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Capitalism v Communism

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Xzi

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You literally imagined this scenario all by yourself. You have this idea in your head that people who make these decisions personally hate you. People who make those decisions don't know or care that you exist.
I'm not homeless or starving, so I'm obviously not speaking on behalf of myself. The topic is capitalism versus communism, so I'm simply pointing out the mechanisms by which capitalism causes deaths resulting from both poverty and starvation. And of course it's worth noting that this is all by design. These are features of capitalism, not bugs.

Americans are dunking on Cubans even in Cuba, and the dollars they inject into their economy by doing allow that country's continued existence.
Lol I just mentioned how we sabotaged and fucked with Cuba for decades. It somehow continued to exist as a country even without the US's explicit approval. Tourism never should've been restricted for so long.
 
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I'm not homeless or starving, so I'm obviously not speaking on behalf of myself. The topic is capitalism versus communism, so I'm simply pointing out the mechanisms by which capitalism causes deaths resulting from both poverty and starvation. And of course it's worth noting that this is all by design. These are features of capitalism, not bugs.
In the gross majority of cases poor personal decisions that I am not liable for cause poverty and starvation. That's a bug, and it's self-correcting - through poverty and starvation.
Lol I just pointed out how we sabotaged and fucked with Cuba for decades. It somehow continued to exist as a country even without the US's explicit approval. Tourism never should've been restricted for so long.
I don't think there should be any restrictions in the free market. You're barking up the wrong tree. Capitalists don't have an issue with trading with communists, as evidenced by the fact that most things you own are made in, or contain components from, China. True capitalists will trade with the devil if the devil has something they want. Money has no moral compass or ideology, it's an abstract representation of value. We stray further and further away from this ideal, sadly.
 

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In the gross majority of cases poor personal decisions that I am not liable for cause poverty and starvation.
Nobody said you were liable for it. But there's a reason why so many other governments outside of the US implement strong social safety nets: poverty and starvation are inevitable under capitalism, to varying extents. If there are winners, there also have to be losers, and so without vigilance it's easy to backslide from capitalism into a caste system of haves and have-nots.

Capitalists don't have an issue with trading with communists, as evidenced by the fact that most things you own are made in, or contain components from, China.
So are we pretending the red scare didn't happen? Forget just cutting off trade, most of the time the CIA staged military coups in countries where there was even a hint of communism or socialism.

And China might've been communist at one time (before I was born), but they've fully consumed the capitalist Kool-Aid by now. Their wealth and wage gaps are very nearly as bad as our own, second worst in the world.
 

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Nobody said you were liable for it. But there's a reason why so many other governments outside of the US implement strong social safety nets: poverty and starvation are inevitable under capitalism, to varying extents. If there are winners, there also have to be losers, and so without vigilance it's easy to backslide from capitalism into a caste system of haves and have-nots.
Capitalism is an apolitical system of fair exchange of goods and services, the backbone of which is private enterprise. It has nothing to do with how a country operates on a governmental level - in fact, trade can operate in the absence of government, but a modern government, particularly one with said safety nets, cannot operate without trade. We know this since China was a total write-off until they adopted some core capitalist principles which propelled the country on the road of actual societal progress. As a side note, safety is very expensive, and primarily funded by the rich.
So are we pretending the red scare didn't happen? Forget just cutting off trade, most of the time the CIA staged military coups in countries where there was even a hint of communism or socialism.

And China might've been communist at one time (before I was born), but they've fully consumed the capitalist Kool-Aid by now. Their wealth and wage gaps are very nearly as bad as our own, second worst in the world.
Why are you ascribing things capitalism didn't do to capitalism? As for the red scare, there was a lot to be afraid of, but not for any specific financial reason. Political reasons, yes, but those are divorced from finance, which is the actual realm of capitalism. In fact, I would argue that the red scare is more appropriate today than it was back then, when China was struggling to split one grain of rice among an entire village - now they're a genuine adversary which does threaten the market.

Regarding "wealth gaps", there is nothing wrong with your neighbour owning more wealth than you do, whether they worked for it or inherited it. The difference between Chinese wealth gaps and western wealth gaps is that the former is usually a direct result of long-term servitude to the party whereas the latter is a result of ingenuity at some point down the family tree. In the former case that wealth is stolen, in the latter it is earned and owned, sometimes across generations. In both cases it doesn't belong to you, but only the former case is objectionable.
 

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Capitalism is an apolitical system of fair exchange of goods and services, the backbone of which is private enterprise. It has nothing to do with how a country operates on a governmental level - in fact, trade can operate in the absence of government, but a modern government, particularly one with said safety nets, cannot operate without trade.
You look at lobbying, campaign finance, and who gets elected to office, it all traces back to capitalism and capitalist influence. At least in the US, and doubly so since it was ruled that money = speech.

Why are you ascribing things capitalism didn't do to capitalism? As for the red scare, there was a lot to be afraid of, but not for any specific financial reason. Political reasons, yes, but those are divorced from finance, which is the actual realm of capitalism.
In many instances we staged military coups or started wars because a country had valuable resources or oil, and we didn't believe they'd be open to trading those things under a communist or socialist government. Basically we only let other peoples be self-determinate throughout history when the US had nothing to gain from them. Capitalism and most relatively recent examples of imperialism go very much hand-in-hand.

Regarding "wealth gaps", there is nothing wrong with your neighbour owning more wealth than you do, whether they worked for it or inherited it. The difference between Chinese wealth gaps and western wealth gaps is that the former is usually a direct result of long-term servitude to the party whereas the latter is a result of ingenuity at some point down the family tree. In the former case that wealth is stolen, in the latter it is earned and owned, sometimes across generations. In both cases it doesn't belong to you, but only the former case is objectionable.
Oligarchy is always objectionable, and nobody "earns" hundreds of dollars per minute. It's simply given to them by a broken system.
 

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You look at lobbying, campaign finance, and who gets elected to office, it all traces back to capitalism and capitalist influence. At least in the US, and doubly so since it was ruled that money = speech.
Politicians are corrupt regardless of the economic system adopted by the society in question. Corruption and "lobbying" predates capitalism and existed both in feudal and communist societies.
In many instances we staged military coups or started wars because a country had valuable resources or oil, and we didn't believe they'd be open to trading those things under a communist or socialist government. Basically we only let other peoples be self-determinate throughout history when the US had nothing to gain from them. Capitalism and most relatively recent examples of imperialism go very much hand-in-hand.
Coca Cola has never went to war with anyone, over oil or anything else. Neither did Nike or Nestlé. The US government went to war.
Oligarchy is always objectionable, and nobody "earns" hundreds of dollars per minute. It's simply given to them by a broken system.
That's an opinion. Reality demonstrably shows that people do in fact earn that much if their enterprise, that they had built from the ground up, is of significant scale. Jeff Bezos is an absurdly rich man because he had a good idea, opened a website and started selling books online, allowing customers to buy direct instead of relying on book stores which are never adequately stocked, don't allow you to shop for the best deal or purchase Pre-owned copies. This idea translated broadly across many industries, and multiplied his initial investment. Bill Gates isn't a billionaire because he stole money from anyone or went to war - he's a billionaire because he cobbled computers together in his garage with a bunch of his buddies at what happened to be the perfect time in history. They were smart enough to fill in newly created gaps in the economy, and they were good at it, so they dominated them, arguably to everyone's benefit. Some would say they were blessed, I would say they worked for every penny they own - you just don't like the fact that they have more pennies than most (jealousy) or that they earn more than you think they should (envy). The systems you propose as alternatives are inherently immoral since they are all rooted in taking what doesn't belong to you and giving it to others without consent. You are the aggressor in that kind of scenario.
 
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Xzi

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Politicians are corrupt regardless of the economic system adopted by the society in question.
So you put rules and regulations in place to keep them in a box, same as you have to do with corporations. If the path of least resistance in capitalism is always corruption, then that's a major flaw of the system.

Coca Cola has never went to war with anyone, over oil or anything else. Neither did Nike or Nestlé. The US government went to war.
A lot of stonks always go up when we start a new war. And Nestle is not a good example to use, they steal water from people worldwide (very often indigenous people).

The systems you propose as alternatives are inherently immoral since they are all rooted in taking what doesn't belong to you and giving it to others without consent.
Sounds like capitalism is inherently immoral then, seeing as it takes value generated by actual workers and redistributes it to white-collar layabouts and middlemen.
 

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So you put rules and regulations in place to keep them in a box, same as you have to do with corporations. If the path of least resistance in capitalism is always corruption, then that's a major flaw of the system.
If politicians you elect are for sale, you can tar and feather them. Capitalism didn't do that.
A lot of stonks always go up when we start a new war. And Nestle is not a good example to use, they steal water from people worldwide (very often indigenous people).
This is a huge misconception. The market loves stability, the only stocks that directly benefit from conflict are weapon manufacturers, and they tend to benefit when the conflict is far away from home only. The ticker going up is not a gross benefit when the currency plummets. Regarding water, "indigenous people" have no claim on resources. They don't "own" that water, it's under the purview of the state.
Sounds like capitalism is inherently immoral then, seeing as it takes value generated by actual workers and redistributes it to white-collar layabouts and middlemen.
Workers are compensated for their (fairly miniscule) contribution to the endeavour. Coincidentally, their compensation directly correlates with their level of contribution. The person who designs the next iPhone gets paid more than the worker putting it together - rightfully so, as the worker wouldn't have anything to put together without said design. The person above the designer gets paid more than the designer because it is their direct responsibility to create and maintain an environment in which such a product can be designed. Scales up and down. To throw you a bone, capitalism itself, broadly speaking, doesn't care about what is or is not moral. It's only fair, consensual and based on value and merit.
 

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If politicians you elect are for sale, you can tar and feather them. Capitalism didn't do that.
Corruption wasn't born entirely of capitalism, no, but capitalism does seem to have a nasty habit of making corruption the norm. Boiling the frog, as it were.

To throw you a bone, capitalism itself, broadly speaking, doesn't care about what is or is not moral.
Precisely, capitalism is dehumanizing by design. Capitalists don't view people as individuals or according to their needs, only as commodities to be bought, sold, and traded. FDR managed to extend America's shelf life by probably fifty years with the New Deal, but without a second bill of worker's rights, I seriously doubt this country survives to three hundred years (2076). Either fascism takes control, a populist revolution happens, or climate change causes a breakdown of society and borders.
 
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Workers are compensated for their (fairly miniscule) contribution to the endeavour. Coincidentally, their compensation directly correlates with their level of contribution.
False. Contribution does not equal your pay. Your not paid your full value.

If you were paid your full value, the company would go even. simple as that. the money they get comes from taking parts of your value, your time and labor and what you provide. and extracting that.


Walmart front end would be a large example of that. All those workers there? paid 12.50 at least at the Walmart here. That is completely and utterly bullshit. The amount of value they add is far more than that 12.50 an hour. I'm not just talking cashiers. Self checkout hosts as walmart calls them. Who both work as a cashier, and the self checkout machines. Which have a multitude of ludicrous responsibilities, such as trying to keep an eye out for people stealing shit with multiple blind spots because of poor design layout. Multiple times has someone tried stealing a full cart worth of shit 200 dollars and more.

Multiple angry customers who scream and yell at their face, or even better. (since I worked as a Walmart employee) at my Walmart, there was a man who got so pissed, he punched the screen of the machine, breaking through the touch layer entirely, so you have to react to scenario's you wouldn't even have EXPECTED to see..
that Walmart likes to place you everywhere. Your treated like rubbish by the managers, archaic rules that doesn't make any sense other than to be obtuse.
For example, I had already cleaned my station. I already refilled my bags, I was for the time, put onto the register.
There was few customers as it was getting close to closing time here. where 11pm no more customers are really allowed so about say. 10:30. So, given that I had already did everything in my area. I zoned, I cleaned, off not just my belt but also the bag rack. So, I got on my phone, I think it's reasonable that if there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING going on, which where I was, there was little to no customers, I heard from a co-worker that there was about 10 customers in the store. So I believe you should be able to have a little break, and not just stand around and well, I guess imagine some sort of movie in your head idk or stare into blank space like a robot.


Team lead comes in, screams at my face, getting pissed that I was on my phone, which to be clear of what I was doing, I was reading a comic, not even playing a game or something stupidly intensive, and then told me that I wasn't even supposed to have my phone ON MY PERSON. but put it into one of the lockers, which not a single person in management has ever TOLD me that. Another situation, I'm on self checkout GM side. it's around 9. at my store at 10, the gm selfcheck out closes. The floor is brutal, no amount of gel cushion on your feet is going to fix it. And given that again, no one was around. I sat down. Is it lazy for me to want to sit down when NOTHING IS HAPPENING? Same thing happened, got screamed and yelled at.
So Instead of sitting down, I stand on the balls of my feet, and crouch in a somewhat awkward sitting position so I don't count as "sitting" which, I never got a complaint for that. However I'm not going to tell you it's even remotely comfortable.

And I highly doubt Walmart is the "only one" who does this kind of archaic rules or make employees fit multiple tasks, even if it wasn't part of their job description. I don't remember signing up for cart pushing, and I definitely don't remember signing up for being the garbage man, taking out every single registers garbage.

Edit: as a sidenote encase someone tries to say "but your lazy, just stand more often. you must be out of shape" I walk from and to work, 26 minutes everytime I go to work, I also don't have a car, so all my options is walking. and that's me speedwalking over there. If I was walking a normal speed (according to google) be about roughly a 40 minute walk. I have no problems with walking long distances or being up right for extended periods of time. I've never felt sore. Walmart's floors? that was the first time in a long time where I actually got pain stepping around for extend periods of time.





Also I have to ask what is the point of the capitalist system? Like WE MADE this system. And when I say, I mean other human beings right?
So... Why do we have a system that intrinsically devalues work? Like no really. Take cleaning. Some may say "we'll it's just a starter job, so it should pay less" but that's extremely dumb for a multitude of reasons. The first is that at least in the united states climate, and the lack of proper minimum wage. Those wages are not exactly livable. Yes, I know that barely surviving pay check to pay check is "livable" but it really isn't. livable should provide at least decent comfort. Because otherwise, well, financial stress, along with not being able to pay surprise issues they may come up. Such as needing to call a plumber, or maybe needing someone to fix your roof, or some other reason.
Second problem. By inherently having a hierarchy. Those who generally enjoy their job, such as cleaning. Don't stick with it. Because it doesn't pay enough. Which means they move to other jobs, jobs they likely will not like. Because it pays more. Creating essentially a vacuum where people don't get the jobs they want
because effectively money said so.
So essentially humanity is in this endless cycle over a made up concept. That essentially chooses who lives or who dies. Or, who gets to do better, in life, and the other suffer. And the capitalist system, invertible reaches it's end game, where we are now. Where there are very VERY few winners. and the rest, is just loosers by start. Until very few hold most of the worlds wealth, and the rest suffers. I don't see a point in that kind of system. Getting money, isn't intrinsically valuable. It's only valuable because your life depends on it, and the amount of propaganda spewed out about money. About how money will make you happy, or how those people who make a lot of money donate to charities and are somewhat decent people, despite the fact it's a drop in the ocean, and also often into companies and business they made to look good.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And then some say "well you should be responsible for you" and have a rugged hyper individualist mindset. which I say bull to that as well. Humans have by default are a social species. This economic system plays completely against that. Human life is mostly co-op. It is not meant to be survival of the fittest between members. And capitalism doesn't reflect that, and it doesn't follow our natural desires. I can prove that with the internet. The internet, if there wasn't worry about paying for a sever every month. Is inherently socialist or even I would argue communist. People provide what they can, take what they need. If someone in some niche community asked for a specific image or file. 9/10 out of 10. Another person just provides it.
 
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Viri

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After the collapse of the USSR, poverty and unemployment skyrocketed the following years. I'm not sure what part of this can be seen as "failure", really.
They lost their empire. There's a reason why most of the former Warsaw Pact countries would never want to re-join.
 
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SG854

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False. Contribution does not equal your pay. Your not paid your full value.

If you were paid your full value, the company would go even. simple as that. the money they get comes from taking parts of your value, your time and labor and what you provide. and extracting that.


Walmart front end would be a large example of that. All those workers there? paid 12.50 at least at the Walmart here. That is completely and utterly bullshit. The amount of value they add is far more than that 12.50 an hour. I'm not just talking cashiers. Self checkout hosts as walmart calls them. Who both work as a cashier, and the self checkout machines. Which have a multitude of ludicrous responsibilities, such as trying to keep an eye out for people stealing shit with multiple blind spots because of poor design layout. Multiple times has someone tried stealing a full cart worth of shit 200 dollars and more.

Multiple angry customers who scream and yell at their face, or even better. (since I worked as a Walmart employee) at my Walmart, there was a man who got so pissed, he punched the screen of the machine, breaking through the touch layer entirely, so you have to react to scenario's you wouldn't even have EXPECTED to see..
that Walmart likes to place you everywhere. Your treated like rubbish by the managers, archaic rules that doesn't make any sense other than to be obtuse.
For example, I had already cleaned my station. I already refilled my bags, I was for the time, put onto the register.
There was few customers as it was getting close to closing time here. where 11pm no more customers are really allowed so about say. 10:30. So, given that I had already did everything in my area. I zoned, I cleaned, off not just my belt but also the bag rack. So, I got on my phone, I think it's reasonable that if there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING going on, which where I was, there was little to no customers, I heard from a co-worker that there was about 10 customers in the store. So I believe you should be able to have a little break, and not just stand around and well, I guess imagine some sort of movie in your head idk or stare into blank space like a robot.


Team lead comes in, screams at my face, getting pissed that I was on my phone, which to be clear of what I was doing, I was reading a comic, not even playing a game or something stupidly intensive, and then told me that I wasn't even supposed to have my phone ON MY PERSON. but put it into one of the lockers, which not a single person in management has ever TOLD me that. Another situation, I'm on self checkout GM side. it's around 9. at my store at 10, the gm selfcheck out closes. The floor is brutal, no amount of gel cushion on your feet is going to fix it. And given that again, no one was around. I sat down. Is it lazy for me to want to sit down when NOTHING IS HAPPENING? Same thing happened, got screamed and yelled at.
So Instead of sitting down, I stand on the balls of my feet, and crouch in a somewhat awkward sitting position so I don't count as "sitting" which, I never got a complaint for that. However I'm not going to tell you it's even remotely comfortable.

And I highly doubt Walmart is the "only one" who does this kind of archaic rules or make employees fit multiple tasks, even if it wasn't part of their job description. I don't remember signing up for cart pushing, and I definitely don't remember signing up for being the garbage man, taking out every single registers garbage.

Edit: as a sidenote encase someone tries to say "but your lazy, just stand more often. you must be out of shape" I walk from and to work, 26 minutes everytime I go to work, I also don't have a car, so all my options is walking. and that's me speedwalking over there. If I was walking a normal speed (according to google) be about roughly a 40 minute walk. I have no problems with walking long distances or being up right for extended periods of time. I've never felt sore. Walmart's floors? that was the first time in a long time where I actually got pain stepping around for extend periods of time.





Also I have to ask what is the point of the capitalist system? Like WE MADE this system. And when I say, I mean other human beings right?
So... Why do we have a system that intrinsically devalues work? Like no really. Take cleaning. Some may say "we'll it's just a starter job, so it should pay less" but that's extremely dumb for a multitude of reasons. The first is that at least in the united states climate, and the lack of proper minimum wage. Those wages are not exactly livable. Yes, I know that barely surviving pay check to pay check is "livable" but it really isn't. livable should provide at least decent comfort. Because otherwise, well, financial stress, along with not being able to pay surprise issues they may come up. Such as needing to call a plumber, or maybe needing someone to fix your roof, or some other reason.
Second problem. By inherently having a hierarchy. Those who generally enjoy their job, such as cleaning. Don't stick with it. Because it doesn't pay enough. Which means they move to other jobs, jobs they likely will not like. Because it pays more. Creating essentially a vacuum where people don't get the jobs they want
because effectively money said so.
So essentially humanity is in this endless cycle over a made up concept. That essentially chooses who lives or who dies. Or, who gets to do better, in life, and the other suffer. And the capitalist system, invertible reaches it's end game, where we are now. Where there are very VERY few winners. and the rest, is just loosers by start. Until very few hold most of the worlds wealth, and the rest suffers. I don't see a point in that kind of system. Getting money, isn't intrinsically valuable. It's only valuable because your life depends on it, and the amount of propaganda spewed out about money. About how money will make you happy, or how those people who make a lot of money donate to charities and are somewhat decent people, despite the fact it's a drop in the ocean, and also often into companies and business they made to look good.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And then some say "well you should be responsible for you" and have a rugged hyper individualist mindset. which I say bull to that as well. Humans have by default are a social species. This economic system plays completely against that. Human life is mostly co-op. It is not meant to be survival of the fittest between members. And capitalism doesn't reflect that, and it doesn't follow our natural desires. I can prove that with the internet. The internet, if there wasn't worry about paying for a sever every month. Is inherently socialist or even I would argue communist. People provide what they can, take what they need. If someone in some niche community asked for a specific image or file. 9/10 out of 10. Another person just provides it.
It's supply and demand economics.

Everyone (hyperbolic) trys to get a job at Walmart. It's a low skill job requires no higher learning education that's easy to get into. They can afford to pay you as little as possible, and if you leave its no sweat to them because they can easily replace you with someone else. The job at Walmart is easier compared other jobs that are harder. So people would rather flock to Walmart or McDonald's. Too much supply of people and little demand for them.

The harder the job the higher it pays, normally. They usually offer higher pay because no one wants to work them, so they need workers and need some way to incentives people to work there so they offer higher wages to attract more people. Little supply of people and high demand.

This really helps balance the economy and job distribution. Because some jobs are just horrible hardly anyone would want to work them. But we need people to work them or our society won't function correctly. They are essential work that needs to be done, someone has to do it, for our society. Like who the fuck wants to be a garbage man and has to smell shit all day and say i'm doing what I love. No one ever.

If all jobs had high pay, no one (hyperbolic once again) would work as garbage man, and we would have trash pilled up on the streets. The very principles of supply and demand in a free market economy helps allocate limited resources to where's its most needed. People are a limited resource and are allocated to jobs that are most needed not what people love to do for a living.
 
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Xzi

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If all jobs had high pay, no one (hyperbolic once again) would work as garbage man, and we would have trash pilled up on the streets. The very principles of supply and demand in a free market economy helps allocate limited resources to where's its most needed. People are a limited resource and are allocated to jobs that are most needed not what people love to do for a living.
I suppose that depends on your definition of "high pay." $15 an hour is not high. $21 an hour should be the minimum wage accounting for inflation and nothing else. That'd still be just above the poverty line on the East or West coast. And yes, garbage men should be paid even more than that because, as you said, the work they do is essential. But I'd rank fast food work as even more difficult/stressful overall, and the smell you come home with isn't much better either. Not to mention that it's one of the only options in food deserts, sadly making it essential for a lot of Americans.
 
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SG854

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I suppose that depends on your definition of "high pay." $15 an hour is not high. $21 an hour should be the minimum wage accounting for inflation and nothing else. That'd still be just above the poverty line on the East or West coast. And yes, garbage men should be paid even more than that because, as you said, the work they do is essential. But I'd rank fast food work as even more difficult/stressful overall, and the smell you come home with isn't much better either. Not to mention that it's one of the only options in food deserts, sadly making it essential for a lot of Americans.
Not all garbage men are paid the same. Different areas pay different wages. U.S. average is 44k. About 3.2k a month after taxes. Of course wages can range from 10k to 230k. Depending on area and other factors like hours worked.

On the west cost in the California area they are decently paid. San Francisco it's about 66k.


If you were to make a survey where would you rather work, McDonald's or Garbage man, vast majority will vote McDonald's.


Also I wouldn't say McDonald's is more stressful. Alot of times people throw crap in the garbage that they aren't suppose to when there are proper ways to dispose of them. And stuff leaks and ripped through the bags. A garbage man can have battery acid spill all over their face. Or toxic waste that wasn't suppose to be in the garbage bag, but people don't care about giving the garbage man a harder time in life and do whatever they please. Being around shit smell isn't pleasant either.

Alot of the crap garbage men go through hardly ever gets talked about because no one cares about the garbage man. No one has stopped to have a conversation with them.
 
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XDel

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Obviously a system based upon free will, free trade, de-regulation, as governed by a humane, wise, and just constitution, upheld by elected officials has always had far more success than a system governed by a self appointed few, unchallenged by a constitution or the voice of the proverbial people, and which suffocates true diversity and the bringing together of ideas that were brought to the table by people who had the drive to do so and the ability to pull things together and make them happen.

Of course though if you narrow it all down, it is in some ways a question of materialism vs materialism, or at least that is what it has become, for the market place has gone untamed for too long, and just like Communism, has robbed us of our spirit, our autonomy, and of metaphysical priorities, and eternal Truths. There were once restraints on it in order to protect mind, heart, soul, culture, and so on, but those were gradually unshackled long ago and wickedness has been normalized, from greed, to self pity, vanity, envy, uncontrolled lusts, deceit, and so on, thus enabling the system to be converted into a mass production machine that churns out temptations to lure us in and become acolyte zombies unto it's cause... ...never ending growth of power, wealth, influence, and control. AKA Communism and we are but passive pawns in their game, imitating what ever they give us to imitate, thinking and dreaming only what they put before us to think and dream, and our world views and values are alas conformed to that of EVERY MAJOR CORPORATION! Now that's punk rock!!!
 

Xzi

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If you were to make a survey where would you rather work, McDonald's or Garbage man, vast majority will vote McDonald's.
I'm not so sure about that. Garbage men get paid better, they don't have to deal with any customers/Karens or power-tripping middle managers, and the smell of stale fast food is hardly any better than garbage, as I mentioned before. Not to mention garbage men don't have to stand in the same place all day, they get to move around and work outside.

It's a moot point though, as any and all jobs must pay a living wage. If they don't, then we're just subsidizing those corporations with our tax dollars because their employees all end up on welfare/food stamps.
 
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Foxi4

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False. Contribution does not equal your pay. Your not paid your full value.

If you were paid your full value, the company would go even. simple as that. the money they get comes from taking parts of your value, your time and labor and what you provide. and extracting that.


Walmart front end would be a large example of that. All those workers there? paid 12.50 at least at the Walmart here. That is completely and utterly bullshit. The amount of value they add is far more than that 12.50 an hour. I'm not just talking cashiers. Self checkout hosts as walmart calls them. Who both work as a cashier, and the self checkout machines. Which have a multitude of ludicrous responsibilities, such as trying to keep an eye out for people stealing shit with multiple blind spots because of poor design layout. Multiple times has someone tried stealing a full cart worth of shit 200 dollars and more.

Multiple angry customers who scream and yell at their face, or even better. (since I worked as a Walmart employee) at my Walmart, there was a man who got so pissed, he punched the screen of the machine, breaking through the touch layer entirely, so you have to react to scenario's you wouldn't even have EXPECTED to see..
that Walmart likes to place you everywhere. Your treated like rubbish by the managers, archaic rules that doesn't make any sense other than to be obtuse.
For example, I had already cleaned my station. I already refilled my bags, I was for the time, put onto the register.
There was few customers as it was getting close to closing time here. where 11pm no more customers are really allowed so about say. 10:30. So, given that I had already did everything in my area. I zoned, I cleaned, off not just my belt but also the bag rack. So, I got on my phone, I think it's reasonable that if there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING going on, which where I was, there was little to no customers, I heard from a co-worker that there was about 10 customers in the store. So I believe you should be able to have a little break, and not just stand around and well, I guess imagine some sort of movie in your head idk or stare into blank space like a robot.


Team lead comes in, screams at my face, getting pissed that I was on my phone, which to be clear of what I was doing, I was reading a comic, not even playing a game or something stupidly intensive, and then told me that I wasn't even supposed to have my phone ON MY PERSON. but put it into one of the lockers, which not a single person in management has ever TOLD me that. Another situation, I'm on self checkout GM side. it's around 9. at my store at 10, the gm selfcheck out closes. The floor is brutal, no amount of gel cushion on your feet is going to fix it. And given that again, no one was around. I sat down. Is it lazy for me to want to sit down when NOTHING IS HAPPENING? Same thing happened, got screamed and yelled at.
So Instead of sitting down, I stand on the balls of my feet, and crouch in a somewhat awkward sitting position so I don't count as "sitting" which, I never got a complaint for that. However I'm not going to tell you it's even remotely comfortable.

And I highly doubt Walmart is the "only one" who does this kind of archaic rules or make employees fit multiple tasks, even if it wasn't part of their job description. I don't remember signing up for cart pushing, and I definitely don't remember signing up for being the garbage man, taking out every single registers garbage.

Edit: as a sidenote encase someone tries to say "but your lazy, just stand more often. you must be out of shape" I walk from and to work, 26 minutes everytime I go to work, I also don't have a car, so all my options is walking. and that's me speedwalking over there. If I was walking a normal speed (according to google) be about roughly a 40 minute walk. I have no problems with walking long distances or being up right for extended periods of time. I've never felt sore. Walmart's floors? that was the first time in a long time where I actually got pain stepping around for extend periods of time.





Also I have to ask what is the point of the capitalist system? Like WE MADE this system. And when I say, I mean other human beings right?
So... Why do we have a system that intrinsically devalues work? Like no really. Take cleaning. Some may say "we'll it's just a starter job, so it should pay less" but that's extremely dumb for a multitude of reasons. The first is that at least in the united states climate, and the lack of proper minimum wage. Those wages are not exactly livable. Yes, I know that barely surviving pay check to pay check is "livable" but it really isn't. livable should provide at least decent comfort. Because otherwise, well, financial stress, along with not being able to pay surprise issues they may come up. Such as needing to call a plumber, or maybe needing someone to fix your roof, or some other reason.
Second problem. By inherently having a hierarchy. Those who generally enjoy their job, such as cleaning. Don't stick with it. Because it doesn't pay enough. Which means they move to other jobs, jobs they likely will not like. Because it pays more. Creating essentially a vacuum where people don't get the jobs they want
because effectively money said so.
So essentially humanity is in this endless cycle over a made up concept. That essentially chooses who lives or who dies. Or, who gets to do better, in life, and the other suffer. And the capitalist system, invertible reaches it's end game, where we are now. Where there are very VERY few winners. and the rest, is just loosers by start. Until very few hold most of the worlds wealth, and the rest suffers. I don't see a point in that kind of system. Getting money, isn't intrinsically valuable. It's only valuable because your life depends on it, and the amount of propaganda spewed out about money. About how money will make you happy, or how those people who make a lot of money donate to charities and are somewhat decent people, despite the fact it's a drop in the ocean, and also often into companies and business they made to look good.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And then some say "well you should be responsible for you" and have a rugged hyper individualist mindset. which I say bull to that as well. Humans have by default are a social species. This economic system plays completely against that. Human life is mostly co-op. It is not meant to be survival of the fittest between members. And capitalism doesn't reflect that, and it doesn't follow our natural desires. I can prove that with the internet. The internet, if there wasn't worry about paying for a sever every month. Is inherently socialist or even I would argue communist. People provide what they can, take what they need. If someone in some niche community asked for a specific image or file. 9/10 out of 10. Another person just provides it.
You are paid precisely how much your work is worth - you don't decide that, the market does via supply and demand. Of course this arrangement has to be beneficial to both sides, otherwise the employer wouldn't be employing you - why hire someone at a personal loss? The great thing about capitalism is that it provides a benefit for both sides of the contract.
Corruption wasn't born entirely of capitalism, no, but capitalism does seem to have a nasty habit of making corruption the norm. Boiling the frog, as it were.

Precisely, capitalism is dehumanizing by design. Capitalists don't view people as individuals or according to their needs, only as commodities to be bought, sold, and traded. FDR managed to extend America's shelf life by probably fifty years with the New Deal, but without a second bill of worker's rights, I seriously doubt this country survives to three hundred years (2076). Either fascism takes control, a populist revolution happens, or climate change causes a breakdown of society and borders.
Communist countries are significantly more corrupt by any objective metric, primarily due to scarcity, but also due to a larger degree of concentration of power in the hands of few select individuals. The economy of a communist country is (on paper) literally centralised - one or two guys at the top decide who are the haves and who are the have nots.

People are people after work - at work they have contractual obligations that they fulfil for a mutually agreed upon compensation. I don't care about your fee fees - if I pay you to do X during the day, I expect X to be done by the end of said day, otherwise I wouldn't be paying you.
 

SG854

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I'm not so sure about that. Garbage men get paid better, they don't have to deal with any customers/Karens or power-tripping middle managers, and the smell of stale fast food is hardly any better than garbage, as I mentioned before. Not to mention garbage men don't have to stand in the same place all day, they get to move around and work outside.

It's a moot point though, as any and all jobs must pay a living wage. If they don't, then we're just subsidizing those corporations with our tax dollars because their employees all end up on welfare/food stamps.
Stale food is in the garbage lol. It gets thrown in there. Tons and tons of stale rotten food that has been sitting for days in the garbage bags that garbage men have to pick up.

Garbage men have to smell stale food all day, while McDonald's employees only have to deal with it when they throw out the trash.
 
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Foxi4

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I'm not so sure about that. Garbage men get paid better (...)
Have you ever wondered why this low-skill job that requires almost zero experience and minimal training pays this well? Because there are no takers. There's a large demand for garbage men, but few people want to rummage through garbage for a living at odd hours of the day which, naturally, comes at a risk of contracting various diseases, encountering vermin or injuring yourself, not just with the garbage you pick up (you'd be surprised what people throw out in unmarked garbage bags - think sharps) but also the equipment (trash compactors do what it says on the tin, and you can fall off the truck). You know for a fact that having to choose between the two, most will pick a clean kitchen over dirty rubbish bins, hence the difference in wage.
 
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