Hardware 3DS Potenital!

[KingVamp]

I think it's time for Iwata to go home. He is bringing Nintendo downhill since the Wii.

Pip'
is that a joke or just a troll ?

I am serious. Last game I played on my Wii is Conduit 2. And I only use it for WiiMC. And the lack of features on the 3DS is just another proof.

Pip'

Lack of features, such as?

QUOTE(prowler_ @ Aug 12 2011, 03:05 PM) QUOTE(sadak5 @ Aug 12 2011, 04:36 PM)

As the 3DS is receiving a port of Tales of the Abyss, I think it has te power for PS2 games at last (a port of .hack GU will be great!!!)

I would class it more as a demake, same as the MGS 3DS game.

First MGS as of now is on par.

Second, how is Tales of the Abyss a demake?

 

[chauffler]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PICA200 Wikipedia has some nice user friendly specs (its not shader pipelines, micro architecture and other crazy stuff) "Full-scene anti-aliasing (2x2)" really nice
"shadow" shadows make games look really good. It has mip map and bi linear filtering thats ok most consoles don't use anisotropic filtering that much but its a feature I really like. "procedural texture" I don't know that much about this one but it sounds like it will make up for the lack of VRAM on the 3ds

 

[Shuji1987]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PICA200 Wikipedia has some nice user friendly specs (its not shader pipelines, micro architecture and other crazy stuff) "Full-scene anti-aliasing (2x2)" really nice
"shadow" shadows make games look really good. It has mip map and bi linear filtering thats ok most consoles don't use anisotropic filtering that much but its a feature I really like. "procedural texture" I don't know that much about this one but it sounds like it will make up for the lack of VRAM on the 3ds

Well, if I would compare that to my 3D software, that would mean being able to create textures without UV-maps (and thus removes the need of loading tons of textures in memory or straining CPU/GPU etc). This isn't done through the likes of UV-maps (plain images), but are made up on various settings already existent (through standard maps, but being able to tweak the majority of the settings to virtually be able to create any effect you want). I'll try to give you an example here:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2ljmdqf.jpg
(used a default preset on a box, just to show the purpose of it)

Now as you can see there are several procedural maps or types available which you can use as an overlay. You can use multiple overlays and tweak the settings of about any setting to create the desired effect you want. You can create any types of metal, wood, glass, rock, fabric or whatever you want!

Honestly, procedural textures being in this GPU makes me really excited about homebrew and what I can do with it!

I'm getting more and more excited about being able to homebrew for it. ^^

Also, in the wiki-link it states: Subdivison primitive. What exactly does this mean? Does it support subdivision polygons? Or should I read it at very primitive support?

p.s. I hope I made sense ;3

edit:
Take a look here too:
http://journal.mycom.co.jp/articles/2006/0...raph07/003.html

Sure it's japanese but scroll through the pictures. They showcase the GPU's capeability on procedurals. Nothing has been done with texturemaps, just tweaking one's and zero's, plain text, setting options etc (which as I said earlier reduces the strain on video memory enormously). Looks pretty neat.

 

[chauffler]

@Shugi1987 I don't have any idea what you are talking about but it sounds really intellectual so good job edit: I added you as a friend on the 3ds network my FC is 0516-7434-9379 add me DO IT NOW

 

[Shuji1987]

@Shugi1987 I don't have any idea what you are talking about but it sounds really intellectual so good job edit: I added you as a friend on the 3ds network my FC is 0516-7434-9379 add me DO IT NOW

Done m8, cheers. =D

However I wasn't trying to sound intelligent with that post. I was trying to explain it so everyone could follow it lol. Basically it means: Cost reductive, less time consuming (for artists), less strain on the GPU/CPU and possibly other components, no video memory needed for them, possibly more stunning then regular textures.

So overall just upsides to it.

 

[Deleted User]

It's spelt "po-ten-tial", dood.
And, unfortunately, we don't know what kind of games could be made for it yet. Probably all games.

 

[bonzobanana]

Interesting thread. While I'm loving the little 3DS I don't believe its very powerful and actually think the psp is more powerful but I'm talking about the cpu power and the ability to create fairly complex game worlds rather than gpu performance. I think its fair to say the gpu is superior to psp but the psp is still competitive.

The psp has two mips R4000 cores that can run at upto 333mhz which are good for somewhere between 1.0 and 1.2 dmips per mhz. I couldn't find a definite figure. That's upto 800 dmips performance admittedly at full speed. I can see game engines on the psp that really look like they are using that performance. This performance puts it betwen ps2 and gamecube in power which seems fair.

The 3DS has two 266mhz arm11s and I know its not confirmed as it was a developer leak but I reckon thats on the money. However all previous portable Nintendo's had 2 processors and one was for gaming and the other for the background operating system and networking/decrypting etc. The original DS had a main 66mhz arm and a second 33mhz arm for background tasks. The DSi had a 133mhz arm and I think either a 33mhz or 66mhz arm for background tasks. The 3DS has a 266mhz arm for background tasks. So unless Nintendo have changed the way they design their portables it has a single arm11 at 266mhz for games. This is capable of 1.18 dmips per mhz which equals 315 dmips. I know some will say the 3DS will use both arm cores for games but I don't believe this is possible as just doing network traffic and decrypting is very processor intensive and I think the 3DS has faster wireless and supports stronger encryption plus numerous other additional background tasks.

Clearly the 3DS has a more powerful gpu and there is no argument there. If all you are concerned about is the visual fidelity then the 3DS is superior.

That said I don't believe the Pica200 is some sort of super chip. Its designed for low cost set top boxes I believe. It only has 24bit colour which is fine for a handheld but consoles like the ps2 and original xbox have 32bit colour and can create more realistic scenes.

I think the 3DS is about dreamcast power and I'm happy with that. The psp is beyond ps2 in cpu terms just inferior graphically. Vita is a long way past original xbox but saying that the Vita only has 24bit colour graphics too.

The reason the 3DS is getting mainly ports of N64 games from Nintendo is surely obvious and that is its not easily capable of running gamecube games. Resident Evil Mercenaries is a visually impressive game but its so limited and suffers from frame rate issues. There are games on the psp that have far more impressive game engines than 3DS but don't visually look as polished as Mercenaries.

I don't know how easy the Pica200 is to program but Arm11's are incredibly well known and easy to optimise for now. In contrast the psp is a complicated design which takes some getting used to.

If you look at something like little big planet on the psp I think it shows a powerful console. It has to calculate a physics engine and the game is richly detailed and makes good use of the massive storage of a umd disc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU4WGD8kClY

Something like Motorstorm shows a huge amount of processing required for multiple vehicles and a.i in a far more open environment than normal road racers. Visually its still very acceptable. I question whether a game like this would be possible on 3DS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJrDTPAYqAs

With regard competition for resident evil this game offers a superior engine with a game rich in variety but shows the psp failing to match the character models of mercenaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kONeqFbTHyw

Monster Hunter again shows a sophisticated game engine but inferior graphics at times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98mSNK2UKqg

Lastly grand theft auto shows inferior visuals but a complex world being simulated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVi7RGjEf8o


Don't get me wrong I'm more than happy with my 3DS and I'm looking forward to Mario kart and Mario 3D but for me power is cpu power. I know the 3DS has more memory, a better gpu and of course the 3D feature but I still view the psp as more powerful purely because it can create more ambitous games. Many games of course that don't require as much cpu power will clearly be superior on 3DS.

I'm sure many will reply that the cpu power of the 3DS is unconfirmed but every indication I've seen shows a console with limited cpu power. Even fairly simple games are having frame rate issues. Its too widespread to be excused away as lazy programmers.

Still a fantastic console though but I'm expecting games to be basically DS level mostly with much enhanced graphics and 3D.

In summary the 3DS can create low resolution versions of modern graphics but in cpu terms dates back to the last century with regard home consoles (dreamcast).

Also not a criticism of the dreamcast which was absolutely fantastic and I still have one.

 

[koji2009]

You have to remember that you are comparing a system in it's infancy (not even 6 months old) to a system that's at the edge of it's lifespan. While the 3DS isn't necessarily light-years ahead of the PSP, I think the biggest problem is not the stats but rather devkit maturity and developer familiarity.

Take a look at any system and you'll see a major difference between first generation titles and later gen. Just look at the PSP for example, try comparing Metal Gear Acid to MGS Peace Walker and the differences right there are almost enough to question whether they are from different systems... I think the simple fact that the high end first gen 3DS games already looking on-par with mid to late range PSP games means that in a year or two we'll end up seeing games significantly better.

That said, only time will tell for sure, and there is no doubt in anyone's mind that Vita will make 3DS games look like poo... but then again, so did PSP to DS games and that didn't amount to a pile of beans last gen.

 

[Shuji1987]

I actually agree with Koji on this one lol. As he said, the specifications are basically unconfirmed/unknown. For all we know, the PICA200 may be custom tailored (though within the 200 series) and that still doesn't disclose anything about the CPU's found in the 3DS.

Also, you should take a look at Revelations. In this thread: http://gbatemp.net/t302647-resident-evil-r...ameplay-footage
Page 2 and 3 I posted some videos.

You don't see any frame drops in there which is just a demo. Sure Merc can have framedrops, but you should know that the game was just a test for developers @ capcom to see how they utilize the 3DS and therefor is a horrible example.

Only time will find out, but honestly I suspect it to be more powerful based on the things I saw and read.

 

[bonzobanana]

Time will tell but what you have written was said about the wii and little extra was ever achieved because the hardware was fundamentally weak. The PS3 fits your description completely. It has masses of power locked up in a strange design with a huge learning curve. The 3DS looks to me like a design that you could max out quite quickly. One arm11 cpu, fast memory and a decentish gpu. It looks like an evolution of the DS series with only a change in gpu from mali based to pica. The 3DS is meant to have huge memory bandwidth so it seems clear to me frame rate issues are due to cpu performance.

Don't get me wrong though I expect to see improvements in 3DS games of course but marginal improvements just like we have seen with the wii. Often with the wii the improvements were actually reducing features like textures to work with limitations of the console. I personally believe the 3DS has limited cpu power and this will limit the type of game that can be achieved. It wouldn't surprise me if the 3DS gets its own original Zelda game they base it on the Ocarina engine.

The biggest improvement for 3DS will probably be the boost in cartridge sizes later on.

 

[bonzobanana]

I actually agree with Koji on this one lol. As he said, the specifications are basically unconfirmed/unknown. For all we know, the PICA200 may be custom tailored (though within the 200 series) and that still doesn't disclose anything about the CPU's found in the 3DS.

Also, you should take a look at Revelations. In this thread: http://gbatemp.net/t302647-resident-evil-r...ameplay-footage
Page 2 and 3 I posted some videos.

You don't see any frame drops in there which is just a demo. Sure Merc can have framedrops, but you should know that the game was just a test for developers @ capcom to see how they utilize the 3DS and therefor is a horrible example.

Only time will find out, but honestly I suspect it to be more powerful based on the things I saw and read.

Clearly that game has some good graphics and mixes in some fmv to tell the story before going back to the game's own engine. I obviously haven't done a very good job of explaining myself, my point is the 3DS has a limited cpu. That game seems to have few characters interacting. It looks pretty limited. In fact it looks far more limited in scope than mercenaries where you had a lot of creatures attacking. This looks even less ambitious in that regard.

My point is that the 3DS while it can do visually nice things it can't create a rich detailed environment with lots of things happening in that environment.

What I would be looking from a advanced Resident Evil game would be going outside see the trees blowing in the wind, birds flying in the sky, sophisticated weather effects and a large number of zombies that attack in different ways.

The ps2 version of Resident Evil 4 has far more happening, 32bit colour and generally much more detailed environments. It goes indoor and outdoor, huge bosses etc. I don't know how the full version of Revelations compares but going by the two videos the ps2 game looks ten times better in gameplay.

I'm just making the point again the 3DS seems to have limitations set. Mercenaries was basically a minigame. I don't currently know the limitations of Revelations but I have to say it does look pretty limited.

[youtube]3aMlnsIwVh4[/youtube]

 

[Satirical]

Expect a professor layton game designed to have some puzzles to require 3D and some to require 2D, expect some puzzles to require the 3DS to have 3D on and the orientation of the 3DS upside down or rotated somehow, things like that, innovation.

Also expect 3 hour battery life HURR HURR HURR

 

[DiscostewSM]

How many people have forgotten that Capcom had a 3D version of Resident Evil 5 running on the 3DS? I'm not saying it was an exact port, but nonetheless, that should be an indication of what the 3DS is capable of.

 

[bonzobanana]

How many people have forgotten that Capcom had a 3D version of Resident Evil 5 running on the 3DS? I'm not saying it was an exact port, but nonetheless, that should be an indication of what the 3DS is capable of.

Surely the best indication of what the 3DS is capable of is whats actually available. Wouldn't Resident Evil 5 require a far more advanced engine than seen in Mercenaries and Revelations? If so why release Mercenaries and Revelations if these games use an inferior engine and are more simplistic?

My point is don't bank on much more sophisticated games being achieved. We may already be at 90% of maximum performance. The reason to buy a 3DS is the brilliant games that Nintendo themselves produce but I'm not sure games like MGS or Revelations are going to deliver a gaming experience that is competitive with ps2 let alone 360/PS3.

Thats just my opinion based on the leaked specification and what games have achieved so far but I'd be very surprised if I'm wrong, hope I am though.

 

[DiscostewSM]

How many people have forgotten that Capcom had a 3D version of Resident Evil 5 running on the 3DS? I'm not saying it was an exact port, but nonetheless, that should be an indication of what the 3DS is capable of.

Surely the best indication of what the 3DS is capable of is whats actually available. Wouldn't Resident Evil 5 require a far more advanced engine than seen in Mercenaries and Revelations? If so why release Mercenaries and Revelations if these games use an inferior engine and are more simplistic?

My point is don't bank on much more sophisticated games being achieved. We may already be at 90% of maximum performance. The reason to buy a 3DS is the brilliant games that Nintendo themselves produce but I'm not sure games like MGS or Revelations are going to deliver a gaming experience that is competitive with ps2 let alone 360/PS3.

Thats just my opinion based on the leaked specification and what games have achieved so far but I'd be very surprised if I'm wrong, hope I am though.

Like I said, I wasn't saying it was an exact port. They may have done the same things like they did when they ported SSFIV over to the 3DS. You can see it isn't the same as its PS3/X360 counterparts, but it still plays basically the same for the most part with less detail, right?

As far as the leaked information, I take anything IGN says with a grain of salt. Already part of that leak has proven to be false. (RAM was said to be 64MB in the leak, whereas it really has 128MB of RAM)

 

[bonzobanana]

How many people have forgotten that Capcom had a 3D version of Resident Evil 5 running on the 3DS? I'm not saying it was an exact port, but nonetheless, that should be an indication of what the 3DS is capable of.

Surely the best indication of what the 3DS is capable of is whats actually available. Wouldn't Resident Evil 5 require a far more advanced engine than seen in Mercenaries and Revelations? If so why release Mercenaries and Revelations if these games use an inferior engine and are more simplistic?

My point is don't bank on much more sophisticated games being achieved. We may already be at 90% of maximum performance. The reason to buy a 3DS is the brilliant games that Nintendo themselves produce but I'm not sure games like MGS or Revelations are going to deliver a gaming experience that is competitive with ps2 let alone 360/PS3.

Thats just my opinion based on the leaked specification and what games have achieved so far but I'd be very surprised if I'm wrong, hope I am though.

Like I said, I wasn't saying it was an exact port. They may have done the same things like they did when they ported SSFIV over to the 3DS. You can see it isn't the same as its PS3/X360 counterparts, but it still plays basically the same for the most part with less detail, right?

As far as the leaked information, I take anything IGN says with a grain of salt. Already part of that leak has proven to be false. (RAM was said to be 64MB in the leak, whereas it really has 128MB of RAM)

I'm sure I read that increased RAM was a decision made late in the day and that the prototypes/demo units had 64 megabytes. Its a valid point though as perhaps the cpu performance has been changed. I don't think it has though as I would of thought performance of games would have increased. If anything the demo units seem to run faster than the final units. I'd be very surprised if the cpus are any faster than 266mhz because the 3DS struggles so much with frame rates even for fairly basic games.

 

[DiscostewSM]

As do many games in a console's/handheld's infancy. Once the developers have a grasp on the system, how to best approach coding on it, yadda yadda yadda, things will pick up in terms of capabilities. It's happened with every console/handheld before it. While I believe it uses higher frequency CPUs than 266Mhz, even if it was clocked as such, there is still the capabilities of the architecture which would make it perform much better than a CPU of the same frequency but of an older architecture.

I doubt the demo units did run faster, as the hopes of developers would be crushed and we would certainly hear word about such a change. Plus, reducing the CPU performance with the kind of RAM it has (which is comparable to twice the capability of DDR2 RAM) would be rather silly.

 

[Shuji1987]

I really believe the 3DS is capable of a lot more then is shown now. Just look at games like Revelations and even DoAD.

I just got this game and from a designer point of view, this game really looks amazing. Detailed, vibrant and animated fighting stages along with very detailed characters and it runs very smooth. The transitions between area's in a stage goes very smooth as well, leading me to believe that the whole stage is rendered at the same time (there are no loading times in between nor are there pop-ups).

Also the detail found in stages is very impressing. Everything seems to be modeled even if they aren't given a prominent spot, but it gets you to appreciate the game even more. I seriously can't stop but looking at everything multiple times, simply because this game looks great. It shows no signs of lag and it plays smooth. 3D adds another depth to the game which makes this a must to have.

Also the power the 3DS can already display can be found during a lot of the cutscenes which are almost all realtime rendered (apart from a few CG cutscenes).

Anyways, if you haven't played this game, you really should! Even if you're not into fighting games. The amazing story and all of the options available in the game will keep you occupied for quite some time. Not to mention all the unlockable goods.

 

[chartube12]

I actually agree with Koji on this one lol. As he said, the specifications are basically unconfirmed/unknown. For all we know, the PICA200 may be custom tailored (though within the 200 series) and that still doesn't disclose anything about the CPU's found in the 3DS.

Also, you should take a look at Revelations. In this thread: http://gbatemp.net/t302647-resident-evil-r...ameplay-footage
Page 2 and 3 I posted some videos.

You don't see any frame drops in there which is just a demo. Sure Merc can have framedrops, but you should know that the game was just a test for developers @ capcom to see how they utilize the 3DS and therefor is a horrible example.

Only time will find out, but honestly I suspect it to be more powerful based on the things I saw and read.

Clearly that game has some good graphics and mixes in some fmv to tell the story before going back to the game's own engine. I obviously haven't done a very good job of explaining myself, my point is the 3DS has a limited cpu. That game seems to have few characters interacting. It looks pretty limited. In fact it looks far more limited in scope than mercenaries where you had a lot of creatures attacking. This looks even less ambitious in that regard.

My point is that the 3DS while it can do visually nice things it can't create a rich detailed environment with lots of things happening in that environment.

What I would be looking from a advanced Resident Evil game would be going outside see the trees blowing in the wind, birds flying in the sky, sophisticated weather effects and a large number of zombies that attack in different ways.

The ps2 version of Resident Evil 4 has far more happening, 32bit colour and generally much more detailed environments. It goes indoor and outdoor, huge bosses etc. I don't know how the full version of Revelations compares but going by the two videos the ps2 game looks ten times better in gameplay.

And the Wii version of RE4 looks even better. Meanwhile the 3DS is capable of shading tech and other things that the wii is not.

 

[FireGrey]

I bet it can run Crisis 2 at max settings