Hacking 3DS may spell end to Ninty's piracy woes.

[T3GZdev]

Nothing is impossible, it just takes time

has the DSi in DSimode been hacked yet?
are there any DSi homebrews out yet?

 

[Alex221]

I Think That The 3ds Will Be Hard Or Impossible To Hack.If It Does Get Hacked,The First Flashcard It Will Have Will Be A Supercard,Cause Its The Best Card Yet And If It Can Be Updated To Work On Dsi Then I Think You Can Update It To 3ds,But It Will Take Time.

 

[monkat]

1) Yes or No? Are there more people in the game industry due to pirating?
Depends on what you are talking about. If you're asking if more people play more games, then yes. If you're talking about people actually contributing (developing for) to the industry, that is indeterminable (thus rendering this question...moot?), but probably no. Ask a dev why they got into the industry, and they won't say "Piracy!"
2) Yes or No? Millions are spent on commercials, the function of a commercial is to let people know of their product. If you answered yes on question 1, doesn't pirating essentially do the same thing?
A. Yes, of course that much is spent on commercials. B. No. Although it can function that way, almost none of the time will it contribute towards people buying the game. A more useful form of the same thing are demos at Nintendo Kiosks and demos at Best Buy or what-have-you.
3) Yes or No? If you were to pirate an old NES game TODAY (God dammit I can't stress how much I mean today), does that developer lose money?
Depends on how you're asking the question. The developer will not lose money because it was pirated, but they will not gain either (this is a different topic, I'm talking about modern piracy, but I think VC itself is a way to steal a cheap buck from us and from the N64 past it's "ok"). You see - economics works like this: One entity creates a product that the population desires. The population then spends money on it, so that that entity has money to spend on the goods and services that the buyers provide.
4) Yes or No? Imagine you are in a scenario where you have never played anything Final Fantasy. TODAY you pirate Final Fantasy I on the original NES. You enjoy the game so much that you decide to look into the Final Fantasy series. If you answered question 3 yes, does Nintendo has potential profits from 'pirating'?
Uhm....(aside from my side-note in the previous question about modern vs. legacy piracy) not really...Square Enix has a chance, though. But more than likely, the pirate would just pirate again. I know these claims sound very baseless, and they are, I don't have any statistics with me, but look at all of the posts on GBAtemp. "How many games do you have?" "Everything on the internet!"
5) Yes or No? Can the same scenario occur with other games maybe not in a series? Given the millions of people who play games is there not a possibility of the scenario happening for an arbitrary game in an arbitrary genre?
Absolutely. But the industry is so going to turn a net (meaning after the already established sales in this case) profit from the people who tried-then-bought after the deficit of pirates.
6) Yes or No? If enough time passes by, will Nintendo DS games fit that category as question 3? Such that will a developer lose money if they pirate a DS game after a given time?
Absolutely - flashcards for the DS will be acceptable and not hurt anyone in a few years (after 3DS backwards compatibility ends)
7) Yes or No? The ability to pirate is not free, such that hardware costs of consoles. Does there exist a scenario where someone who had no plans to buy a NDS but instead bought one because they can pirate games?
Absolutely, and it does happen. Unfortunately, I, as well as most others, also enjoy 3rd party titles.
8) Yes or No? Continuing on from question 7, does not Nintendo make profit in scenario 7?
Nintendo? Sure - on each console sold, however they pour tons of money into game development that they aren't getting their dues for. Also remember 3rd parties.
9) Yes or No? Has Nintendo ever brought up perfectly valid points as seen in questions 1-8 when talking about piracy?
Have they ever brought it up in a press conference? No. Do they send out free demos online for the purposes you're describing? Yeah. Do retailers offer in-store demos? Yeah.
10) Yes or No? Considering disillusioned is an opinion based on some reference points. Do you think there exists the possibility that maybe developers such as Nintendo are more disillusioned than pirates?
That doesn't really have anything to do with anything.

If you answer No to any of the question above, at least take half a second to come up with a valid argument or better yet a proof to why not.

Holy hell, long spacious post is long and spacious. Answers are bolded.

 

[Zetta_x]

I think you missed my point.

I wasn't saying that pirating ultimately leads to developers financial gains. I was saying that pirating offers its share of benefits. Whether or not these benefits outweigh the net loss from pirating cannot be determined especially by a single individual like me. However, that implies there exists a possibility that the benefits of pirating outweigh net losses even if it is a small one given the unpredictability of data. If you read through the questions above, you will indeed see that there exists benefits to developers by pirating. I came up with those on the spot, imagine how much I did not come up with.

 

[tatripp]

I remember them saying that the dsi would be incompatible with flash carts and i think it was for a little bit in japan for a while. When I got the system about a week after the release date, i already had a working flash cart.

 

[Veho]

2) Yes or No? Millions are spent on commercials, the function of a commercial is to let people know of their product. If you answered yes on question 1, doesn't pirating essentially do the same thing?
No.

I would have answered the first question with "no" but since there's only anecdotal evidence to "prove" either side, I'm going to say "maybe" to number one, and "no" to number two.

Commercials are there to inform people of the existence of a product, paint it as desirable, and make people want to buy it. That's a different marketing strategy entirely. Donationware is a marketing strategy too, but it only works when the initial investment is relatively small, which really can't be said for games on consoles. Sure, some people might decide to buy the game afterwards to support the developers, but any publisher would gladly lose the portion of the market that might possibly, maybe, potentially decide to give them money after they've played the game, in favour of making people buy the game in order to try it in the first place.

QUOTE3) Yes or No? If you were to pirate an old NES game TODAY (God dammit I can't stress how much I mean today), does that developer lose money?

If there's a "Classics Collection" featuring that game out for current consoles, then yes. And pirating a console twenty five years later doesn't have the same impact as pirating brand new titles for current consoles. I'm sure developers won't mind people pirating X360 and Wii games twenty five years from now nearly as much as they do right now.

Piracy might offer some financial gain to publishers, in a very circumstantial way, but preventing piracy brings a much, much greater financial gain, and the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[TM2-Megatron]

Nintendo are losing alot of moneyz cause of this...

I'm sure they lose some, but not nearly as much as industry pundits estimate. I'd guess that many of the people who pirate can't afford to buy 95% or more of the games they do obtain illegally... and a good majority of the "pirates" who can afford it do buy those games they truly enjoy, and play a lot. Even that second group is unlikely to have bought every game they pirated, though, if piracy hadn't been an option. They would've stuck to buying the games they really wanted, which many already do.

QUOTE(ZeroTm @ Jul 13 2010, 01:31 PM) And I got one word for all who think that it will be cracked in a month or two: DSi

I don't think it'll be cracked anywhere near that quickly (maybe a year or two), however the DSi? Nobody gives a crap about cracking that; and that's the main reason why it hasn't been done.

What would be the true advantage to cracking DSi mode? I can only think of one, and at this late stage in the game it's a rather minor one... better homebrew. And even that's more-or-less pointless now that we have flashcarts with built-in processors to take advantage of... and the DSTWO SDK is going to be released publicly for homebrew programmers.

Any other real advantage to DSi mode? DSi-enhanced games can be run perfectly well on any of the current DSi flashcarts, and Nintendo made sure that any DSi feature those games might use isn't essential or particularly important to gameplay. In the year and 8 months that the DSi has been out, there have been a total of 2 DSi-exclusive cartridges. One in Japan, one in Europe, zero in North America... and 50% of those titles is a guaranteed shovelware POS that you wouldn't want to play on a flashcart even if you could. I have no idea about the Japanese title, but a single game out of the thousand+ that can be played just fine is completely irrelevent.

And finally, the real legitimate advantage of a DS flashcart is that it lets you carry around all your legitimately purchased games to play, without actually having to carry around dozens or cartridges with you everywhere you go. Cracking DSi mode might let you store DSi Ware on the microSD, it's true... but really, can't you already store multiple DSiWare titles on a DSi without having to rely on a flashcart? So really, why even bother cracking DSi mode? For a single, Japan-exclusive DSi cartridge? The ability to store DSiWare that you can already carry around in bulk on your microSD? I think not. Whereas cracking the DS and DS flashcarts are partially about ensuring the fair use isn't taken away from us, as consumers, cracking DSi mode and enabling its use on flashcarts would only promote piracy of DSiWare.

The 3DS, though... that will be worth cracking. None of the above things will be possible until it's done, so there'll actually be motivation to do so. Not to say it'll happen immediately, but I'm sure it won't take as long as the DSi's been around right now.

 

[Gnargle]

The thread title should have LOL jk Ninty have shit anti-piracy on the end.

 

[regnad]

Nothing is impossible, it just takes time

has the DSi in DSimode been hacked yet?
are there any DSi homebrews out yet?

If the piraters really wanted to, they could crack that system like a nut!

They just don't find the DSi mode interesting, or challenging, or worth the effort. Or there aren't enough people working on it, because there's nothing but shovelware available, and the homebrew possibilities are too lame. Or something.

That, plus they have to take the car in for an oil change, and they have to get some laundry done because it's really starting to pile up.

But it has nothing to do with successful anti-piracy! Nothing whatsoever! Don't let anyone tell you that!

 

[Zetta_x]

I continue to see blind accusations with piracy.

I wonder what Nintendo will be doing to implement this piracy protection at least whether it's harddware or software wise.

 

[Dimensional]

I continue to see blind accusations with piracy.

I wonder what Nintendo will be doing to implement this piracy protection at least whether it's hardware or software wise.

If it's hardware based, then it will most likely have a severe limitation: non-upgradable. Once it's in there, it's stuck in there for good, and there is no way of upgrading it without having to take it in for a trade-in. It would probably be very good at first, but then once someone bypasses that, it's bypassed for good.

If it's software based, then it is upgradable, but as someone said, if it can be read and written, it can be hacked. All someone has to do is find the code for the AP and constantly test it until it comes up with something that the AP either likes or the AP can't deny. The good part is the AP would then be able to be updated, meaning the new AP would have to be tested again.

So far, the DSi's AP itself will allow game headers that meet a certain checksum or something. But then a flashcart would have to have the proper hardware in order to support the right header, which so far would mean it would also have to have an upgradable firmware.

Only thing I can see that would be able to crack and use DSi mode and then 3DS mode would be anything from Datel, ie Action Replay, and the Supercard DS TWO because of it's onboard CPU. Action Replay because they always have a great track record. It's a cheat device, which it doesn't pirate, meaning Nintendo doesn't really have much of a reason to block. Supercard DS TWO's onboard CPU basically makes it it's own computer. All that would be needed is it to have a firmware upgrade to dynamically fool the consoles own AP, and it should be able to play in 3DS mode as well as DSi mode.

 

[Gnargle]

and it should be able to play in 3DS mode as well as DSi mode.

In theory.
I doubt, though. That's why I'm holding off on a SCDS2 - if it eneds up that it works with the 3DS, I'll get it. If not, then we wait until R4 3DS Revitalised (if it's called that, I win the internet

) and then the vast number of better flash cart that will come after it.

 

[mangaTom]

It really is fun when people argue on the ap on a system that not even out yet(Well that's the main purpose of this thread) but we really can't say for sure when we are still blind on it on so many aspects(the hard&firmware

). But one thing's for sure that this system will be cracked as far as we can see on it's hype and anticipation of the people.I'm sure the hacking community will find one way or another bypass the ap.(though I'm not really 100% sure

)

 

[KingAsix]

It really is fun when people argue on the ap on a system that not even out yet(Well that's the main purpose of this thread) but we really can't say for sure when we are still blind on it on so many aspects(the hard&firmware

). But one thing's for sure that this system will be cracked as far as we can see on it's hype and anticipation of the people.I'm sure the hacking community will find one way or another bypass the ap.(though I'm not really 100% sure

)

I agree. There will always be away around whatever they put up. Though I know nothing about hacking and all that good stuff, I do think that the 3DS will be a challenge to the hacking community. I can't wait, but either way I'm still getting a 3DS and buying some games anywho.

 

[gamefreak94]

DAmn people, this isn't Apple were talking about here!

 

[mangaTom]

Sometimes people resort to piracy(sometimes myself) because good games can't even reach our goddamn local store.For me,especially my place,the best way of reducing the piracy is the better distribution of games(not that our place is on the mountains,even pokemon HG/SS are sold here) for a better variety and selection.I mean not all people are that knowledgeable and nowadays internet scam is rampant and people are afraid to buy online especially me.Well that's my opinion only.BTW, increased localization is good too.

 

[RiderLeangle]

This sounds like a challenge.. Isn't this exactly what they said about the Wii? And the first DS?
DSi probably isn't hacked due to lack of care.. Hell, if it wasn't for the cameras for possible video recording and SD card slot I wouldn't care if it got hacked anyways.. There are only a handful of good DSiWare games and what do we get for DSi enhanced/exclusive games.. I think there were rumors of HG/SS were supposed to be DSi enhanced but I never really followed that.. Although at this point I'm just ranting now...

As for piracy itself? I would buy these games if I could but honestly I can't.. I can't afford them.. And besides that if it wasn't possible you couldn't have games modified enough that it would be warranted.. Hell.. Right now the disk in my Wii is a hack of Guitar Hero to have Japanese songs (since that's all I listen to), Granted the setlist was a major disapointment because only a handful of songs were that but still.. I'm ranting again..

As for the 3DS I think Homebrewers and Pirates would be very motivated, While it may take a couple months I'm sure they'll figure out something... hopefully IMO but I'm sure many people would disagree for Homebrew and Piracy being lumped into the same group...

Also.. Let's not call it Pirating.. Let's call it Ninja'ing... It's the exact same thing with a much cooler name!

 

[lostreverie]

I'd like to place a bet as well; put me in for 1-2 years.

Nintendo is going to put a lot into this. They will encrypt anything and everything to prevent another R4 scale scenario. I wouldn't be surprised if AP is put on individual games even before an exploit is found, just to make it that much harder.

The problem for Nintendo is going to be that there will be more demand for the 3DS to be hacked then, well, probably any system ever. In addition to freelance hackers, you're also going to have a lot of companies vying to be the next R4. It probably will only be half a year before the Supercard DSTHREE is promising to let you play any DS, GBA, or SNES on your 3DS, and you can bet they will be trying their hardest to get 3DS stuff working as well.

 

[Another World]

however the DSi? Nobody gives a crap about cracking that; and that's the main reason why it hasn't been done.

that’s just a silly statement from someone with an outside perspective. if only 98% of the users knew the truth for why some things have gone unreported and unreleased. loopy did publically announce that he cracked the encryption but would not release it for personal reasons.

that’s pretty much all i'll ever say in public.

on with the debate!

the scds2 is a nice idea but it remains to be seen what can be ported or coded to make use of the cpu. also let us not forget that the cpu is a battery hog, and that is only with gba games. imagine cps1/cps2, mame, psx, and other systems running on the scds2. before anyone thinks it, the scds2 is using the same cpu as the dingoo a320/330 and has 32mb of onboard ram. it is very feasible to assume that many good systems could be adequately emulated and more advanced systems could be attempted. the dingoo has a psx emu that is working although limited, i would expect to see the same attempts made on the scds2. however, many devs i've talked to about porting to the scds2 do not want to take the time due to the limited user base. most coders simply do not want to code a 2nd fork of their software which runs on 1 specific flash kit.

as for the dsi mode, yes homebrew is all that would benefit from it. but consider emulators running on the faster cpu with more ram! then consider that only a handful of people seem to have the skills or desire to code such emulators. that’s pretty much the general argument for the lack of a dsi hack, and the most well read argument.

the 3ds, what will the problems be with that system. what if the 3d causes seizures, vision problems, headaches, etc. i'm sure nintendo has a control group but you don't really know the long term effects of 10+ hours of gaming with a stereoscopic image on the brain. if it is hacked, how long will it take for homebrew authors to understand how to make use of the system and how long will it take for something useful to be coded? i don't want to play 100 snake clones in semi-shitty 3d, if you catch my meaning.

-another world

 

[FireGrey]

I'm getting pissed off right now...
NINTENDO SAID THEY WILL BOOST AP!!!AND THEY MEEN IT!!!
Some big companies are scared of putting games on the DS...
But the 3DS...If they have to they will call in the big guns, like make apple do the Anti-piracy, no matter how much money they will have to spend...And anyway, don't you guys remember that the 3DS automatically downloads information, they are obviously gonna make it auto-up-datable aswell.
For get it Ninjarers/Piraters whatever...Anyway...the 3DS will have games 1-2GB!!!
Would it be very nice to have a flashcart with only afew games and nothing else to fit?
PLEASE NINTENDO MAKE IT UNHACKABLE!
HACKING JUST RUINS ALL THE FUN, I KNOW THAT I HACK BUT STILL...THERE ARE OTHERS HACKING AND ITS JUST SO HARD, THIS IS SOMEONE WITH 3 R4s SPEAKING...

EDIT: AND IF THE 3DS WAS HACKED THEN SIMS 3, METAL GEAR SOLID, ETC...WON'T HAVE ANYMORE GAMES ON THE 3DS, THIS IS THE MAIN REASON I DON'T WANT IT TO BE HACKED