New Minecraft update removes references to creator "Notch"

Ev1l0rd · Mar 28, 2019

Nerdtendo said:
"It's okay to be white" and "Heterosexual celebration" are both valid opinions and aren't controversal in their own right.

Look up the concept of a dogwhistle argument. Basically it's an argument usually used to sugarcoat a worse argument.

(ie. Most people would say a hetero pride is stupid and that we don't actually need one. Ergo, a gay pride is stupid as well based on this reasoning. It's a subtly homophobic argument that is presented as a non-controversial opinion.)

SecureBoot · Mar 28, 2019

Ev1l0rd said:
Look up the concept of a dogwhistle argument. Basically it's an argument usually used to sugarcoat a worse argument.

(ie. Most people would say a hetero pride is stupid and that we don't actually need one. Ergo, a gay pride is stupid as well based on this reasoning. It's a subtly homophobic argument that is presented as a non-controversial opinion.)

Interesting. Personally, I've seen the straight pride argument specifically as a defense reaction. "The gays are celebrating their gayness so that must mean being straight is insignificant and I'm not as important in society because I'm not being celebrated for being 'vanilla'" is kinda the mindset I've seen behind the straight pride concept.

What you're saying on dogwhistle is something I've never considered before. Definitely an interesting addition. I'll remember that in the future

FAST6191 · Mar 28, 2019

Ev1l0rd said:
Look up the concept of a dogwhistle argument. Basically it's an argument usually used to sugarcoat a worse argument.

(ie. Most people would say a hetero pride is stupid and that we don't actually need one. Ergo, a gay pride is stupid as well based on this reasoning. It's a subtly homophobic argument that is presented as a non-controversial opinion.)

I usually understood a dog whistle to be a phrase uttered that appears innocuous but to those in the know it acts as as a signal. Nothing about sugar coating anything -- that would either be something in the strawman realm, or maybe some kind of other disingenuous argumentation tactic. If he walked back the pride thing then we are left with the OK to be white one and I am still at a loss as to why that is troubling. Bit redundant from where I sit (I thought we were all mostly operating under the "content of your character and actions, not some genetics" idea) but redundant words are everywhere in the world.

I also struggle to see what your problem with the MGTOW thing is as a general concept. It is not something I have gone as deep into as some other things but I have seen quite a few things from quite a few people pushing its virtues as it were. There is no unifying philosophy, and some are seemingly mutually incompatible, but at its heart it would seem to be some people looking out into the world and deciding the whole relationship thing is not a great plan at this point in existence and either skipping it or trying to convince others of the merits of said plan. Certainly some people I saw espousing it have some views I find unpleasant but some others seemed to have reasonable arguments and advocated against hurting people.

aos10 · Mar 28, 2019

Ev1l0rd said:
To anyone not fully getting it or who might be thinking that whatever claims Notch is making are being exagerrated, this is the guy that did the following things:

Say QAnon is right (the conspiracy idiot).

Can't say that the Nazis were bad people (instead he went on a tangent about how modern day Nazis don't exist).

On international womens day managed to tweet that "women should belong in the kitchen" and an entire tweet chain that is blatantly transphobic as well as believing it's celebrating body dysphoria and that "trans people are using the wrong pronouns" (as in -> you should misgender them).

To put it lightly: The man is an MGTOWer (Men Going Their Own Way (although personally I'd expand it to Men Going Their Own Way Yet Being Strangely Concerned As To What Women Think)), a transphobe and has issues condeming the fucking Nazis.

You can find all of these on his twitter, I can cite tweet chains if staff here are okay with it.

The reason this is relevant is because his name is still extremely prominently connected to Minecraft, to the point where a couple of the startup messages specifically thanked Notch. Now let's say you're Mojang (from what I found this was a move by the devs, not a move by Microsoft) and you're starting to get flak because your ex-boss (who only made the initial version of your game but takes all the credit even though you've been doing much more work on it in the past several years and has already taken the lions share of the sale to Microsoft so there is already some resentment to him) is expressing views that at best are ignorant and at worst are supporting Nazism (note: I don't think Notch is a nazi, he's probably just incredibly stupid).

At that point, at least taking of the "Thank you for the game" message that is in the title screen is a start.

And it's nothing like Konami taking off Kojimas name of MGSV, in no small part because Notch is still credited, just no longer on the title screen.

tldr; fuck notch, good move.

thanks for the info, i only knew about when he said "women should belong in the kitchen", i mean is he even trying to be a troll? he is stupid and made fool of him self by this move.
it's like a 7-8 year old trying to troll on xbox live, it's pathetic, money does change the people after all.

Ev1l0rd · Mar 28, 2019

FAST6191 said:
I usually understood a dog whistle to be a phrase uttered that appears innocuous but to those in the know it acts as as a signal. Nothing about sugar coating anything -- that would either be something in the strawman realm, or maybe some kind of other disingenuous argumentation tactic. If he walked back the pride thing then we are left with the OK to be white one and I am still at a loss as to why that is troubling. Bit redundant from where I sit (I thought we were all mostly operating under the "content of your character and actions, not some genetics" idea) but redundant words are everywhere in the world.

Two things:

"It's OK to be white" is a campaign started by /pol/. They occasionally do this stuff to intentionally confuse the media (see also: trying to make the OK hand a white supremacy symbol). I shouldn't have to explain that /pol/ is a den of white supremacists and nazis right? Basically, the campaign was designed to "get the media up into a ruckus about saying it's ok to be white" and probably tons of "triggering the libs" as well, given how that seems to be their bread and butter. Basically it's a very disingenous statement that got it's startoff by some horrible people and it never kind of escaped that given it's well uh... /pol/, so saying it is more or less a dogwhistle for saying that /pol/s actions can be considered anywhere on the scale of "reasonable".
Notch has literally said and I quote him directly: "If we were allowed to discuss IQ differences between populations, there'd be fewer conspiracy theories." So... I don't think that he's running on the idea of "content of character and actions determine who you are".

FAST6191 said:
I also struggle to see what your problem with the MGTOW thing is as a general concept. It is not something I have gone as deep into as some other things but I have seen quite a few things from quite a few people pushing its virtues as it were. There is no unifying philosophy, and some are seemingly mutually incompatible, but at its heart it would seem to be some people looking out into the world and deciding the whole relationship thing is not a great plan at this point in existence and either skipping it or trying to convince others of the merits of said plan. Certainly some people I saw espousing it have some views I find unpleasant but some others seemed to have reasonable arguments and advocated against hurting people.

On paper it's "men who got rejected too much by women and now believe the solution is to do their own thing". In reality (see their subreddit specifically, they tend to be pretty decent litmus tests on what a community claims to be vis a vis what they actually are), they seem to have an unhealthy obsession with women getting their shit pushed in by other people.

Basically MGTOWers are incels-lite.

If you need a good place to start for at least having some idea, I suggest checking out Rationalwikis page on the "manosphere" (this is the collective term describing groups such as incels, The Red Pill and MGTOW as well as many other similar ideologies): https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Manosphere

petethepug · Mar 28, 2019

We all knew it was about time since they added realms, but why now is beyond me and its fidelity. Its like Microsoft just said get to work ...

SG854 · Mar 28, 2019

Ev1l0rd said:
Two things:

"It's OK to be white" is a campaign started by /pol/. They occasionally do this stuff to intentionally confuse the media (see also: trying to make the OK hand a white supremacy symbol). I shouldn't have to explain that /pol/ is a den of white supremacists and nazis right? Basically, the campaign was designed to "get the media up into a ruckus about saying it's ok to be white" and probably tons of "triggering the libs" as well, given how that seems to be their bread and butter. Basically it's a very disingenous statement that got it's startoff by some horrible people and it never kind of escaped that given it's well uh... /pol/, so saying it is more or less a dogwhistle for saying that /pol/s actions can be considered anywhere on the scale of "reasonable".

Notch has literally said and I quote him directly: "If we were allowed to discuss IQ differences between populations, there'd be fewer conspiracy theories." So... I don't think that he's running on the idea of "content of character and actions determine who you are".

On paper it's "men who got rejected too much by women and now believe the solution is to do their own thing". In reality (see their subreddit specifically, they tend to be pretty decent litmus tests on what a community claims to be vis a vis what they actually are), they seem to have an unhealthy obsession with women getting their shit pushed in by other people.

Basically MGTOWers are incels-lite.

If you need a good place to start for at least having some idea, I suggest checking out Rationalwikis page on the "manosphere" (this is the collective term describing groups such as incels, The Red Pill and MGTOW as well as many other similar ideologies): https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Manosphere

What matters less is where it started and more what the person is intending and the context of the situation when they say that. People are individuals and should be analyzed as individuals. Is this not the left's philosophy especially when it comes to racial issue and female issues. Not all Blacks and not all Women. This also applies to not all Men, Jews, MGTOW, and whoever else.

They could be using the it's okay to be white as a way of trolling people that take themselves too seriously to show how ridiculous some have gone off the deep end in their beliefs. George Carlin has a comedy bit and makes a good point about this. And I see many people using it in this way. We get a lot of that craziness from both sides, MGTOW, Feminists, Leftists, Right. Right now feminists are branching off from other feminists, one group calling themselves TERF feminst's, another intersectionalist, and are at odds with each other. TERF Feminist's (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) are exterminationist and eliminationist that advocate harm against trans, especially MtF trans because they were originally assigned male at birth. They are against them because they believe masculinity is toxic and men are the reason we have problems in society. So should we denounce all feminist's because of TERF feminists, and should we apply that same reasoning to MGTOW or Men's Rights activists?

About the IQ, I don't know his original intention, but I think we should talk about IQ differences between populations and why that is. And provide solutions to close the gap. If people avoid talking about it, and say we shouldn't look at it because its racist, then you'll never solve the problem.

MrHuu · Mar 28, 2019

This update seems to fix a big issue for some!?

Is it safe to let the kids play minecraft again now?

DarthDub · Mar 28, 2019

Wtf I love Notch now.

FAST6191 · Mar 28, 2019

Ev1l0rd said:
Two things:

"It's OK to be white" is a campaign started by /pol/. They occasionally do this stuff to intentionally confuse the media (see also: trying to make the OK hand a white supremacy symbol). I shouldn't have to explain that /pol/ is a den of white supremacists and nazis right? Basically, the campaign was designed to "get the media up into a ruckus about saying it's ok to be white" and probably tons of "triggering the libs" as well, given how that seems to be their bread and butter. Basically it's a very disingenous statement that got it's startoff by some horrible people and it never kind of escaped that given it's well uh... /pol/, so saying it is more or less a dogwhistle for saying that /pol/s actions can be considered anywhere on the scale of "reasonable".

Notch has literally said and I quote him directly: "If we were allowed to discuss IQ differences between populations, there'd be fewer conspiracy theories." So... I don't think that he's running on the idea of "content of character and actions determine who you are".

On paper it's "men who got rejected too much by women and now believe the solution is to do their own thing". In reality (see their subreddit specifically, they tend to be pretty decent litmus tests on what a community claims to be vis a vis what they actually are), they seem to have an unhealthy obsession with women getting their shit pushed in by other people.

Basically MGTOWers are incels-lite.

If you need a good place to start for at least having some idea, I suggest checking out Rationalwikis page on the "manosphere" (this is the collective term describing groups such as incels, The Red Pill and MGTOW as well as many other similar ideologies): https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Manosphere

I don't actually know much of /pol/ (never got into the chans thing) but I would still answer so? If easily outraged people get outraged it can be funny, and if indeed the videos we saw as a result were true then mission managed. Where it might have started could have had some bearing on some things but here I don't see the issue. The OK symbol thing was fucking hilarious, not least of all because I had seen that Malcolm in the Middle episode where they had the circle game a little while before that. If the media is inclined to fall for such stupidity (how much of it was debunked just by looking at it and maybe researching for 5 minutes?) and the ultimate victim is the media's credibility then troll away.

I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I don't know how much bearing it would have on things, certainly not enough to bother my man on the street test, and there is the nature-nurture thing to contemplate but seems like something that could be enquired upon. Though I would agree it would do little for conspiracy theories.

I heard it mentioned so I went and watched some 10-15 youtube channels from people based in various locations in the world and lots seemingly high levels of popularity in terms of subs, references from others and views, latest and most popular content, and had some wander into recommendations for a while, as well as a few PDFs of their books and books that percolated up through it all and websites recommended by said same. I would like to believe that gave me a reasonable grounding, though it is far short of the more in depth thing I have done in the past for others. Of those that self labelled as MGTOW then most of those at least were agreeable enough, though some had some thoughts and views I cared little for (same as everywhere really), so I guess we had difference experiences of the concept. A few seemed to enjoy schadenfreude when it pertained to women but stopped way short of condoning violence or similar. Some seemed to advocate for some kind of traditionalism (one of the things I was not a fan of in some) but others pushed back against that. I tend to find rationalwiki this last few years to have gone downhill somewhat compared to earlier days, and reading that the language they use is not terribly something I would expect from an impartial assessment of things. I am not sure I would conflate all the groups there though and expect it to be useful -- the incel bit (as in self described group, not just people that would struggle with such things) and mgtow bit had some fairly key differences, the issue of rejection (the latter seemingly not have rejection as much as relationships of theirs and those they observed going very sour) being key among those. Indeed the rationalwiki thing seems to categorise it all differently and call it a loose grouping.
Anyway it seems it is not the first time that your experience of things had come from reddit and mine from elsewhere and thus we got very different impressions. I find reddit a hole most of the time whatever interest I might have so tend to avoid it, and search engines do too so that is nice.

Deleted User · Mar 28, 2019

This thread is a perfect example of why you should keep politics out of video games. Hate the guy all you want but he still did make the game and deserves his few joke splash screens and references here or there kept in

FAST6191 · Mar 28, 2019

king_leo said:
This thread is a perfect example of why you should keep politics out of video games.

The politics in games business has me in several minds here, though first it seems, as ever, we need to have a definitions discussion*.

That said if you want to avoid overt political discussion, especially ham fisted discussions, then so be it. Probably not what I would go in for but not a concept without merit (plenty of things exist as simplistic framing, tests of some form of skill or reactions, or as means of almost mechanical relaxation and do just fine for it). To have it as a general rule to not do any political discussions though seems a bit limiting -- lots of art aims at making a statement or exploring a concept and to deny games the opportunity to do that... almost handing ammo to the "games can never be art" set. Games have proven they can do just fine in such explorations, and indeed I have enjoyed several. Some get done badly, sometimes astoundingly so, but so does everything.

*to start with there is the obvious "everything is political at some level" and framing can mean all sorts of things are condoned. Something like civilisation having it as a core mechanic that advancing down tech, taking over your neighbours... is good and how you "win" the game, as opposed to harmony with nature or something. If that is not a statement of political intent...

Ev1l0rd · Mar 28, 2019

FAST6191 said:
*to start with there is the obvious "everything is political at some level" and framing can mean all sorts of things are condoned. Something like civilisation having it as a core mechanic that advancing down tech, taking over your neighbours... is good and how you "win" the game, as opposed to harmony with nature or something. If that is not a statement of political intent...

It's actually suprising how many games are willing to make a lot of statements on a lot of things, but when confronted, the developers always end up not carrying it through to the end. ie. Detroit deals with a lot of concepts surrounding modern day racism and slavery (some might say poorly, I've never personally played it so I'll refrain from judgement), but when Quantic Dream was specifically asked about it, they said it was "just about robots".

Of course, if I were to apply Occams Razor, one might say that they don't have the spine because it might piss of some racists, but that's just me being me.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to not that this goes for AAA games mainly, indie devs tend to be more open about the political bent of their games.

TheMrIron2 · Mar 28, 2019

This is a weird one. On the one hand, Notch's Twitter is effectively littered with self-admitted shitposting and controversial opinions and it makes PR sense for Microsoft to distance themselves from him.

On the other hand, Notch is directly responsible for the game and Minecraft, in any manifestation, all goes back to Notch's work. I'm not sure what side I'm on.

Deleted User · Mar 28, 2019

FAST6191 said:
The politics in games business has me in several minds here, though first it seems, as ever, we need to have a definitions discussion*.

That said if you want to avoid overt political discussion, especially ham fisted discussions, then so be it. Probably not what I would go in for but not a concept without merit (plenty of things exist as simplistic framing, tests of some form of skill or reactions, or as means of almost mechanical relaxation and do just fine for it). To have it as a general rule to not do any political discussions though seems a bit limiting -- lots of art aims at making a statement or exploring a concept and to deny games the opportunity to do that... almost handing ammo to the "games can never be art" set. Games have proven they can do just fine in such explorations, and indeed I have enjoyed several. Some get done badly, sometimes astoundingly so, but so does everything.

*to start with there is the obvious "everything is political at some level" and framing can mean all sorts of things are condoned. Something like civilisation having it as a core mechanic that advancing down tech, taking over your neighbours... is good and how you "win" the game, as opposed to harmony with nature or something. If that is not a statement of political intent...

I 100% agree that games can be art and can delve into very meaningful topics, I worded what I said the first time poorly just to get a quick point across. Games should be able to explore anything they want and developers should be encouraged to use the medium however they want. I guess I should have said "keep politics out of gaming where it isn't warranted". A developers personal views shouldn't effect the quality or content of a game unless the developer himself chooses to include them. I'm terrible at wording what I mean, an example would be that I wouldn't take away someones Olympic record just because they have opinions that are deemed wrong in the current society nor would I even find it relevant to bring them up

DrayanoX · Mar 28, 2019

Meinkraft

xxNathanxx · Mar 28, 2019

I knew my collection of Pictures for Sad Children pictures would come in handy one day.

Joom · Mar 28, 2019

Why do people care about the opinions of someone that has no direct impact on them? How many here love Earthworm Jim? Its creator shares the same ideals, and was just banned from Twitter for merely saying "there's only two genders". Please end this outrage generation and tend to your own business. Unless these people are advocating violence and spewing legitimate hate speech, I don't see the problem. Rather, I see a bunch of ninnies shitting themselves over their own identity politics because they themselves are unable to be happy with who they are. If you're right with yourself, nobody's a bigot. And before anyone comes sabre rattling at me, you don't know me. I've struggled with my own identity extremes. Yet, I don't feel it necessary to pop a rage boner over any dissenting opinion because people are different and I can't expect empathy from someone that isn't dispositioned to deal with what I have. I also don't feel it necessary to force people to conform to my ideals because "muh feewings". Fuck this PR stunt, fuck politics, and fuck you. Get it out of my video game news.

SG854 · Mar 28, 2019

Joom said:
Why do people care about the opinions of someone that has no direct impact on them? How many here love Earthworm Jim? Its creator shares the same ideals, and was just banned from Twitter for merely saying "there's only two genders". Please end this outrage generation and tend to your own business. Unless these people are advocating violence and spewing legitimate hate speech, I don't see the problem. Rather, I see a bunch of ninnies shitting themselves over their own identity politics because they themselves are unable to be happy with who they are. If you're right with yourself, nobody's a bigot. And before anyone comes sabre rattling at me, you don't know me. I've struggled with my own identity extremes. Yet, I don't feel it necessary to pop a rage boner over any dissenting opinion because people are different and I can't expect empathy from someone that isn't dispositioned to deal with what I have. I also don't feel it necessary to force people to conform to my ideals because "muh feewings". Fuck this PR stunt, fuck politics, and fuck you.

What's ridiculous about 2 genders thing is that it has scientific consensus among sex researchers. They are banning people for following what the science says. I've read academic papers on congenital adrenal hyperplasia, prenatal testosterone in the womb, behaviors of new born babies, male female brain differences, thing vs people oriented behaviors, career choices, aspergers, they all point to gender is not a social construct, but you can't even say these things or they'll ban you. They are trying to control thought, research, and speech because it goes against what they believe in, things they believe in that has not much scientific backing.

Joom · Mar 28, 2019

SG854 said:
What's ridiculous about 2 genders thing is that it has scientific consensus among sex researchers. They are banning people for following what the science says. I've read academic papers on congenital adrenal hyperplasia, prenatal testosterone in the womb, behaviors of new born babies, male female brain differences, thing vs people oriented behaviors, career choices, aspergers, they all point to gender is not a social construct, but you can't even say these things or they'll ban you. They are trying to control thought, research, and speech because it goes against what they believe in. Things they believe in that has not much scientific backing.

I'll gladly accept gender dysphoria. I have many trans friends, and was even engaged to one for over a year, but they all accept that there's only two genders because anything else is just delusional. It's like the otherkin crowd that literally believe that they share the soul of Sonic.

(⌐◥▶◀◤) girl - noirscape

Your friendly neighborhood idiot

Techromancer

Yuuki chan

(⌐◥▶◀◤) girl - noirscape

PUG

Hail Mary

Well-Known Member

Amateur Hacker

Techromancer

Deleted User

Guest

Techromancer

(⌐◥▶◀◤) girl - noirscape

Well-Known Member

Deleted User

Guest

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

❤❤❤

Hail Mary

❤❤❤

Similar threads

Popular threads in this forum