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Roe V Wade has been repealed

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titan_tim

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It depends. If it´s Baby Hitler, i´d choose the suitcase. If the suitcase is full of supremacist titan_tim fetuses, i`d save an old man who is has less than a minute to live.
Sorry, one more point about that line of thinking. If we WERE able to predict who every kid would become, does that suddenly make abortion alright in your eyes?

If you predict that the baby would be a murderer, you'd be alright with abortions for any murderer babies? What about all the babies that will be drags on society? Are they alright to remove from your carefully weeded out society? You'd pick out only the ones which go on to become the best of society? That's pretty dark.
 

NoobletCheese

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A 10 yr old girl got raped and became pregnant and had to travel to Ohio to get an abortion
No exceptions... and by that, I mean every conservative leaning individual in this thread is a selfish ignorant and short sighted misogynistic bag of fecal matter. This is literally the beginning of a wave of preventable tragedies for no good reason.

Letting the states decide their own laws enhances democracy, so the Supreme Court decision is still the right thing in principle if you value democracy. Do you want to run the risk of a very conservative president getting elected & trying to pass restrictions at a federal level?

Now assuming this story of a 10 year old is true, it's clearly a case of rape and the victim would have to be more than 6 weeks pregnant as Ohio appears to be using the "heartbeat" law which caps abortions at 6 weeks, or at any week if the mother's life is threatened or "severely compromised physical health".

For adults I don't have too much of an issue with Ohio's law as adults are generally mature enough to identify rape and use contraception within 6 weeks of the crime. But children don't necessarily have that level of maturity so perhaps they deserve special consideration and should be allowed to have later abortions.

Now the hard question for you is: at what month would you cap abortions, and what would you do if this 10 year old girl was already past that month?
 

Dark_Phoras

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I think that in the case of rape abortion is valid at any point of the pregnancy, independent of the woman's age.

P.S.: I haven't been exposed to social media and I always read the same moderate/centre-right newspaper, so I'm not in any bandwagon. At the start of this conversation (when the SCOTUS memo was leaked), I considered myself a moderate pro-life, but the more I think about abortion, the less assured I am of any restrictions.
 
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UltraDolphinRevolution

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Sorry, one more point about that line of thinking. If we WERE able to predict who every kid would become, does that suddenly make abortion alright in your eyes?
I am not taking a position on abortion. You cannot force a unwilling parent to be a good one. You cannot force society to pay for unwanted children. If a woman in her prime is in a financially stable marriage but has been convinced by feminism that her office job is more important and then later desperately tries to conceive at 36, so be it. I´m not her father.
If you predict that the baby would be a murderer, you'd be alright with abortions for any murderer babies? What about all the babies that will be drags on society? Are they alright to remove from your carefully weeded out society? You'd pick out only the ones which go on to become the best of society? That's pretty dark.
If the future is determined (which is not clear), then I would be for aborting babies who would become murderers. However, then my typing this would be pre-determined as well.

Regarding babies who are a liability to society: the parents should make the decision and society should not be forced to pay for their decisions. Same as with number of children. If somebody wants to have 15 children but can only financially afford 3, let the family starve or find help at a religious group or extended family. There is nothing moral about stealing from society to incentivize bad life choices. Rewarding bad choices is what has brought us here (look at oure conomy, our society).

I am against designer babies, btw. In order to get to your preferred baby, you´d have to get rid of a lot of unwanted ones. Since you give zero value to fetuses: How many fetuses are you willing to throw away in order to have your designer baby? 100? 1000? 1mio?
 
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Letting the states decide their own laws enhances democracy
I feel like a broken record, so I'm just going to quote myself
As I mentioned time and time sgain. The Republican party voted against the removal of gerrymandering. Meaning that a majority of people can "vote them out" but fail becsuse how heavily gerrymandered the state is.

I'm going to keep repeating this, the majority of people did not want Roe v Wade over turned. The Republican party, are acting like tyrants. The Republican party is a minority party, who could only one through undemocratic means, such as never wining the popular vote for the last 20 years, but instead heavily gerrymandering to over represent themselves. Abused the senate to create a super majority within the supreme court.
There is no "your in for a rude awakening" because now no one has faith in this system anymore because of this.
We lost faith in our legislators years ago. Many of us lost faith in the police. And now, the highest court in the land, the part that is higher than the president, senate and house, just overturned a fundamental right.
I do not see this going well for longevity of the States.
If we lived in popular vote democracy, sure your statement could work. But we don't. We have the electoral collage to contest with. So letting States decide in this case doesn't enhance it. Because the majority of people already didn't want states or federal government to handle it, and instead just accepted as a general right. We lost the right to just believe that it'll be okay or it'll be an option because states can now legislate it. We now have to question over state lines. we lost a right,and we lost the protection to that right.
 

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I think that in the case of rape abortion is valid at any point of the pregnancy, independent of the woman's age.

Why? I mean it's not a baby's fault they were incorrectly conceived. Either they have moral value or they don't. If not, then why not allow it across the board?

And I think it's fair calling it a baby as "any point of the pregnancy" could be so close to birth so as to be practically indistinguishable from a literal baby.

So you have proposed that babies may be killed if they were incorrectly conceived. I'm not saying you can't have this opinion but you would have to justify it if the burden of proof is on the killer.
 

titan_tim

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I am not taking a position on abortion. You cannot force a unwilling parent to be a good one. You cannot force society to pay for unwanted children. If a woman in her prime is in a financially stable marriage but has been convinced by feminism that her office job is more important and then later desperately tries to conceive at 36, so be it. I´m not her father.
That's literally the main debate going on the board, and the crux of what the far right is trying to do. They are hoping to force unwilling potential parents to become parents. Which as you said, doesn't make them good parents.

I am against designer babies, btw. In order to get to your preferred baby, you´d have to get rid of a lot of unwanted ones. Since you give zero value to fetuses: How many fetuses are you willing to throw away in order to have your designer baby? 100? 1000? 1mio?
I wasn't the one who was picking and choosing a case of cells over baby Hitler, that was you deciding the fate of a baby which hasn't been molded by society to become a terrible person yet. I'd be more on the side that it's nurture over nature, and therefore the future of baby Hitler is unwritten.

In your defense though, you also went on to say that the future isn't decided for a baby, which I completely agree with. But that just makes your baby Hitler comment moot, and leaves the hypothetical open. Would you choose a case of embryo's over a fully developed baby?
 

UltraDolphinRevolution

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In your defense though, you also went on to say that the future isn't decided for a baby, which I completely agree with. But that just makes your baby Hitler comment moot, and leaves the hypothetical open. Would you choose a case of embryo's over a fully developed baby?
I cannot define an exact border line at which I would choose the baby. I just argue that fetuses are not worthless. Define how many fetuses you are willing to sacrifice for your dog. How about your dog as a fetus?

I said we do not know whether we live in a deterministic universe. There are good arguments on both sides.

I know the Bible verse you mentioned. I am not religious. I´d advocate for killing the rapist. But in some societies, it is the duty of the family to protect the virginity of a daughter; failing to do so is shameful in the eyes of society, to the point that marrying the rapist could be preferable. I don´t agree with it.
 

titan_tim

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I cannot define an exact border line at which I would choose the baby. I just argue that fetuses are not worthless. Define how many fetuses you are willing to sacrifice for your dog. How about your dog as a fetus?
I had a similar conversation where we went over a couple other scenarios of when we'd choose the case over the baby. The only one which made sense was if the human race was going extinct. Although we're clearly not in that situation presently. Also, I'd choose my dog. Or to further drive a point home, a dog I've never seen before.

I know the Bible verse you mentioned. I am not religious. I´d advocate for killing the rapist. But in some societies, it is the duty of the family to protect the virginity of a daughter; failing to do so is shameful in the eyes of society, to the point that marrying the rapist could be preferable. I don´t agree with it.
The whole prioritizing virginity is kind of outdated, but the idea of someone introducing someone else (especially children) to sex before they're ready is pure evil. If it can be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was committed, I'm all with you. Kill them off.
 

KennyAtom

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Lower taxes and less government intervention don't increase quality of life, higher wages and more government intervention increases quality of life. It isn't rocket science, government intervention means individuals can't ignore public interests in the pursuit of profits above all else i.e. polution and worker safety, and lower taxes means less money for public projects like roads and functioning sewers and ideally public health care like they have everywhere else in the world. That is how societies work~
lower taxes means higher wages, since businesses don't have to pay as much in taxes, therefore they will have an incentive to pay more in wages.

government intervention can be toned down a bit on our side as well, why can I go to war, vote, legally sign contracts, and get into debt, but not get a nice alcoholic beverage or smoke a pack of Newports? that's the kind of government intervention I'm on the side of removing, not stuff like "Oh you cannot make the environment worse" or intervention like that.
 

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Letting the states decide their own laws enhances democracy, so the Supreme Court decision is still the right thing in principle if you value democracy. Do you want to run the risk of a very conservative president getting elected & trying to pass restrictions at a federal level?

Now assuming this story of a 10 year old is true, it's clearly a case of rape and the victim would have to be more than 6 weeks pregnant as Ohio appears to be using the "heartbeat" law which caps abortions at 6 weeks, or at any week if the mother's life is threatened or "severely compromised physical health".

For adults I don't have too much of an issue with Ohio's law as adults are generally mature enough to identify rape and use contraception within 6 weeks of the crime. But children don't necessarily have that level of maturity so perhaps they deserve special consideration and should be allowed to have later abortions.

Now the hard question for you is: at what month would you cap abortions, and what would you do if this 10 year old girl was already past that month?
Why Supreme Court and not the people?
 

Foxi4

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I take it that you don’t share the view that it has two components - the “broad strokes” that can be generally considered objective (things normally associated with natural law as defined in Greek philosophy, like right to life) and the subjective which is socially constructed (let’s define that as various religious precepts and other moral dogma)? Because it can be both, as demonstrated by some (not all) opinions listed in your previous link?
 

lolcatzuru

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First, that was as much about the right to not be exposed to the disease by anti-vaxxers as much as it was about anything else.

Second, I don't remember anyone seriously talking about requiring vaccination by law. Sure, there were policy positions that would require proof of vaccination under specific circumstances (public transit, working in a healthcare facility, etc.), but nobody's bodily autonomy rights were ever being violated.

Try again.

But see the problem is that it didn't work either way, you can take all the magic needles and still get sick, try again.
 

Lacius

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But see the problem is that it didn't work either way, you can take all the magic needles and still get sick, try again.
Although effectiveness wanes over time, the vaccine is both safe and effective. It has saved millions of lives globally. If you don't want to get COVID-19, and if you don't want it to be serious if you do get it, the vaccine is the best choice you can make.

The conversation is about Roe, but feel free to try again.
 
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BitMasterPlus

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So you do believe the state should be allowed to violate a person's bodily autonomy rights? You're not making any sense.
No I don't think they should violate a person's bodily autonomy rights. Is that clear enough? It's not happening anyway so the point is moot.

In a perfect Republican world, it wouldn't be, cuz everyone would have guns. But if all you people argue about is "personal responsibility", then both scenarios of abortion and legal homicide should be fine with you, since in both situations you have people handling their own problems without relying on the government or anyone else.
To libs and people like you, you already think murder is legal when it suits your narrative ;)
Up my ass, where else? Just by reading the numerous posts in this thread alone you made.
I mean, I have numbers and statistics to back me up. You just have idealistic dreams of control and hatred to back you.
Other way around as per usual. You don't have shit but propaganda that you can gladly shove it up your ass.
Someone to debate with that isn't a Republican mouthpiece completely devoid of their own identity.
Once again, endless projection from a NPC liberal mouthpiece completely devoid on their own identity.
I'm still curious to see where these "millions" of Americans are. So far you've done nothing but tackle on one faithless argument after another to prove you actually have a platform to debate on, which you don't.

The traditional values you're mentioning? That's "all men are created equal" and the separation of church and state, both of which seem to be oblivious to you and your Nazi-esque cohorts. Remember, the Nazis dehumanized a whole lot of people, the way Republicans are now by equating women to incubators. But that's ok because you guys are for the baby, despite not caring about it the minute it's born anyway.
Go outside and see the support for this decision. Hell, you can see it online in most places. The problem is, with most, is that you don't want to. You don't value human life, at all. Be it any stage in a persons life cycle. If it were up to people like you, the human race would die.
the right to the choice, and bodily autonomy to an abortion, regardless of state, was indeed taken away. Instead of being accepted as a general right, you have to now question what state your living in, if you want to get one. And that's assuming state governments such as Texas, don't make it a felony to get an abortion out of state, which their platform wants to do that, so go figure. Which by the way, a felony removes your right to vote in most cases.
No rights are being taken away. Get over it.
 

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Although effectiveness wanes over time, the vaccine is both safe and effective. It has saved millions of lives globally. If you don't want to get COVID-19, and if you don't want it to be serious if you do get it, the vaccine is the best choice you can make.
I took the vaccine and I was fine, my friend took the vaccine and the next day vomited blood
 

lolcatzuru

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Although effectiveness wanes over time, the vaccine is both safe and effective. It has saved millions of lives globally.

so lemme ask you this, what are you mad at then? lets say for the sake of argument you go out somewhere, MRNA'd to the tits and you pass someone and somehow, we have no idea how since covid is magic, they get sick and die, is that on you? should there be hatred toward you? why is it that conformity is rewarded with a free ride?
 

SyphenFreht

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lower taxes means higher wages, since businesses don't have to pay as much in taxes, therefore they will have an incentive to pay more in wages.

Right but don't forget about standard of living costs and how they typically rise shortly after federal minimum wage increases, not to mention businesses raising their prices every time they suddenly have this extra money to pay employees with. It's why the "raise minimum wage" crowd gets it right on paper, but it never really makes a difference once it hits the streets.

I do have to agree with you on this point just a bit: general quality of life could be improved with government touch, as long as boundaries exist. The government already has too much overreach on a lot of levels and in a lot of places. Dialing back certain reaches and allowing other ones more reach could definitely makes things a lot better for everyone involved, but the aspect of what in particular is best reserved for another thread.

I can almost *guarantee* that if general quality of life was enhanced across the board in a way it couldn't be monetized for someone else's gain, you could definitely see a drop in the average number of abortions per year. While not all abortions grace this example by any means, a lot of these supposed abortions due to "irresponsibility" or "inconvenience" would disappear altogether if the mother generally felt safe and secure enough to keep the baby. Call that mentality what you will, it would cease to exist if there wasn't immediate fear for survival once that period skips.
 
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