Hacking Will payloads always need to be sent via USB?

Rune · May 21, 2018

So far we've seen progress in terms of being able to get into RCM without a jig. But it seems like we still need to send payloads via the USB port, whether that's through a PC, mobile, or a dongle of some sort.

Is it going to be possible in the future to store your payloads on the microSD card like the 3DS and load them with on boot without interfering with the USB port? This seems like one of the last hurdles before we could get a seamlessly working CFW.

nmkd · May 21, 2018

We don't know, for now, yes.

andijames · May 21, 2018

Not sure if the RCM mode has access to the SD as it's so low level but I'm not 100% about this. Has access to the USB port but that's obvious as it needs that to get the recovery payload or in our case our mutated one.

Kubas_inko · May 21, 2018

Yes. You will always need USB device connected to your Switch for RCM payloads (for normal user, for some time).

bytar · May 21, 2018

so, do we always need a specific quality usb c cable and usb 3.0 port? or will just a normal usb c cable (or a micro usb cable with usb c converter) and usb 2.0 port work?

naddel81 · May 21, 2018

bytar said:
so, do we always need a specific quality usb c cable and usb 3.0 port? or will just a normal usb c cable (or a micro usb cable with usb c converter) and usb 2.0 port work?

will work just fine.

SleepyPrince · May 21, 2018

The current fusee gelee exploit relies on crafted USB control requests in RCM
So unless there is a new exploit, it will need usb

bytar · May 21, 2018

naddel81 said:
will work just fine.

so why do people use high quality usb c cables and usb 3.0 ports right now? or am i missing something?

Kubas_inko · May 21, 2018

bytar said:
so why do people use high quality usb c cables and usb 3.0 ports right now? or am i missing something?

1. People are paranoid
2. I think that on Linux you need to patch something to make it work on 2.0 port. Idk how it is on windows. For some time (or still) you needed a USB 3.0.

OkazakiTheOtaku · May 21, 2018

bytar said:
so why do people use high quality usb c cables and usb 3.0 ports right now? or am i missing something?

On Windows and Linux (as well as Android, I think) you need XHCI (which is USB 3.0) so deliver the payload. On Mac you can use USB 2 cables but for everything else you need 3.0, which is going to be newer and more expensive.

Kubas_inko · May 21, 2018

OkazakiTheOtaku said:
On Windows and Linux (as well as Android, I think) you need XHCI (which is USB 3.0) so deliver the payload. On Mac you can use USB 2 cables but for everything else you need 3.0, which is going to be newer and more expensive.

More expensive, really...?

Kioku · May 21, 2018

If we're talking RCM? It's safe to assume yes. As you'd have no method of wirelessly receiving files.

Rune · May 21, 2018

Maybe I should've been more clear with what I'm really asking. What I want to know is if we're stuck with using payloads via RCM mode.
Will it not be possible to permanently flash a CFW to the device that loads from cold boot just like a OFW?

There's been talk about "emunand", but to me it feels like this is it. The fact that payloads are not permanent, and since booting without the dongle and jig leaves your device back to how it used to be, I feel like this is the "emunand" that's going to be presented to us. Which then makes me wonder if we're forever going to have to have the Switch either tethered or with a dongle.

Kioku · May 21, 2018

Rune said:
Maybe I should've been more clear with what I'm really asking. What I want to know is if we're stuck with using payloads via RCM mode.
Will it not be possible to permanently flash a CFW to the device that loads from cold boot just like a OFW?

There's been talk about "emunand", but to me it feels like this is it. The fact that payloads are not permanent, and since booting without the dongle and jig leaves your device back to how it used to be, I feel like this is the "emunand" that's going to be presented to us. Which then makes me wonder if we're forever going to have to have the Switch either tethered or with a dongle.

Honestly? I don't see how or why it wouldn't be possible in the near future. What we've got now feels like a temporary bridge to cross until they find a way.

Rune · May 21, 2018

Memoir said:
Honestly? I don't see how or why it wouldn't be possible in the near future. What we've got now feels like a temporary bridge to cross until they find a way.

Maybe I'm being a bit impatient. I've never followed a hacking scene from its early days. Normally I'd ignore it and come back in about 8-9 months time to see how things have developed. So normally I'm used to using fully developed exploits as soon as I started "hacking".

Y0sh1 · May 21, 2018

No. That is why you should stay on 3.0.0

Draxzelex · May 21, 2018

Kubas_inko said:
1. People are paranoid
2. I think that on Linux you need to patch something to make it work on 2.0 port. Idk how it is on windows. For some time (or still) you needed a USB 3.0.

OkazakiTheOtaku said:
On Windows and Linux (as well as Android, I think) you need XHCI (which is USB 3.0) so deliver the payload. On Mac you can use USB 2 cables but for everything else you need 3.0, which is going to be newer and more expensive.

TegraSmash, the program to deliver payloads on Windows devices, can use USB 2.0. My computer and its lack of 3.0 ports are proof of that

Rune said:
Maybe I should've been more clear with what I'm really asking. What I want to know is if we're stuck with using payloads via RCM mode.
Will it not be possible to permanently flash a CFW to the device that loads from cold boot just like a OFW?

There's been talk about "emunand", but to me it feels like this is it. The fact that payloads are not permanent, and since booting without the dongle and jig leaves your device back to how it used to be, I feel like this is the "emunand" that's going to be presented to us. Which then makes me wonder if we're forever going to have to have the Switch either tethered or with a dongle.

To do that, we would need coldboot access because in your scenario, when the Switch turns on, it won't boot Atmosphere. We need access before the Switch can check the firmware and these are in the form of coldboot exploits. Unfortunately, the only one we have at the moment is a tethered one. Will we see someone develop an untethered exploit in our lifetimes? Potentially. The Switch's bootrom has been leaked to the public so there may be someone poking at it everyday.

Loaffy · May 21, 2018

According to various messages/tweets from devs in the scene, it is POSSIBLE that we won't need to use RCM one day. But whether or not anyone will leak those exploits/vulnerabilities, or whether or not anyone will even develop anything for them when RCM is such a simple entry point, is the real question.

Based off history of other game console homebrew scenes I believe that eventually these other vulnerabilities will amount to something and we won't need to use RCM every boot, but it could be years before that happens so in the mean time everyone will get used to using RCM.

TiMeBoMb4u2 · May 21, 2018

Rune said:
Maybe I should've been more clear with what I'm really asking. What I want to know is if we're stuck with using payloads via RCM mode.
Will it not be possible to permanently flash a CFW to the device that loads from cold boot just like a OFW?

There's been talk about "emunand", but to me it feels like this is it. The fact that payloads are not permanent, and since booting without the dongle and jig leaves your device back to how it used to be, I feel like this is the "emunand" that's going to be presented to us. Which then makes me wonder if we're forever going to have to have the Switch either tethered or with a dongle.

At this point, everything that is not implemented in code is purely speculation.
If I'm not mistaken, @SciresM made it clear, from the beginning, that he wanted to code everything in Atmosphere with complete transparency. So, if you have specific questions regarding functionality, or future functionality, you can have a look at the GitHub code, or ask a dev, like @ktemkin, directly (Although, asking directly may, or may not, give you the answer for which you seek).

smf · May 21, 2018

Rune said:
Is it going to be possible in the future to store your payloads on the microSD card like the 3DS and load them with on boot without interfering with the USB port? This seems like one of the last hurdles before we could get a seamlessly working CFW.

My crystal ball is broken, my guess is maybe but not soon.

andijames said:
Not sure if the RCM mode has access to the SD as it's so low level but I'm not 100% about this. Has access to the USB port but that's obvious as it needs that to get the recovery payload or in our case our mutated one.

The current exploit comes from being sent data via USB, you can't do that from the sd card slot. If there is an exploit when it's looking at files on sd or on your emmc then we don't know if that hypothetical exploit is possible, when it will be found or when it will be released.

OkazakiTheOtaku said:
On Windows and Linux (as well as Android, I think) you need XHCI (which is USB 3.0) so deliver the payload. On Mac you can use USB 2 cables but for everything else you need 3.0, which is going to be newer and more expensive.

You don't need USB 3, there is a bug in Linux USB 2 drivers that prevent it from working but you can patch it to work.

TiMeBoMb4u2 said:
If I'm not mistaken, @SciresM made it clear, from the beginning, that he wanted to code everything in Atmosphere with complete transparency.

The exploit is not part of Atmosphere, so it doesn't qualify for complete transparency. Kate has made it clear from the beginning that you won't get complete transparency.

Hacking Will payloads always need to be sent via USB?

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