if you really want to. though as I understand she has some strong points to add to the discussion here. Make my life a little easier you know? I get her point, basically, a lot of us have heard "we don't know what communism is, but I heard it's bad"
when in reality, there's a lot of misconceptions. Kinda like how everyone is like "sharks are out for your blood" when really they aren't.
 
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There's no simple discussion like capitalism x socialism, because both are different in nature.

Capitalism is a posthumous finding of an "economic" system, from which all other areas of the human organization suffers direct influence (religion, social costumes, politics, international relations, inner comercial relations, etc). The motor of history is the class struggle (Marx). Never was a conceived ideology. Never was conceived!

Communism (the objective of Socialism) is an Ideology. It' not from Marx. Look way back in Saint Simon. Russia and the URSS were a (1st ever) try to put this (very complex) Ideology in the real world, in the form of a political system. In this ideology, all areas of the human organization is pre conceived, in theory.

Ideology is like the horizon: The more you came closer, more far it is. Does not serve as a place we will reach. It serves as a reason to walk.
 
Last edited by almmiron,
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Going to go long for this one, even if it means it will be skipped. Don't know if I can go short and get any kind of point across other than to say communism would likely fail in an ideal world, and this is not an ideal world.

It is hard to divorce aspects of government from the economy. If the government has no economic levers* to pull then they almost cease to have power and at that point we have anarcho capitalism at worst and laissez faire at best.
As with most things it is also a spectrum, and of many dimensions. Some might even argue communism is not even on the spectrum and is in fact its own thing but I will consider it as an extreme end of socialism for this (this going whether you are following Mao, North Korea, later Chinese efforts, Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin, Marx, heavily revised Marx or the near mythical proto communism efforts which have no texts, historical implementations or really anything to look at or contemplate, and would be made before the industrial revolution, never mind the silicon and networking ones).
As a post scarcity world does not appear to be on the horizon just yet (be it by replicator or VR), and we are also all similarly apes that, biologically speaking, are still only adapted for small tribe (let's go with Dunbar's number) living in a savannah we have to consider that too.

*whether these levers are top down, bottom up, ever even knowable (something in one place can have vastly unexpected effects in vastly different areas**) or something a government should be touching... actually I was going to say is another discussion but realistically it is this one.

**see the recent failure of Archeos



Various companies noted in graphs in those had share prices tank as a result of that. Was it because they did anything wrong? Nope some banks which owned said shares had over extended themselves (in a rather silly manner) and had to sell off, mass sale means prices drop. But one example of unexpected changes in one area causing knock on effects in another.

Communism and economics thereof. Historically has failed everywhere it has been tried at a scale larger than a farm, and even those tend to fail. Generally tends to utterly fail to account for human psychology, how things work, advancement of science, geography (sell ice to an eskimo, sand to an arab and all that, even though amusingly enough there are examples of both -- desert sand is useless for concrete we have today and owing to international shipping codes then ice does indeed go to iceland https://grapevine.is/news/2016/10/20/imported-ice-cubes-in-iceland-cheaper-than-domestic-ice-cubes/ . Though more generally this country has better farmland, infrastructure already there and oil just waiting to be sucked out of the ground).
The idea of a centralised price model rather than model realised in the field is so utterly moronic that I struggle to even state how much it is, and it is a fundamental aspect of communism from what I can see. Amusingly enough we can happily look to some of the most hardened and ardent supporters of capitalism as the amount of waste and stupidity that happens in government projects, departments and militaries is staggering.
Even without that you have hard problems if you have limited resources. So you whip your workers hard enough (presumably by making the whip masters fat and happy -- Maslow's hierarchy and all that, so much for equality I guess) that you have produced 200 units of steel. I could state a number for demand for this example but frankly it is infinite (if there is some going then drop it in my garden (I*** have 500 acres of it because I guess land is not a scarce resource and there is always more of it), I will find a use for it one day and enjoy it in the meantime), though leaving aside that do I build railways or do I build buildings? Both will benefit but now we get to quantify it which is almost impossible, and that is just for two scenarios for a single resource.

***how one handles the free rider problem, sociopath problem and more is also up for debate. Now at some level cooperation is baked into human biology (it is a rather successful strategy) but there are also those blessed few born without such qualms or raised such that they are similarly unbothered, and being that in a society of sheep is potentially quite lucrative. Master your baser urges, and also be given some boons and all of a sudden you have the work ethic, smarts, fearlessness (checking for the lion behind the bush is useful but the one that carries on running without checking is the first to spear the gazelle, except there are no lions any more and the ability to take risks will get you ahead).
Of course free riders and sociopaths are one aspect. Price's law https://dariusforoux.com/prices-law/ (50% of the work is done by the square root of the total number of people who participate in the work) kicks into play too.

At the same time I have spent a lot of time in the US. Not a shining example of things there -- only time I have ever heard a medical issue leading to bankruptcy here in the UK is a company going pop because one of their key employees lost a game of beat the bus and while everybody is replaceable at some level then some are harder than others (another thing to consider -- everybody is not equal, some are stronger, smarter, more resilient, less sickly... and that is played to by both nature and nurture and the idea of a blank slate is also ridiculous, all this before you consider the biological and psychological differences between the sexes).
The nature of fines and laws and the almost adversarial nature of things in the US... no thanks, though I can just about deal with it (me being a skilled person without any debts or responsibilities that is familiar with general legal procedure, has training to resist psychological pressures and the ability to drum up a fair bit of cash in fairly short order almost regardless of my social standing). Can do happily and far more easily in much of Europe though, especially once you get outside the capital cities (though how much said cities are dragging the rest along with them is up for debate).
The US' take on town planning, house design and more is abysmal, the strong towns series by not just bikes serving as a pretty good primer here and that is a nice centrally planned/dictated setup (what is a zoning law if not...). Not that places like Australia, Japan, the UK or much of Europe do better in every regard.
On Europe though then also a developed part of the world, nice weather... basically comparable to the US in most ways that matter for people, how smart said people are and the rest. Rather different number of tech companies (name me even 5 that are going toe to toe with any of the US efforts, and those that do rise up usually get snapped up and happily move to the US) that push things forward.

Equality of outcome is boring, and everything in psychology says humans are hierarchical and tribal. You compare yourself to your immediate peers most of the time (why those earning a lot more than you or I might still steal). Hardship is also a thing to face -- how many companies don't make a fourth generation, how many trust fund kiddies fail hard, how many people on benefits are basically sheep...

Amusingly enough for all those that might say we never had proper/true communism (something I would say is an impossibility pending without post scarcity or radical changes to biology) then I don't think pure capitalism has ever been tried (be it anarcho capitalism or laissez faire flavours) and certainly not in the modern world. The US for example has any number of things from medical care (see percentage of GDP spent on things, more than border force military, police, fire, libraries and much more besides, as well as any number of interesting incentives and caps on things).

To that end. Some flavour of mixed economy works for me. Prefer the various models of northern Europe to most places, but they are also not without problems. If you wind in politics then I would probably skew even further away from communism as historical abuses (which seem inevitable) there are far more unpleasant than having to deal with some nepotism.
 
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Communism (the objective of Socialism) is an Ideology.
This literally couldn't be any further from the truth. Marxism-Leninism, the "ideology", as you say, behind socialism and communism, has dialectical materialism as its core principle. Which means it's based on observing the material conditions in society, analyzing them, and making decisions based on said observations.
Seriously, this is like Communism 101. It's pretty much the first thing you learn when you decide to seriously study about marxism-leninism and communism as a whole.

Historically has failed everywhere it has been tried
Not really? The USSR turned from a semi-feudal country into a global superpower within two decades. Its peasantry got education, work, houses, food, and eventually even went to space. After the collapse of the USSR, poverty and unemployment skyrocketed the following years. I'm not sure what part of this can be seen as "failure", really.
The same can be said for Burkina Faso. Sankara vaccinated, educated, and fed millions of people in a country that was literally miserable before he came to power. Too bad he was killed and all that work pretty much went to waste.

Now, not to mention past socialist experiences, let's talk about the current-day ones.
There are currently five countries in the world that can be considered socialist, or, at least, working towards becoming socialist.

Now, you may notice I describe all of these with the word socialist rather than communist. And there IS a reason for that.
But not to make this any longer than it already is, I'll just give a brief summary:
Socialism is a stage of transition between capitalism and communism. Communism is the final goal of socialism, and can only be achieved when a socialist country has developed its productive forces enough to do so.

Back to the matter at hand - the five currently socialist countries.
China, Cuba, (North) Korea, Laos, Vietnam.
Yes, only these five. No other country in the world is socialist or striving towards it nowadays.
Would you say socialism "failed" in these five countries?
China has literally extinguished poverty. In a country with over a billion inhabitants.
It provides food, shelter, education, work, healthcare, and leisure for all of them.
Not to mention, it is also on its way to become the largest economy in the world.

Cuba also has country-wide food, shelter, education, and healthcare. So does Vietnam and Korea.
Vietnam, a country that 40 years ago was bombed to near destruction by the US, is the one single most successful country in fighting the COVID pandemic. They kept the number of deaths at zero for well over 4 months after the virus came into there.

Which part of that can be considered a failure, exactly?
 
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This literally couldn't be any further from the truth. Marxism-Leninism, the "ideology", as you say, behind socialism and communism, has dialectical materialism as its core principle. Which means it's based on observing the material conditions in society, analyzing them, and making decisions based on said observations.
Seriously, this is like Communism 101. It's pretty much the first thing you learn when you decide to seriously study about marxism-leninism and communism as a whole.


Not really? The USSR turned from a semi-feudal country into a global superpower within two decades. Its peasantry got education, work, houses, food, and eventually even went to space. After the collapse of the USSR, poverty and unemployment skyrocketed the following years. I'm not sure what part of this can be seen as "failure", really.
The same can be said for Burkina Faso. Sankara vaccinated, educated, and fed millions of people in a country that was literally miserable before he came to power. Too bad he was killed and all that work pretty much went to waste.

Now, not to mention past socialist experiences, let's talk about the current-day ones.
There are currently five countries in the world that can be considered socialist, or, at least, working towards becoming socialist.

Now, you may notice I describe all of these with the word socialist rather than communist. And there IS a reason for that.
But not to make this any longer than it already is, I'll just give a brief summary:
Socialism is a stage of transition between capitalism and communism. Communism is the final goal of socialism, and can only be achieved when a socialist country has developed its productive forces enough to do so.

Back to the matter at hand - the five currently socialist countries.
China, Cuba, (North) Korea, Laos, Vietnam.
Yes, only these five. No other country in the world is socialist or striving towards it nowadays.
Would you say socialism "failed" in these five countries?
China has literally extinguished poverty. In a country with over a billion inhabitants.
It provides food, shelter, education, work, healthcare, and leisure for all of them.
Not to mention, it is also on its way to become the largest economy in the world.

Cuba also has country-wide food, shelter, education, and healthcare. So does Vietnam and Korea.
Vietnam, a country that 40 years ago was bombed to near destruction by the US, is the one single most successful country in fighting the COVID pandemic. They kept the number of deaths at zero for well over 4 months after the virus came into there.

Which part of that can be considered a failure, exactly?
Ooh apologetics.

Many other countries industrialised during similar timeframes, if not beforehand. The body count to do it was rather lower, people tended not to starve quite as hard, human rights... nice enough for the time, be purged quite as badly, and probably came out ahead of where things ended up there given the timeframes and baseline resources. Equally what caused this collapse? I don't recall an invasion, plague, environmental catastrophe or similar wiping it out (which would be impressive given the land size, though I suppose a lot is flat, and more near Europe), pretty sure that was an economic failure that finally caused it to fall over. East-west germany and state of affairs there (largely starting with the same population and land, both had nice amount of resources pumped in) and yet to this day the east has not caught up being another nice example.

China as communist? Hahaha. Maybe under Mao (because that worked so well, nobody starved, steel can indeed be produced by peasants) but since then... and it was only after opening markets up did they resume the position they had held a few hundred years before. Also how is that water crisis, birth rate and imminent collapse of various local and national governments when the house market goes pop. To say nothing of dubious justice system, education (is it generally world recognised or do all those nice factory owners send their kids elsewhere?), environment, roads, military, restrictions on citizens.
Extinguished poverty? What are those wages to house prices like?

North Korea. What a model to follow. Cult leaders skimming the fat of the land (what little there is), military as only advancement, usually starving, massive internal secret policing. Bonus is much like east and west germany before we also get to compare it to a place with similar land, sea access, genetic stock to start with when it comes to south Korea. I know which one I would pick.

Laos I know less of the current state for, same for Upper Volta/Burkina Faso. Will put a pin in that pending some research but as neither are particular noted tourist destinations despite their neighbours very much being that I think that says most of what I need to know.

Cuba? You mean the place where the black market is rife as anything, they have a split currency and you would fight hard for a job as a doorman even if you started out a a brain surgeon? Go people.

Vietnam is an interesting case. Still somewhat agrarian . Not seen much of them vs kung flu, though being able to crack down on your citizens is a rather effective way vs having to deal with their personal liberties.
 
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Human Capital is very important

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

This would be a cool thread if anyone actually knew what Communism was



It's impossible to separate Capitalism and the state (government) tho. Under Capitalism the market works to reinforce the state and the state exists to protect private property (the market). It's a self-reinforcing circle, without the market the state would collapse but without the state the market would have nothing to protect it from the dirty commies socializing everything.

It is also very hard to separate the state and Communism, though theoretically not impossible according to anarcho-communists like Kropotkin.

Capitalism and Communism exist as systems of both economics and of governing, so I don't really see making a distinction between the state and the economic system it operates within very worthwhile.
Explain to people what communism is so that they will understand your view
 
This literally couldn't be any further from the truth. Marxism-Leninism, the "ideology", as you say, behind socialism and communism, has dialectical materialism as its core principle. Which means it's based on observing the material conditions in society, analyzing them, and making decisions based on said observations.
Seriously, this is like Communism 101. It's pretty much the first thing you learn when you decide to seriously study about marxism-leninism and communism as a whole.


Not really? The USSR turned from a semi-feudal country into a global superpower within two decades. Its peasantry got education, work, houses, food, and eventually even went to space. After the collapse of the USSR, poverty and unemployment skyrocketed the following years. I'm not sure what part of this can be seen as "failure", really.
The same can be said for Burkina Faso. Sankara vaccinated, educated, and fed millions of people in a country that was literally miserable before he came to power. Too bad he was killed and all that work pretty much went to waste.

Now, not to mention past socialist experiences, let's talk about the current-day ones.
There are currently five countries in the world that can be considered socialist, or, at least, working towards becoming socialist.

Now, you may notice I describe all of these with the word socialist rather than communist. And there IS a reason for that.
But not to make this any longer than it already is, I'll just give a brief summary:
Socialism is a stage of transition between capitalism and communism. Communism is the final goal of socialism, and can only be achieved when a socialist country has developed its productive forces enough to do so.

Back to the matter at hand - the five currently socialist countries.
China, Cuba, (North) Korea, Laos, Vietnam.
Yes, only these five. No other country in the world is socialist or striving towards it nowadays.
Would you say socialism "failed" in these five countries?
China has literally extinguished poverty. In a country with over a billion inhabitants.
It provides food, shelter, education, work, healthcare, and leisure for all of them.
Not to mention, it is also on its way to become the largest economy in the world.

Cuba also has country-wide food, shelter, education, and healthcare. So does Vietnam and Korea.
Vietnam, a country that 40 years ago was bombed to near destruction by the US, is the one single most successful country in fighting the COVID pandemic. They kept the number of deaths at zero for well over 4 months after the virus came into there.

Which part of that can be considered a failure, exactly?
Maybe the over 100 million deaths from communist countries.

Why did they die? Which ideology was exactly of those who died? I can tell: Anti Communist, having endured, lasted through, and finally opted out instead for a more citizen sovereignty way of civilization.
 
(Communism is unreachable by definition. The discussion should be Capitalism v Socialism.)

My opinion: the ideal system is a capitalist one, with progressive taxes and and lots of social assistance programs.

The long version:
When people get to keep the earnings of their production, it works as an incentive to make those people to produce more, and produce better, so if a given nation was a single living organism, capitalism would make this organism stronger.
BUT
A nation is made of individual people, and those who fall behind on a competitive economy can't just die and be replaced like mere cells in an organism. A person deserve a dignifying life, regardless of working hard or taking smart decisions.
Looking from a more cold perspective, people struggling to survive will react somehow, they will not die in silence, so a 100% capitalist country would have to face violence and instability a lot, and that is bad even for the rich people of this hypothetical nation.

So considering identical democracies, living in peace the same era and region, a 100% Capitalist would be a social disaster, a 100% Socialist would be more poor and less productive. That's why I'm for a capitalist nation with welfare mechanisms to keep people of getting too miserable, and tax mechanisms to prevent people to accumulate too much riches.
 
This literally couldn't be any further from the truth. Marxism-Leninism, the "ideology", as you say, behind socialism and communism, has dialectical materialism as its core principle. Which means it's based on observing the material conditions in society, analyzing them, and making decisions based on said observations.
Seriously, this is like Communism 101. It's pretty much the first thing you learn when you decide to seriously study about marxism-leninism and communism as a whole.

I'm a graduated historian.

It's semantics. I understanding the confusing, tough. It's a matter of conotation and denotation.

YES. Communism is an Ideology: A variety of ideas of popular appeal whose goal is to transform society.

Marxism, Leninism are know as methods of academic research/analysis. A more 'global' way of how society works its called a 'system' of analysis. It's very complex and should not be learned from wikipedia. Hegel - from wich Marx learned a Lot - it's one of the first to did such a thing. For Marx, the 'system' is around, indeed, the class struggle trough the dialetic historic materialism.

Marxism became (a strong) one voice of communism, but it's not the ideology behind communism. It's a method of analysis ahead of it.

In my native language maybe I would explain better. But I recommend learn Hegel.
 
Last edited by almmiron,
I'm a graduated historian.

It's semantics. I understanding the confusing, tough. It's a matter of conotation and denotation.

YES. Communism is an Ideology: A variety of ideas of popular appeal whose goal is to transform society.

Marxism, Leninism are know as methods of academic research/analysis. A more 'global' way of how society works its called a 'system' of analysis. It's very complex and should not be learned from wikipedia. Hegel - from wich Marx learned a Lot - it's one of the first to did such a thing. For Marx, the 'system' is around, indeed, the class struggle trough the dialetic historic materialism.

Marxism became (a strong) one voice of communism, but it's not the ideology behind communism. It's a method of analysis.

In my native language maybe I would explain better. But I recommend learn Hegel.
I'll learn Hegal and come back in 5 years so we can discuss economics
 

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