Hacking Gateway 3DS working on the New Nintendo 3DS.

Darth Meteos said:

At the start I thought this was in the tune of Bohemian Rhapsody.

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bytor said:

Aw bollocks. I'm very tempted to buy the New 3DS Ambassador Bundle from Nintendo. If it comes with anything higher than 9.2 I can always flog it. Or I might keep it just so that I can play Xenoblade Chronicles in glorious 3D.

What to do...what to do..?

Knowing my luck the sneaky buggers in the factory are installing 9.3 or 9.4 on all of them as I'm posting this lololol

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2Hack said:

It's kind of not so much the announcement itself as the way it has been worded and announced all this time though. It's true that people should have been told right from the start that they needed to go to 9.2 while they could and to not update to 9.3 once it finally came out before it was too late, but they've been implying right from the start that the release was basically out the door just needing some final polish to release.





Seriously, I'm also breaking my lurking ways for this. While I get that a lot of what people are saying is just "please be patient, everyone is already asking this and we just don't know when it will be" often in these things you do get people defending the company's right to not deliver. Ok, maybe it's a bit of a shady area already given how much such devices are used for illegal things (and btw, thereARElegal uses as well! And no, I don't just mean homebrew. Modifications and imports for instance. I find the dubbing in many JRPGs localized to be physically painful and some I already have bought have undubs available which I pretty well need to be able to properly enjoy them -- and just to be clear, no, this isn't some elitism or something where I think Japanese is the superior language or something. I just find localization companies to do a sucky job is all. Most primarily English games have perfectly good voice acting. Some even blow me away like the Blood Omen/Soul Reaver series did -- I'd KILL to have dubs sound like those games did...)

Anyway, there are a few things that have bothered me. First, I've been seeing people say "buy them now before the update because the prices will go up afterwards." (Mostly elsewhere I'll admit, but people are saying it.) It's already horribly expensive for a backup cart (do you have any idea how hard it was to make myself plunk down all the cash needed to get a Supercard DSTWO instead of my old Acekard 2i once the 2DS/3DS started that new block?) So yes, I jumped in in a hurry because it hurt enough as it was and I needed it to not cost a dime more than it already did. But also, they've been kind of tricking us in some ways that I presume aren't intentional. For example, why did they tell us that they were going to start with 9.0-9.2 and then work on previous firmwares going backwards? The implication of this statement is they intend to release it for 9.0-9.2 first, then they'll be providing updates as they go in supporting previous firmwares. Otherwise they're just randomly telling us their methodology which absolutely does not in any way matter. (And honestly, I really don't get why they didn't just do it that way. They were already telling us to update to 9.2 while it was still possible and all, so probably the largest number of people watching for this have already done so with a much smaller percentage stuck on earlier firmwares. Especially since in the last update they already had it down to the 7.x era, yet there's at least one common popular game which can update a system offline to 8.x that probably isn't hard to borrow without even having to buy.) Then too, I kept seeing people say stuff like that the sales team had told them a release is only days away. I kept thinking "ok, maybe they're going for roughly a Christmas-time release" or "just one more day." Still, up until that last update they basically weren't saying anything and even it didn't really say anything.

I guess more than anything else I'm kind of irritated that they're sitting on it until they get all those older versions working which really should have been a lower priority. (Not never obviously, but, like I said, it's really easy to at least get to 8.x even if you missed the chance to get to 9.2 while it was possible.) I'm also very concerned because they haven't said a single word about the actual update process. The old exploit isn't physically possible -- that cheap R4i clone or whatever the blue card is isn't going to work past the major NDS backup cart block even if a legacy support exploit were still being utilized. It has been said that it has a chip inside so people are speculating that you can update it while it's still being blocked by putting a file on the MicroSDHC card like with the DSTWO, but there has been absolutely no statement that this is actually the case (just because it has a chip doesn't mean that it's setup to actually look for an update and update itself automatically like that. Especially since this likely would require a firmware flash to the cart...) I had assumed it was like that, but couldn't find any actual evidence that this is the case, so now it's more than a bit worrying. Shouldn't they be telling people whether or not it's safe to buy a cart now? Otherwise it would be better to wait until the resellers update their carts or get new ones already updated. As it is, it worries me that I may have to try to get someone with 4.5 to update mine for me (which would be tricky and I'm not very comfortable with the idea.) It was probably stupid of me to jump on board right away and get one early, but at the same time, as has already been stated, they essentially did try to get people to do this (though I don't blame them for stuff like people elsewhere stating that we should get them while they're available.)


So yeah, some of us worry a bit and we spent quite a lot of money on this hardware, so I think we're at least entitled to worry a bit. Within limitations obviously. We can't demand that they release an update right this second or something, but with so little information, we can at least wish they'd give us more info. One of the reasons I've been lurking so long is I've been trying to figure out all the basics on this thing (like how it works and etc.) It's actually odd how little info there seems to be about how this thing works and all on their site. In fact, the most informative thing I've found at all is just a really simplistic picture (why the heck is it a picture?) that's actually a bit confusing with the way it's presented which explains how to install and use the exploit on 4.5 with no actual details on how any of the menus or whatever actually work. A nice simple five page manual or something would have been nice. Even a simple FAQ page or something. I'm particularly worried about if > 4.5 users are going to be able to actually make this work on their own though and I'll admit it.



Oh well. It makes me feel good to get that off my chest anyway, lol. I really do hope they hurry and update soon though. If nothing else, even if all goes perfectly smoothly, this thing has been sitting around basically useless for too long and I'm basically unable to play the games I'm going to be switching to it for (why the heck did Nintendo do this weird encryption thing on the saves anyway? That really sucks... I guess they were worried about exploits or something, but some sort of save processing or something to import would have at least made it possible for people to share saves or move between systems without having to do a complete system transfer -- which is probably what I should have done back before it was too late.)

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darmani11 said:

Ok, I've been a lurker for the longest time, but this post is ostensibly what finally made me make an account, to make what might very well be both my first *and last* post on here.

I'll say right now that most fanboys will probably jump on a hate-train just halfway through reading this, so let me say now; try to keep a level head, yeah? (And props to all of those of you who can remain rational).

The fanboyism here really does reach ridiculous levels.

While my time of lurking has lead me to understand that most (or at the very least "a lot") of people on here are fanboys, this thread, and the quoted post in particular, really starts to reach astronomical proportions, so just for the sake of getting a second/nuanced opinion in, or at the very, very least a counterpoint to all of the blatantly biased fanboyism running rampant on here, I'll post my attempt at an actual, somewhat neutral, non-fanboy view here.

Firstly, let's get one thing out of the way; I seriously doubt that you, or even most users on here (though to be fair most users don't claim to), in any way "support" the scene.
The people supporting the scene are the devs; those of us who actually do work and contribute (whether that be by developing homebrews and CFWs or just searching for and creating new exploits), not just sit around and use flashcarts so that they can download and play ROMs instead of buying games and supporting actual developers. By merely owning a flashcart and pirating ROMs, you are in no conceivable way supporting the scene, you are merely leeching off of it (and there's nothing wrong with that, in and of itself/nothing inherently wrong with that; if no-one used the homebrew and whatnot, a lot of devs wouldn't feel motivated to do their work in the first place, however, credit where credit is due, and you are not "supporting" anything besides your own enjoyment of other people's work (which, again, there is nothing inherently wrong with. Just don't try and take credit for other peoples work, or claim that you're doing work/putting effort in when you're actually not.)).

Now then, onto the meat of the matter, the rampant fanboyism:
It seems to me that most people forget that the Gateway Team is a public company.
They are not doing this for the "love of the scene".
They are not doing this because they like you.
They are not doing this because they want to give you something special.
They are doing this because they want money. Specifically, our money.

Gateway is a company, not a hacker-group; just like the Sky team, and even the R5 and all the other clones, they're trying to make money.
For example, anyone consider why they weren't so hot on the butter when it came to supporting devmenu? Maybe, just maybe, that was because once they did (as they now do), people with a bunch of 3DS's/2DS's only need to buy one single cart since they can install most games to the regular SD-card of their other consoles once they've run the exploit and have all the necessities installed, as opposed to buying one separate card for each and every one of their units (or their families collective units, or whichever is applicable). When did they fix full and official devmenu support? Basically the instant that it was out that the first (albeit highly unstable)CFWwas out amongst devs, and that it could be installed on a 4.5 system without a GW red card(without any of GWs products. They only gave their official support once they were forced to by the competition.
They are a company. They want to sell their product. They are not a hacker-group. They do not do this for the sheer love of the scene/for the pride and bragging-rights. They do it to make money.

Now then, as to what we can "demand" from them.
We can actually, as customers, demand that they live up to their promises. Saying that we "don't have rights" isn't true and it typical fanboy-talk, because the fact of the matter is that we have paid money for a product. If they were just a team/a person, like e.g. Smealum (the main guy behind ninjhax for those who don't know) doing all of this for free during their spare time, you would have a point (but even then, he got some well-deserved flak for bragging and telling everyone about his amazing work bloody months before delivering anything, and if you talk big, you should be able to back it up; if you can't, wait with your big announcements until you've actually got something to show for it). However, GW aren't doing this for free; particularly not in this case.

I would even say that they've been outright shady (which might arguably be expected from a company that literally makes it's money off of enabling others to commit illegal activities, but something being "expected" doesn't mean that it's morally acceptable). See, the thing is, they didn't announce their fancy new exploit as early as they did for no reason; they did it because they wanted to push more units. They wanted to sell.
They wanted to make more money.
They understandably wanted in on the holiday buck, as the yuletide buck is one of the, if not plain the biggest buck of the year. Parents, SOs, friends etcetera buy for eachother and for themselves; everyone buys a shitload more stuff than any other time of the year, particularly entertainment devices/toys, which is after all what consoles (and their peripherals) are.
But, they couldn't sell it based on it's current feature-set, as that serves only a minority group (those who have in their possession, or have access to, one or several 3DS/3DS's with the 4.5 firmware(s)) and most people in that minority group who are interested in a product of this kind already have one (or more, even), so what do they do?
They make promises.
They sold/sell their product not primarily on current features, but on the promise of future features. Now, as is expected, they have been very vague and constantly avoiding giving any specific time-indicators (and it, in a very bitter way, amuses me to see how quickly the fanboys forget the debacle from just a year back); however, one fact rings true; they have used words which they (and we all) very well know how people will react to and interpret.
It's not feasible to say that "Well "soon" and "just around the corner" and "any day now" can mean in a years time", because in practice, it can't. GW knows how people will interpret that sort of wording; if they didn't, they wouldn't use it so consistently. It's based around giving people hope and making them think that something is going to happen soon - and as such, making them buy their product - but at the same time being able to back out and say "hey, we didn't promise any dates, we didn't set any specific time". They don't say "soon" because they think it will be "soon", they say "soon" because they know that that will make people hopeful, and, as such, buy their product.
It's often very hard to set a time-frame for this kind of work (most people who have ever worked with anything like this - professionally or otherwise - would already know this), but that's why you do not use words like "soon". Instead, you say things like "We don't know yet" or just plain the honest "We have no idea when it'll be done, we're just at the point where we finally know for a fact that it is at all doable, so it will be done at some point in the future". Saying things like "soon" and "just around the corner" has no point other than to entice people to buy their stuff - and as such, as consumers, we do actually have some right to demand that they live up to their promises. It doesn't matter that they haven't given an exact date, when they have - knowingly and deliberately - used phrasing specifically to make people buy their stuff/create hype and hope. People (usually with due right) throw a shitfit whenever stuff like this happens in any other area - From Software didn't live up to their implicit promises regarding the graphics in Dark Souls 2 (even though they never explicitly promised that the trailer graphics were the final graphics), what happens? Shitfit. Ubisoft provably doesn't deliver the graphics for Watch Dogs that they originally showed to people in their first trailer (even though they never explicitly promised that those were the final graphics), but it can be unlocked through conf-editing; what happens? Shitfit. The list goes on.

When a creator of a product makes statements that might not be super-specific in nature, but are very obviously worded so as to create hope and hype while at the same time creating enough crawlspace for the creator to back out and say "Hey, I didn't make any explicit promises!" you should not defend it, you should call it out.

Again, people need to realize that;
Gateway are not your friends, they are a company. They don't want to do nice things for you just for the sake of being nice; they want your money. If they wanted to just be nice/if money wasn't their primary concern, they'd release all of their stuff into the wild, open up their source-code, let other devs get a look at it and tweak, modify and improve upon it; maybe sell a few flashcarts on the side for those who are truly not interested in anything but playing ROMs and just want a "plug-and-play"-type solution; but they're not doing that (and what's worse, they knowingly and with intent insert code to brick peoples hardware, or did we all forget about that little event?).
Why not?
Because they're not your friends, they're not my friends, and they're certainly not the scenes friends. They are a company, and to them, you are just a wallet that walks like a man. They continue to give support because that means continued revenue, i.e., continued cashflow, i.e., more money in their pockets. They don't do it out of the good of their hearts, and no (semi-)adult person should be believing that.

We have a right to be demanding, because we are their customers and give our money to them, and they are a company that sells a product. Even more so, as of late, they sell their product based on a promise, and knowingly and deliberately word their communications to their customers in such a way as to keep hopes up and hype high.
Saying that we have no right to be demanding is the same thing as saying that I can't be demanding ofToyotawhen they've promised me that my car will use up such and such many litres of fuel per kilometre; we are customers, and they're a company making promises. We are not risk-capital investors or silent partners, those two groups might not be able to make any demands, but customers that pay money for a product can and should be demanding (in moderation though, of course). We shouldn't just "let GW take their time", if they're pulling BS or acting in a shady manner. If they're pulling BS or acting in a shady manner, they should be called out on it, not defended. They're a company. They don't care about you, they care about your money (and making it their money). They don't need your defending; that's like the abused spouse defending his/her/it's assailant.

So, that's my two cents, and an attempt to be a bit more neutral and bring at least one non-fanboy view to the table.

Cheers, fellas, and stay civil.

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gamesquest1 said:

whats the title of the novel first?

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VeryCrushed said:

Well that's sad cause I played through every other one, still gonna play it cause I refuse to let a KH game go by without playing.

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andzalot55 said:

Well its better than Re:coded on the DS.

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Th0r said:

Also, would this work?
SANDISK microSDHC Ultra 32GB, Class 10, UHS-I, 48MB/Sec, + SD Adapter


Sorry, I'm pretty new to all of this.

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codychaosx said:

I believe if we penis the penis. Gateway will rectify the rectum.

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Ritchie555 said:

If you think we're frustrated, think of the Gateway Distributors. They've been stocking up on 100's, maybe 1000's of cards in prep for this...... er... "soon" update.

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darmani11 said:

Hm, and here I was, hoping that even if the time came when my posts were needed again, there would be a long time afore an event of that nature transpired; again, it seems I was wrong, as I noticed some confusion regarding bits of my latest post that were no-ones fault but my own, most pressingly, that I did not give a definition of the concept of "fanboy"; and as such, I will now make a case-in-point regarding some of the debate by being transparent and communicative, and correcting my mistakes and better defining those things which were ill-defined, as I am no prophet or religious scripture that should need to be "interpreted", but rather, I aim towards making understandable, clear, and direct point(s); having failed in this previously, I will try and remedy that here (and make a bonus sidenote or two).

As to the first sidenote; I commend those who disagree with me, but actually do read what I write and write replies in a rational, civil manner and actually try and counter my points as opposed to using tricks such as Ad Hominem*, or deliberately saying "I didn't actually read everything person X said, but I'm going to argue against it/what little I saw anyway, even without full context or understanding", or simply ignoring half of the points and only replying to a few specific ones, without admitting that "I only reply to X, because Y was actually correct".

Let's start then with the definition of a "fanboy", as there have been a couple of good cases in point since my last post that I can use to give a clearer idea.
Firstly, out of the two interpretations that were made, the latter is the one closest to my definition; that is, that "fanboyism" means blatantly defending all facets - even the shadier ones - of the thing one is a fan of even in the face of said things actions in reality, and using faulty arguments along the lines of "Well Y isn't bad, because X exists, and X is worse"**; and also to give out things that are actually personal opinions as facts and exaggerating things, such as was given an excellent example of earlier by some user, who quite literally said that GW was better than Sky, and listed a number of features that would supposedly make GW the superior choice, while remaining completely ignorant towards two main things;
Firstly, that what features one is actually looking for is subjective, and not everyone wants - or cares for - the exact same features. E.g., in the specific case of one solely wanting to play imports, or at least considering the option to play imports to be of any importance, then GW is factually the better choice, simply by merit of that you can't do that with Sky (at the time of writing, at least) and "that's that"; same thing with if e.g. installing .CIA's (again, at the time of writing, as one cannot do that with Sky at said time) is an important feature for one. However, this is subjective; for someone who simply wants to play ROMs, for legal backup-reasons or otherwise, both of the carts are quite capable of doing that, and then one would have to look at e.g. how you would go about doing that on both carts (if it's equally simple to get started, how much work has to be put in to use them, if you have to do something in particular to be able to do it etcetera), if they can both play the same amount of ROMs etcetera and base it on that, and then GW might actually not be the superior choice; it is subjective (to take an example, it could easily be argued that getting set-up with GW is more work than the Sky, and that some people just "can't be arsed" or "doesn't consider the benefits to be worth the hassle"; and that is not just "them being lazy and stupid", that is them knowing what they want and going with the option that best suit their wants and needs). Additionally, the exaggerating; saying things like "being able to update games for online play" in a context where it's said as if it's a unique feature of the one or the other, when it actually isn't.
Secondly, a clear property of a fanboy is trying to push their particular choice/product upon others, e.g. by
1. Instead of first asking e.g. "Hey, what do you need? Oh, X, Y, and Z?" and then (and only then) replying with something along the lines of "Well, in that case I'd say that you should go with Q, because they will be capable of doing X, Y, and Z for you; but just so you know, P applies to all of that".
2. Saying things along the lines of "Oh, you've made a decision for X? No, don't go with that, hold out and go with my thing instead!" (there was some user posting a case in point for this earlier)
3. Claiming the superiority of their own choice/product by showcasing the Pro's, but little to no (or meaningless) Cons regarding their own choice/product, and doing the exact opposite for the competing choice/product (a case in point here was that some user made a list that supposedly would show that GW was ultimately superior for everyone at the moment, but failed to mention a number of things, including but not limited to that Sky works on the latest firmware, which GW doesn't, and also committing wholly to the "upholding their definition of "best" as a fact based on that product X has features that they themselves might want, but others might ultimately not care for/about).
And thirdly, a common property of fanboys - that it can be argued is not required to be a "fanboy", but that I consider important enough to at least be mentioned - is that they get emotionally vested in their choice. This is a common human trait that has undergone much research, even in the specifics of the psychology of fandom, and I cannot possibly write it all down here, but a few (heavily) shortened points and examples regarding the mechanics of how it works are;
1. One has been raised with X, and as such, self-identifies with X to a very high degree.
2. One has chosen X and cannot (for whatever reason) also choose Y, and as such, get insecure in their choice when faced with the possibility that X wasn't the best choice, and as such assert the superiority of X to restore their own internal mental balance.
3. Out of a general/not inherently fandom-related psychological insecurity, one has to assert oneself as being superior in most (and extreme cases, all) things, and will as such default to considering everyone that do not agree with their specific choice of X to have made an inferior choice.
And this is of course just scratching the surface; for those interested in further reading, I'd recommend starting with something by Freud (as mad as the man was in most respects, he made more than a few points that still hold up to this day) specifically regarding attachment, and the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophys article on emotion, specifically section 8, "Rationality and Emotions" ( http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotion/#8 ).

That would be the definition of a fanboy; hope that clears things up a bit, and I apologize for overestimating my original "clearness", so to speak.

Now then, as a second sidenote (hmm, perhaps it would be more accurate of me to describe them as "secondary points" as opposed to "sidenotes"?), allow me to say that the whole "it's peoples own fault for not researching enough" also falls into a fallacy; for then, you have to specify what "enough" research is. If you don't, and it is taken to it's logical conclusion, then that would mean that if I were to e.g. buy a GW-kit, I would first have to find a reseller. Secondly, I'd have to read up on that particular reseller/company, to see what sort of reputation it has. Thirdly, I would have to see who originally owned and operated the reseller, and who is currently doing it, as it might have otherwise been taken over by a shady person. As such, I would fourthly have to find out some personal details regarding the person who currently owns and operates it, to know if that person is trustworthy. Fifthly, I would have to make sure that that person was not part of a larger conspiracy of some sort, directed specifically towards making me buy a false GW-kit, and so on and so forth; already by the fifth step, it has turned ridiculous, and there are many, many other ways of formulating this fallacy without getting so ridiculous (here, I do it to be very clear regarding the point at hand), and also with adding many, many more steps; as such, there has to be a limit to what is reasonable, and a defined one, e.g. "I the company in question seems reputable, and when I contacted them, they gave me answer X which seems satisfactory" or some other example. Further, saying that (as some user previously did) it is always the user buying a clones own fault leads to a fallacy (which will shortly be explained) and also a second rather absurd conclusion. For the fallacy; since most people who did buy a clone were most likely new to it all and didn't even know there was such a thing as "clones" that they had to watch out for, that logic leads to an absurd logical end as that is logically and principally identical to me saying
"Anyone who slips on a banana peel will be shot on sight", and then - waiting around a corner - intently watching a banana peel on the side-walk, and shooting the first person who slips on it, and then explaining myself by saying "Well, it doesn't matter if the person didn't hear me saying that I'd shoot anyone who slipped, he/she/it could've just been watching his/her/its feet even though he/she/it had no particular reason to be doing so; they still could
have been watching their feet, hence, it's their fault for not doing so".
For the second absurd conclusion, it would as such also mean that everyone would have to watch out for everything at all times, i.e. a variant of the earlier fallacy regarding "having to do research".

Yet another sidenote is that the newspost that said "just around the corner" also used the word "soon", not to mention the earlier made point regarding how early they released a teaser video, and I find it is currently most rational to assume that at least a few of the mails - perhaps particularly the ones from our own users - are real. Further, also the fact that they are keeping us completely in the dark as to what's actually going on. Hence, it would still seem - unless I've missed something - that they have actually acted in a rather sleazy/questionable manner.

Regarding what's actually going on, that leads to the third and final (unless I later remember something that I as I'm writing this have forgotten) sidenote, the matter of their supposed "stability-testing".
It is proven not by me, but by GWs actual communications to us, that we have no idea what they're doing, simply because they haven't told us. I made this point in my previous post, and even came up with two other blind guesses as to what might be keeping them and furthermore added an argument as to why those two blind guesses might actually be better guesses than that they're stability-testing, and yet it seems that some people keep talking about being patient because "don't you want a stable release?" as if it was a fact that stability-testing is what they're doing. This baffles me, and could be added to the definition of a fanboy; assuming that the best possible/most probable explanation for any action that the thing they're a fan of is always also the explanation that puts the thing in question in the best possible light. One cannot say that the extra amounts of time it is taking is because they're stability-testing, because we provably have no proof pointing to that or to literally anything at all. Me guessing that they're members of a small and secret cult that forbids releasing software-related updates of a particular byte-size at any other day then the 21st of march is literally just as good a guess as that they're bug-hunting, simply because they are keeping us in the dark and not telling us anything at all. Saying "don't you want a stable release" or "if you got your way people would brick their 3DS's" is simply not fact, it's wild speculation.

Now, that should be it. If I've missed something, made some error or other, or have said something without properly defining it, I would like to be called out on it, that I may improve and better myself.

Stay civil, unemotional and rational.

*Ad Hominem=Attacking the person making a point, as opposed to the point itself; when one cannot actually counter the points being made, and instead opts to attack the person making the points and as such trying to "win" by metaphorically saying "that man is covered in poo! Do you really want to agree with a man covered in poo?" and making people disagree based on that, even though the actual creature making the points - and the make-up of said creature - is entirely irrelevant to the validity of the points, and if the points made by the poo-covered man are actually correct. Put as simply as possible; one tries to avoid the issue(s) at hand and instead try to attack the people, not the arguments, of the opposing side.

** That sort of "argument" is inherently flawed, as the principle and logic it is based upon leads to a fallacy, in the sense that if the people using that sort of argument truly believed in it, they would never try and complain about e.g. being randomly beaten up and put in a wheelchair, because people sometimes get wantonly/senselessly murdered, and getting murdered is certainly worse than "merely" being put in a wheelchair. Put simply, it's flawed because it is a false argument that no-one truly upholds, and also/secondly because the logic upon which it is based leads to that there can literally be only one living person at a time who has a right to complain about anything, and that would be the one single person currently alive that has the worst possible conditions at any given time.

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Originally Posted by ninjadudexp
It's already been confirmed to be true making the validity of the images are moot

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Originally Posted by caries
Firstly, let's kill one particular lie that's been floating around on here for some time;
The limitation on the red-button carts (henceforth called the "RBC") were broken long before Sky3DS released the blue-button card (henceforth called the "BBC" (pun-like abbreviation not intended, but accidental)), and when the Skyteam released theBBC, they linked to the GBAtemp-thread that contained the guide(s) to breaking said limit, and what's more, in a later update, they actually broke it themselves (i.e. you no longer need to do it "manually", but their latest template and disk-writing tool do it automatically, making it so that even the originalRBCcan play an equal amount of games as theBBCcan).
Hence, theRBCusers did actually not need to buy theBBC.

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GW did a similar - not to say "in principle identical" - thing with DevMenu.
DevMenu was "out in the wild" a ways before GW supported it - and when exactly did GW support it?

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I really shouldn't even have to write any more than this;
"If it was truly just a case of them being careful, not releasing because they were beta-testing, checking for bugs and errors und zu weiter with no other motives, then they wouldn't keep using hype-inducing and heavily implication-laden language.

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Now, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that every single mail that has circulated around here and elsewhere is fake, and that the only things we have to go by are the updates from their website.
Even then, they have at the very least been acting exceedingly deceptively even if they haven't been outright lying (as one can always use the eternal excuse of "I/We didn't explicitly use the specific word "promise", hence, no promise was made").
See, while it can be argued that their original news-post from mid-November was actually for the benefit of the end-users/customers (since it told people to not update beyond the then-current firmware of 9.2, as the exploit* might not function beyond that), all of the news-posts regarding the new functionality since then has been deliberately written so as to heavily imply that a release will be forthcoming in the very, very near future.

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One cannot argue that sentences like "just around the corner" can mean anything from "tomorrow" to "in a decade", because in practice, it can't; people will not interpret it like that, will not understand it like that, and will not assume it to mean that (and you do not need neither a psych- nor linguistics-degree to know that, and it holds true for every currently spoken language except possibly Lojban, and no-one has Lojban as their mother-tounge/native tounge).

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darmani11 said:

Hm, and here I was, hoping that even if the time came when my posts were needed again, there would be a long time afore an event of that nature transpired; again, it seems I was wrong, as I noticed some confusion regarding bits of my latest post that were no-ones fault but my own, most pressingly, that I did not give a definition of the concept of "fanboy"; and as such, I will now make a case-in-point regarding some of the debate by being transparent and communicative, and correcting my mistakes and better defining those things which were ill-defined, as I am no prophet or religious scripture that should need to be "interpreted", but rather, I aim towards making understandable, clear, and direct point(s); having failed in this previously, I will try and remedy that here (and make a bonus sidenote or two).

As to the first sidenote; I commend those who disagree with me, but actually do read what I write and write replies in a rational, civil manner and actually try and counter my points as opposed to using tricks such as Ad Hominem*, or deliberately saying "I didn't actually read everything person X said, but I'm going to argue against it/what little I saw anyway, even without full context or understanding", or simply ignoring half of the points and only replying to a few specific ones, without admitting that "I only reply to X, because Y was actually correct".

Let's start then with the definition of a "fanboy", as there have been a couple of good cases in point since my last post that I can use to give a clearer idea.
Firstly, out of the two interpretations that were made, the latter is the one closest to my definition; that is, that "fanboyism" means blatantly defending all facets - even the shadier ones - of the thing one is a fan of even in the face of said things actions in reality, and using faulty arguments along the lines of "Well Y isn't bad, because X exists, and X is worse"**; and also to give out things that are actually personal opinions as facts and exaggerating things, such as was given an excellent example of earlier by some user, who quite literally said that GW was better than Sky, and listed a number of features that would supposedly make GW the superior choice, while remaining completely ignorant towards two main things;
Firstly, that what features one is actually looking for is subjective, and not everyone wants - or cares for - the exact same features. E.g., in the specific case of one solely wanting to play imports, or at least considering the option to play imports to be of any importance, then GW is factually the better choice, simply by merit of that you can't do that with Sky (at the time of writing, at least) and "that's that"; same thing with if e.g. installing .CIA's (again, at the time of writing, as one cannot do that with Sky at said time) is an important feature for one. However, this is subjective; for someone who simply wants to play ROMs, for legal backup-reasons or otherwise, both of the carts are quite capable of doing that, and then one would have to look at e.g. how you would go about doing that on both carts (if it's equally simple to get started, how much work has to be put in to use them, if you have to do something in particular to be able to do it etcetera), if they can both play the same amount of ROMs etcetera and base it on that, and then GW might actually not be the superior choice; it is subjective (to take an example, it could easily be argued that getting set-up with GW is more work than the Sky, and that some people just "can't be arsed" or "doesn't consider the benefits to be worth the hassle"; and that is not just "them being lazy and stupid", that is them knowing what they want and going with the option that best suit their wants and needs). Additionally, the exaggerating; saying things like "being able to update games for online play" in a context where it's said as if it's a unique feature of the one or the other, when it actually isn't.
Secondly, a clear property of a fanboy is trying to push their particular choice/product upon others, e.g. by
1. Instead of first asking e.g. "Hey, what do you need? Oh, X, Y, and Z?" and then (and only then) replying with something along the lines of "Well, in that case I'd say that you should go with Q, because they will be capable of doing X, Y, and Z for you; but just so you know, P applies to all of that".
2. Saying things along the lines of "Oh, you've made a decision for X? No, don't go with that, hold out and go with my thing instead!" (there was some user posting a case in point for this earlier)
3. Claiming the superiority of their own choice/product by showcasing the Pro's, but little to no (or meaningless) Cons regarding their own choice/product, and doing the exact opposite for the competing choice/product (a case in point here was that some user made a list that supposedly would show that GW was ultimately superior for everyone at the moment, but failed to mention a number of things, including but not limited to that Sky works on the latest firmware, which GW doesn't, and also committing wholly to the "upholding their definition of "best" as a fact based on that product X has features that they themselves might want, but others might ultimately not care for/about).
And thirdly, a common property of fanboys - that it can be argued is not required to be a "fanboy", but that I consider important enough to at least be mentioned - is that they get emotionally vested in their choice. This is a common human trait that has undergone much research, even in the specifics of the psychology of fandom, and I cannot possibly write it all down here, but a few (heavily) shortened points and examples regarding the mechanics of how it works are;
1. One has been raised with X, and as such, self-identifies with X to a very high degree.
2. One has chosen X and cannot (for whatever reason) also choose Y, and as such, get insecure in their choice when faced with the possibility that X wasn't the best choice, and as such assert the superiority of X to restore their own internal mental balance.
3. Out of a general/not inherently fandom-related psychological insecurity, one has to assert oneself as being superior in most (and extreme cases, all) things, and will as such default to considering everyone that do not agree with their specific choice of X to have made an inferior choice.
And this is of course just scratching the surface; for those interested in further reading, I'd recommend starting with something by Freud (as mad as the man was in most respects, he made more than a few points that still hold up to this day) specifically regarding attachment, and the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophys article on emotion, specifically section 8, "Rationality and Emotions" ( http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotion/#8 ).

That would be the definition of a fanboy; hope that clears things up a bit, and I apologize for overestimating my original "clearness", so to speak.

Now then, as a second sidenote (hmm, perhaps it would be more accurate of me to describe them as "secondary points" as opposed to "sidenotes"?), allow me to say that the whole "it's peoples own fault for not researching enough" also falls into a fallacy; for then, you have to specify what "enough" research is. If you don't, and it is taken to it's logical conclusion, then that would mean that if I were to e.g. buy a GW-kit, I would first have to find a reseller. Secondly, I'd have to read up on that particular reseller/company, to see what sort of reputation it has. Thirdly, I would have to see who originally owned and operated the reseller, and who is currently doing it, as it might have otherwise been taken over by a shady person. As such, I would fourthly have to find out some personal details regarding the person who currently owns and operates it, to know if that person is trustworthy. Fifthly, I would have to make sure that that person was not part of a larger conspiracy of some sort, directed specifically towards making me buy a false GW-kit, and so on and so forth; already by the fifth step, it has turned ridiculous, and there are many, many other ways of formulating this fallacy without getting so ridiculous (here, I do it to be very clear regarding the point at hand), and also with adding many, many more steps; as such, there has to be a limit to what is reasonable, and a defined one, e.g. "I the company in question seems reputable, and when I contacted them, they gave me answer X which seems satisfactory" or some other example. Further, saying that (as some user previously did) it is always the user buying a clones own fault leads to a fallacy (which will shortly be explained) and also a second rather absurd conclusion. For the fallacy; since most people who did buy a clone were most likely new to it all and didn't even know there was such a thing as "clones" that they had to watch out for, that logic leads to an absurd logical end as that is logically and principally identical to me saying
"Anyone who slips on a banana peel will be shot on sight", and then - waiting around a corner - intently watching a banana peel on the side-walk, and shooting the first person who slips on it, and then explaining myself by saying "Well, it doesn't matter if the person didn't hear me saying that I'd shoot anyone who slipped, he/she/it could've just been watching his/her/its feet even though he/she/it had no particular reason to be doing so; they still could
have been watching their feet, hence, it's their fault for not doing so".
For the second absurd conclusion, it would as such also mean that everyone would have to watch out for everything at all times, i.e. a variant of the earlier fallacy regarding "having to do research".

Yet another sidenote is that the newspost that said "just around the corner" also used the word "soon", not to mention the earlier made point regarding how early they released a teaser video, and I find it is currently most rational to assume that at least a few of the mails - perhaps particularly the ones from our own users - are real. Further, also the fact that they are keeping us completely in the dark as to what's actually going on. Hence, it would still seem - unless I've missed something - that they have actually acted in a rather sleazy/questionable manner.

Regarding what's actually going on, that leads to the third and final (unless I later remember something that I as I'm writing this have forgotten) sidenote, the matter of their supposed "stability-testing".
It is proven not by me, but by GWs actual communications to us, that we have no idea what they're doing, simply because they haven't told us. I made this point in my previous post, and even came up with two other blind guesses as to what might be keeping them and furthermore added an argument as to why those two blind guesses might actually be better guesses than that they're stability-testing, and yet it seems that some people keep talking about being patient because "don't you want a stable release?" as if it was a fact that stability-testing is what they're doing. This baffles me, and could be added to the definition of a fanboy; assuming that the best possible/most probable explanation for any action that the thing they're a fan of is always also the explanation that puts the thing in question in the best possible light. One cannot say that the extra amounts of time it is taking is because they're stability-testing, because we provably have no proof pointing to that or to literally anything at all. Me guessing that they're members of a small and secret cult that forbids releasing software-related updates of a particular byte-size at any other day then the 21st of march is literally just as good a guess as that they're bug-hunting, simply because they are keeping us in the dark and not telling us anything at all. Saying "don't you want a stable release" or "if you got your way people would brick their 3DS's" is simply not fact, it's wild speculation.

Now, that should be it. If I've missed something, made some error or other, or have said something without properly defining it, I would like to be called out on it, that I may improve and better myself.

Stay civil, unemotional and rational.

*Ad Hominem=Attacking the person making a point, as opposed to the point itself; when one cannot actually counter the points being made, and instead opts to attack the person making the points and as such trying to "win" by metaphorically saying "that man is covered in poo! Do you really want to agree with a man covered in poo?" and making people disagree based on that, even though the actual creature making the points - and the make-up of said creature - is entirely irrelevant to the validity of the points, and if the points made by the poo-covered man are actually correct. Put as simply as possible; one tries to avoid the issue(s) at hand and instead try to attack the people, not the arguments, of the opposing side.

** That sort of "argument" is inherently flawed, as the principle and logic it is based upon leads to a fallacy, in the sense that if the people using that sort of argument truly believed in it, they would never try and complain about e.g. being randomly beaten up and put in a wheelchair, because people sometimes get wantonly/senselessly murdered, and getting murdered is certainly worse than "merely" being put in a wheelchair. Put simply, it's flawed because it is a false argument that no-one truly upholds, and also/secondly because the logic upon which it is based leads to that there can literally be only one living person at a time who has a right to complain about anything, and that would be the one single person currently alive that has the worst possible conditions at any given time.

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2Hack said:

Confirmed by whom? The Gateway team has not released anything specific about how they will be doing their exploit, so I would go so far as to say it is not confirmed. There has long been speculation that the MiiPlaza thing is probably just about the only way such an exploit could be brought about. This makes sense and it does mean that it's very likely that it will be the basic gist of it if not verbatim. However, it's still speculation plain and simple. We don't know that's the way they're doing it or that it's the only way possible to exploit the system at this point. Imagine, just for instance, if they found a way to sign code and put something on the memory card that forces it to accept the Gateway cartridge (just a for-instance off the top of my head, there are probably better examples one could think up especially with more info about how these things work.) I want to be clear, I'm not necessarily saying that's even possible, it's just an example that there might be ways that haven't even been considered so far. The fact of the matter is, he just took the Ninjahax instructions and modified them to MiiPlaza and that's it. IF we use the MiiPlaza method, then yes, his guide will be correct kind of by default. But if it turns out there actually was some other way people haven't been considering then suddenly it's meaningless...

It just bothers me with all this stuff because I'm seeing so much assumption and speculation with little or no basis backing it. I mean, it makes sense to say that the MiiPlaza has the most potential for this sort of exploit, but at the same time, we shouldn't assume it is the exploit, only that it is the most likely candidate from what we currently know.

I guess the real point here is just how extreme they were willing to go to take advantage of their users. Applying the limitation in the first place was utterly meaningless as far as compatibility or etc goes -- it was solely to force people to have to buy new carts as they hit the limitation. It just bothers me that they essentially made their entire business model around directly and intentionally screwing people over. I don't claim the Gateway team is perfect by a long shot (though we'll have to disagree on the bricking thing. It's not clear if that was actually intentional from what I've read as it sounds like it has more to do with the clone carts using some conflicting code among other things, which is always a danger when one tries to rip off the undocumented closed works of another.) All I personally say is that between the two, Gateway at least tries to offer some value and Sky3DS was in business from the beginning to rip people off.


When the first, highly unstable,CFWwas out - i.e., when you could use it, and all of it's functionality (most relevantly in this case, install .CIA's) without ever needing to buy any GW hardware (i.e. when they were forced to by their competition).
Prior to GW supporting DevMenu, you would've had to buy one (1) GW-kit (or at the very least GW Red Cart) per console you wanted to use it on - but now that it supports DevMenu, you only need one (1) cart all-in-all, as you can just install .CIA's to all but one of your consoles, and use the red cart with that one (or not at all, if you'd prefer).
I don't know that this is really comparable though. Integrating devmenu into Gateway's systems isn't necessarily as simple as you might think. I wouldn't really say it was an intentional limitation or even trying to hold back or anything to squeeze out more profit so much as them just lagging behind the scene perhaps out of necessity, perhaps just out of being slow (and we've definitely established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Gateway team will win no awards for speed here.) More importantly, I would argue that devmenu is just on a radically different scale. Sky3DS disabling adding any new ROMs after an arbitrarily pre-set (and quite low) limit originally essentially applied a severe functionality limit solely for the sake of gaining more profit. Devmenu, by comparison, is not even on the same scale. It allows the use of things like installing CIAs and not really a whole lot else that the average user can really do anything with (I guess the play coin thing might be kind of nice for those few games where they have some use, but even then it's ridiculously simple to get your play coin count up higher than you know what to do with just by taking a ride somewhere with the system in hand or pocket -- apparently just the vibrations of a moving vehicle are sufficient to raise the counter in my experience with no actual walking needed. And of course one can just shake the system for a while.) So that's physically disabling itself versus a bonus feature. Not really comparable to me at least. (Sorry, I just stick to the apples to apples, oranges to oranges philosophy. If you were using this in reverse and arguing Sky3DS was bad because of something they've done that isn't comparable I would still have to go against it as it just isn't a valid comparison.)



Here's the thing: nothing else actually makes any sense. A lot of people are waiting to buy Gateway cartridges until the update is released. Some are threatening to sell theirs (and remember, even if that does mean there was one original sale, them selling it to someone else used means that instead of two sales you have one because the used sale is $0.00 to the hardware makers. So they don't want used sales, they want people to want to buy their product.) They've also stated on their own website even that they don't really officially have FB, Twitter, and etc and that any e-mail not directly coming from them to you should be assumed to be fake. If they really were trying to convince people of this stuff, they'd be releasing more updates right on their website stating "almost there, get ready" or etc. Instead it's just one update saying "thanks for your patience, we're still working on it, but it's just around the corner." Nothing specific, no statements of before Christmas or before the end of the week or any of that. (Actually, I'm beginning to think that even if the e-mails weren't fake it might be a disparity between people who actually handle the e-mail aspect of things and the team doing the development. If they aren't actually the same people, I wouldn't be shocked if the ones handling the e-mails were indeed saying things that weren't necessarily 100% correct based on the team stating that it's almost done or whatever.)


Aren't you breaking your own supposition then? All of the "heavily written to imply" statements except for only the one are from the e-mails we assume here are false. The only "heavily implied" statement from Gateway we can actually prove is true is the one on their website stating only "just around the corner" (which you have to admit is a bit of a stretch to say actually is directly stating it will be out, say, by the end of the week" or whatever. It's true it implies it will be soon, but the implication is so loose and left open that I don't think anyone really actually can rightly assume from "just around the corner" that they are explicitly stating or implying that it's really that soon...)


Alright, here's where we're just going to have to agree to disagree I guess. To me and everyone I know, this is just too vague to really mean we should be assuming anything so specific as "by the weekend" or "on January 2nd" or all of these other assumptions going around. "Just around the corner" simply implies to me and everyone I personally know "it's really close" which, in other words, isn't really saying anything. No one I know would draw any conclusions from that. Now, we could argue that many people would draw such conclusions -- such is human nature I suppose -- but if we stop and think about this for a moment, isn't it more likely that they would feel -- as myself and all I know do -- that this isn't a statement which would lead people to assume anything too specific? It's certainly not, as you frequently imply, very carefully written to specifically fool people. It's just a simply vague statement, nothing more. At this point I'm going to have to say you're reading a bit too much into this...





Anyway, at this point I'm starting to disagree with you after all. Your definition of "fanboyism" is rather beginning to appear to be "anyone currently in favor of them over a competitor." Fanboyism is more along the lines of, for instance, the Apple fanatics who will line up at the Apple store the night before a release day with the assumption everything Apple makes is automatically good rather than actually shopping around and looking at alternatives (and I've found that if one actually researches there is always a cheaper product with more features.) In fact, in this case, most fanboyism generally gravitates towards Sky3DS. It's a simple case of "oh, it works with the latest!" and etc where the marketing and hype fool them into rushing into spending more for a product that offers less in actual features -- that or just plain being too much in a hurry. The fact of the matter is, none of the products here are perfect and they never will be, but, unless you're going so far as to say that the Gateway team is outright lying (which would ultimately be shooting themselves in the foot and guaranteeing that they go out of business -- I don't think any of these first-party groups are that shortsighted, though I could see argument for some of the third party groups that make clones perhaps making shortsighted quick money grabs) the fact is, it's the product that doesn't fits the bill of the non-fanboy product (more features, lower price, less marketing, etc.)

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2Hack said:

..

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